Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

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Feb 22, 2014
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gillan1969 said:
on no...i now think you think i was taking the piss (no pun intended :) ) out of Swanson and not you....must find the double face palm photo... ;)

Relax. I agree with your sentiments.
 
Re: Re:

Saint Unix said:
Ventoux Boar said:
I know. Throw him out of the Academy ;) I thought I saw the Saint admiringly cite John's Science the other day. Was surprised he didn't spot the possible flaws.
I agree it isn't necessarily perfect data, but it is enough to determine that something monstrous happened in 2011.

Removing the outliers from the two samples won't change that.

the data is the data...the problem would have been not having the outliers in...we can all see the outliers and see what difference they make...that's the beauty of raw data...its not been manipulated before you get it...feel free to remove them and make your own calculations...
 
Feb 22, 2014
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Saint Unix said:
Ventoux Boar said:
I know. Throw him out of the Academy ;) I thought I saw the Saint admiringly cite John's Science the other day. Was surprised he didn't spot the possible flaws.
I agree it isn't necessarily perfect data, but it is enough to determine that something monstrous happened in 2011.

Removing the outliers from the two samples won't change that.

Do domestiques always ride full gas on TTs? If not, how can the data show anything meaningful? Please.
 
Jul 20, 2015
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gillan1969 said:
gazr99 said:
Saint Unix said:
gazr99 said:
Or on the other hand how those who don't like Sky, want to press a message of Sky are lying and definitely didn't have piss thrown at them, when there is evidence of people spitting at Froome showing discontent for the team and rider.

Maybe Sky paid the TV crews to edit the footage to make it seem like someone spat at Froome :rolleyes:
No-one is questioning whether there is discontent. There is. Not just from the public, but from the pro teams.

But one person spitting doesn't prove in any way that someone threw a bottle of urine at Froome. To use a line out of David Walsh, Teller of Truths' book: Where are the witnesses? Only Sky seem to have seen this alleged piss throwing.

I agree it doesn't prove anything. But it shows Sky are a targeted team, so there is a possibility it did happen and Sky weren't lying

Just found it coincidental that when there is evidence someone spat at Sky, arguments start over whether they were lying about piss being thrown at them.


because you've not followed the sport for very long...riders get spat at...they tend not to get piss thrown at them...

You know how long I've been following the sport and my knowledge on the history of sport? That's impressive.

Its not unheard off for riders to have had urine thrown at them or to have been punched as well
 
May 26, 2010
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Ventoux Boar said:
Urine pool:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/23251598

A spectator has thrown urine at Mark Cavendish while he was competing in the Tour de France.

It happened on stage 11 during the 33km time trial from Avranches to Mont Saint Michel on Wednesday.

The liquid was thrown from a bottle with the 28-year-old Cavendish initially thinking it was water before realising what it was from the taste.

Cosmo Catalano tweeted that this may have been fabricated

@Cyclocosm Jul 18

So shortly after the potential debunking of a 2013 urine-throwing incident, a second urine-throwing occurs?
 
Re: Re:

Ventoux Boar said:
Saint Unix said:
Ventoux Boar said:
I know. Throw him out of the Academy ;) I thought I saw the Saint admiringly cite John's Science the other day. Was surprised he didn't spot the possible flaws.
I agree it isn't necessarily perfect data, but it is enough to determine that something monstrous happened in 2011.

Removing the outliers from the two samples won't change that.

Do domestiques always ride full gas on TTs? If not, how can the data show anything meaningful? Please.

because if he was capable of producing the post '11 vuelta data....he wouldn't have been a domestique... ;)
 
Re: Re:

gillan1969 said:
the data is the data...the problem would have been not having the outliers in...we can all see the outliers and see what difference they make...that's the beauty of raw data...its not been manipulated before you get it...feel free to remove them and make your own calculations...
I agree. The two biggest problems with the approach Swanson has taken are:

1)That you don't get a true power estimate, you only get a comparison in power to the winner of the time trial, which brings us to the second problem, which is

2) That the quality of the winning rider changes with every race. While one time trial might be won by Martin or Cancellara, another might be won by say, Millar or Posthuma, who would both get creamed by the first two if they raced each other. The time loss per kilometer for Froome would go significantly down for Froome without the top guys in the race.

