Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Darryl Webster]

OK Darryl I agree with some of what you are saying....some



Honestly I am fed up with teams training in tenerife being used as "proof".

I get that you pretty much suspect the peloton. Fine. And I get that you don't like the history of some of those at BC, especially Geert. I think he was a mistake and a really bad move. But everyone else, well, no one involved in cycling over the last 30 years is going to be free of any dodgy associations, but things are not the same as when JH and others were there. Even close. And Darryl, honestly I thought you'd know enough people still to know that. I also thought you might understand exactly what Bradley had been through since joining BC, and what he has sacrificed and how hard he has worked, and why he'd be p*ssed at what some were saying. I thought you'd also be able to acknowledge that these "jumps" in performance you talk of, actually don't exist with BW. His progression on the road has been on a consistent arc since the end of 2008.

I get that you got burnt by this sport. I did too, but I didn't hate it as a result. I have always been open eyed about what I saw and what has been going on. And yes things are far from perfect, especially in terms of the passport, but it's more than any other sport is doing. No matter what is done people will always seek advantage. But if we have all become so cynical that we miss when a change does come, then that is going to be really sad.

If Bradley has ever doped and it comes out I will personally seek him out and thank him for ruining any belief I had in this sport. If however, everything possible is done by him to prove he hasn't been doping, how many will have missed an opportunity to celebrate something worth celebrating? And how many of the w*nkers in armchairs will seek him out to apologise?

Peace

What is it about Tennerife ? you might ask. Well its nothing to do with hills/ mountain but accessibility for unannounced medical controls.
You acknowledge Geert,s as " a bad move" but given Sky,s stated intentions of being the dawn of a new era its just a little bit to much of a " bad move " to be credible. What "special knowledge" could Geert possibly have that Sky would risk taking him on ?. For Brailford to now say, as he has said, " we,l investigate his past" now is a bit rich. If he,s so special me finks that that research would have been done.
What Brad "has been through" cuts zero muster with me. Brad and every single rider at this level puts in unimaginable amounts of work and sacrifice, to suggest Brad is a special case in the department is disingenuous to say the least.
That so many of those from the last 30 years have dodgy histories is a very poor defence as to why there back room staff at Sky.
You think not one but several , have changed there spots?... that's a lot of credit you give people who in my direct experience would sell there own grandmothers if it benefited em.
Finally, because I haven't a patriotic bone in my body For me there's nothing to celebrate. I couldn't care less about the nationality of the winner , I really couldn't , my only interest is seeing a credible performance and that, in this case means more than just Brads riding but that of the team..and there we see a leap this season that looks very dubious.
Its nothing personal against Brad or anyone else..it never has been for me..I don't invest any emotion in it that way.
After an entire lifetime of following cycle racing during which there might only have been perhaps 1 or two clean TDF winners I think I and others are more than entitled to be extremely cynical for three weeks every July ..still enjoy watching it though

 

[roundabout]

Wiggins had 12% body fat when he was the Olympic champion?

Tell me moar.

 

[straydog]

So not only was Straydog being patronising, he also either didn't know his stuff or deliberately misrepresented the situation. Interesting.

wow...reading about an event you didn't see and reading that wiggins attacked from the first climb somehow means I misrepresented it him being able to climb way back in 2005?

ok...got your level mate....back to your armchair...back to your hand....I'm off for a ride

 

[Dr. Maserati]

For the kimmage thing...this will go in circles....DB saying Brad isn't happy exactly supports what I said. Kimmage surmised Brad was "pulling the plug". No DB did. He is the boss. And Brad wasn't happy because kimmage had seen him dropped on training rides and didnt want him there rubbing his face in it when what was inevitably going to happen, happened.

Cutting body fat from 12% to just over 4% does not result in a huge loss of muscle mass. The clue is in the word "fat". Losing excess muscle where it isn't needed for road racing as opposed to track (i.e upper body muscle, which is required to pull on the bars when starting a pursuit to get the huge fixed gear turning) also helps. The idea that Wiggins couldn't TT in 07 or before is ridiculous....see my earlier post.

2007 1st dauphine prologue
4th ITT TDF
4th prologue TDF
1st ITT poitou charentes
1st Dunkirk ITT

2005
2nd (maybe third) ITT tour de l'avenir
1st Stage 8 into Aurillac, with 7 climbs. http://www.eurosport.fr/cyclisme/tour-de-l-avenir/2005/wiggins-a-contre-courant_sto763211/story.shtml< the report for you....saves googling

2003
1st ITT tour de l'avenir


You watched the whole season? And where did you