Those two problems still won't hide the fact that Froome suddenly started being competitive in time trials in 2011, even against the very best. That's something he had never, ever done before, at least at pro-conti level and above.
 
Re: Re:

gazr99 said:
Saint Unix said:
It's amazing how quick the Sky fans in here are to connect the dots when trying to prove Sky are telling the truth, whereas the blinkers are firmly on every time someone calls Sky on their merde.

Or on the other hand how those who don't like Sky, want to press a message of Sky are lying and definitely didn't have piss thrown at them, when there is evidence of people spitting at Froome showing discontent for the team and rider.

Maybe Sky paid the TV crews to edit the footage to make it seem like someone spat at Froome :rolleyes:

Maybe if Sky hadn't been so quick to connect piss-gate with the criticism they've been getting in the press regarding their performances and shoddy data release, it would be easier to believe. It has the smell of a shielding tactic due to Cound connecting the two on Twitter and the fans leaping to repeat the conclusion that because of Vayer, Tucker and others asking questions, the dirty French now feel liberated to throw piss on Sky riders. I would have taken the statement that it happened at face value without Cound linking it to valid critique. Much harder to take it at face value with no confirmation given how it was presented.

Throwing piss is disgusting, out of bounds, disrespectful to people and the sport, and definitely the maillot jaune. As is spitting. But I've seen no piss throwing. Merckx was punched, Armstrong spat at and cursed, as have been others. It's way over the top.
 
Jul 5, 2009
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Re: Re:

Saint Unix said:
gillan1969 said:
the data is the data...the problem would have been not having the outliers in...we can all see the outliers and see what difference they make...that's the beauty of raw data...its not been manipulated before you get it...feel free to remove them and make your own calculations...
I agree. The two biggest problems with the approach Swanson has taken are:

1)That you don't get a true power estimate, you only get a comparison in power to the winner of the time trial, which brings us to the second problem, which is

2) That the quality of the winning rider changes with every race. While one time trial might be won by Martin or Cancellara, another might be won by say, Millar or Posthuma, who would both get creamed by the first two if they raced each other. The time loss per kilometer for Froome would go significantly down for Froome without the top guys in the race.

Those two problems still won't hide the fact that Froome suddenly started being competitive in time trials in 2011, even against the very best. That's something he had never, ever done before, at least at pro-conti level and above.

But that's the beauty of this type of comparison. Without even knowing his power output it eliminates course, conditions, and everything except who showed up to race as to how well he performed.

Get rid of the outliers. Prior to TdS 2011 he had never placed top ten. After that point he never place *outside* of a top ten.

Exclude the outliers. He still improved by 4 s/km in only a couple of months.

You can look for explanations and should.

-Level of competition changed? Well that's silly. You mean he only raced against good TT'ers prior to TdS 2011 and never again?
-He changed motivation? You really believe that a pro never tried to do well in a TT even though he was fully capable? One day he woke up and thought "eff it. As of today I will be a champion"?
-Bilharzia? You mean he was sick for three years and yet 5 months after his (third?) dose it finally clicked in and he was cured?
-He changed what he was doping with? Well yeah, that does sound reasonable. We've seen a lot of that in the last couple of decades. <--- I'm going with this one unless something more plausible shows up

John Swanson
 
Re: Re:

ScienceIsCool said:
But that's the beauty of this type of comparison. Without even knowing his power output it eliminates course, conditions, and everything except who showed up to race as to how well he performed.

Get rid of the outliers. Prior to TdS 2011 he had never placed top ten. After that point he never place *outside* of a top ten.

Exclude the outliers. He still improved by 4 s/km in only a couple of months.

You can look for explanations and should.

-Level of competition changed? Well that's silly. You mean he only raced against good TT'ers prior to TdS 2011 and never again?
-He changed motivation? You really believe that a pro never tried to do well in a TT even though he was fully capable? One day he woke up and thought "eff it. As of today I will be a champion"?
-Bilharzia? You mean he was sick for three years and yet 5 months after his (third?) dose it finally clicked in and he was cured?
-He changed what he was doping with? Well yeah, that does sound reasonable. We've seen a lot of that in the last couple of decades. <--- I'm going with this one unless something more plausible shows up

John Swanson
I'm not disagreeing with you at all. The improvement is enormous, and as you say, there are no plausible explanations for this aside from illegal methods. I'm just saying that comparing for example his Commonwealth Games time trial with a race where the field is strong wouldn't work, but there's enough data to even out the errors caused by things like this.

The conclusion you have drawn is pretty obvious either way. I've yet to see anything that suggests otherwise.
 
Feb 22, 2014
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Re: Re:

Saint Unix said:
ScienceIsCool said:
But that's the beauty of this type of comparison. Without even knowing his power output it eliminates course, conditions, and everything except who showed up to race as to how well he performed.

Get rid of the outliers. Prior to TdS 2011 he had never placed top ten. After that point he never place *outside* of a top ten.

Exclude the outliers. He still improved by 4 s/km in only a couple of months.

You can look for explanations and should.

-Level of competition changed? Well that's silly. You mean he only raced against good TT'ers prior to TdS 2011 and never again?
-He changed motivation? You really believe that a pro never tried to do well in a TT even though he was fully capable? One day he woke up and thought "eff it. As of today I will be a champion"?
-Bilharzia? You mean he was sick for three years and yet 5 months after his (third?) dose it finally clicked in and he was cured?
-He changed what he was doping with? Well yeah, that does sound reasonable. We've seen a lot of that in the last couple of decades. <--- I'm going with this one unless something more plausible shows up

John Swanson
I'm not disagreeing with you at all. The improvement is enormous, and as you say, there are no plausible explanations for this aside from illegal methods. I'm just saying that comparing for example his Commonwealth Games time trial with a race where the field is strong wouldn't work, but there's enough data to even out the errors caused by things like this.

The conclusion you have drawn is pretty obvious either way
. I've yet to see anything that suggests otherwise.

The data sucks, but your conclusions are sound. Welcome aboard. If this had been submitted from the opposing point of view it would be laughed at. Sorry.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Ventoux Boar said:
Urine pool:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/23251598

A spectator has thrown urine at Mark Cavendish while he was competing in the Tour de France.

It happened on stage 11 during the 33km time trial from Avranches to Mont Saint Michel on Wednesday.

The liquid was thrown from a bottle with the 28-year-old Cavendish initially thinking it was water before realising what it was from the taste.

I am not sure how Mark knows what piss tastes like?

Anyone else here able to reliably identify urine from a liquid's taste?

:confused:
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Re: Re:

gillan1969 said:
Ventoux Boar said:
Saint Unix said:
Ventoux Boar said:
I know. Throw him out of the Academy ;) I thought I saw the Saint admiringly cite John's Science the other day. Was surprised he didn't spot the possible flaws.
I agree it isn't necessarily perfect data, but it is enough to determine that something monstrous happened in 2011.

Removing the outliers from the two samples won't change that.

Do domestiques always ride full gas on TTs? If not, how can the data show anything meaningful? Please.

because if he was capable of producing the post '11 vuelta data....he wouldn't have been a domestique... ;)

And they would have known about the potential for producing the post-2011 Vuelta data through testing.
40 minutes max to do a ramped step test for VO2max, or a few months of power files from training and racing at a peak for more useful race-specific data.

You know, from a team that has the most detailed scrutineers of data and detail around?

Funny that eh?
 
Jul 8, 2009
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Dear Wiggo said:
Ventoux Boar said:
Urine pool:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/23251598

A spectator has thrown urine at Mark Cavendish while he was competing in the Tour de France.

It happened on stage 11 during the 33km time trial from Avranches to Mont Saint Michel on Wednesday.

The liquid was thrown from a bottle with the 28-year-old Cavendish initially thinking it was water before realising what it was from the taste.

I am not sure how Mark knows what piss tastes like?

Anyone else here able to reliably identify urine from a liquid's taste?

:confused:

I think almost everyone would recognise the smell on the other hand. It's probably just ***** reporting.
 
Re: Re:

Ventoux Boar said:
The data sucks, but your conclusions are sound. Welcome aboard. If this had been submitted from the opposing point of view it would be laughed at. Sorry.

And I'm sure you can give a good reason for why it sucks, with your deep understanding of cycling performance?
 
May 26, 2010
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Re: Re:

dwyatt said:
Dear Wiggo said:
Ventoux Boar said:
Urine pool:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/23251598

A spectator has thrown urine at Mark Cavendish while he was competing in the Tour de France.

It happened on stage 11 during the 33km time trial from Avranches to Mont Saint Michel on Wednesday.

The liquid was thrown from a bottle with the 28-year-old Cavendish initially thinking it was water before realising what it was from the taste.

I am not sure how Mark knows what piss tastes like?

Anyone else here able to reliably identify urine from a liquid's taste?

:confused:

I think almost everyone would recognise the smell on the other hand. It's probably just shitty reporting.

I almost never get it on my other hand or any hand for that matter.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Re: Re:

dwyatt said:
Dear Wiggo said:
Ventoux Boar said:
Urine pool:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/23251598

A spectator has thrown urine at Mark Cavendish while he was competing in the Tour de France.

It happened on stage 11 during the 33km time trial from Avranches to Mont Saint Michel on Wednesday.

The liquid was thrown from a bottle with the 28-year-old Cavendish initially thinking it was water before realising what it was from the taste.

I am not sure how Mark knows what piss tastes like?

Anyone else here able to reliably identify urine from a liquid's taste?

:confused:

I think almost everyone would recognise the smell on the other hand. It's probably just shitty reporting.

Be interesting to mix some beer and wine and let it ferment on a hot, summer's day in a cup in the sunshine and see what it smelt and tasted like when thrown on a hot and sweaty rider. This explanation seems equally plausible to me.
 
Feb 22, 2014
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Re: Re:

Saint Unix said:
Ventoux Boar said:
The data sucks, but your conclusions are sound. Welcome aboard. If this had been submitted from the opposing point of view it would be laughed at. Sorry.

And I'm sure you can give a good reason for why it sucks, with your deep understanding of cycling performance?

;)
 
Re: Re:

Dear Wiggo said:
Ventoux Boar said:
Urine pool:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/23251598

A spectator has thrown urine at Mark Cavendish while he was competing in the Tour de France.

It happened on stage 11 during the 33km time trial from Avranches to Mont Saint Michel on Wednesday.

The liquid was thrown from a bottle with the 28-year-old Cavendish initially thinking it was water before realising what it was from the taste.

I am not sure how Mark knows what piss tastes like?

Anyone else here able to reliably identify urine from a liquid's taste?

:confused:

Depends, but salty apparently.
 
Re: Re:

Dear Wiggo said:
dwyatt said:
Dear Wiggo said:
Ventoux Boar said:
Urine pool:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/23251598

A spectator has thrown urine at Mark Cavendish while he was competing in the Tour de France.

It happened on stage 11 during the 33km time trial from Avranches to Mont Saint Michel on Wednesday.

The liquid was thrown from a bottle with the 28-year-old Cavendish initially thinking it was water before realising what it was from the taste.

I am not sure how Mark knows what piss tastes like?

Anyone else here able to reliably identify urine from a liquid's taste?

:confused:

I think almost everyone would recognise the smell on the other hand. It's probably just shitty reporting.

Be interesting to mix some beer and wine and let it ferment on a hot, summer's day in a cup in the sunshine and see what it smelt and tasted like when thrown on a hot and sweaty rider. This explanation seems equally plausible to me.

What will be interesting is if Sky produce a French tour winner / contender. Wonder what the reaction will be then ...
 
Sep 29, 2012
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TheSpud said:
What will be interesting is if Sky produce a French tour winner / contender. Wonder what the reaction will be then ...

Given neither Landa nor Intxausti nor the Izagirre brothers come from France, I don't see that happening any time soon. We'll know within a week or so for sure though...
 
Jul 8, 2009
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Re: Re:

TheSpud said:
Dear Wiggo said:
Ventoux Boar said:
Urine pool:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/23251598

A spectator has thrown urine at Mark Cavendish while he was competing in the Tour de France.

It happened on stage 11 during the 33km time trial from Avranches to Mont Saint Michel on Wednesday.

The liquid was thrown from a bottle with the 28-year-old Cavendish initially thinking it was water before realising what it was from the taste.

I am not sure how Mark knows what piss tastes like?

Anyone else here able to reliably identify urine from a liquid's taste?

:confused:

Depends, but salty apparently.

As salty as the clinic?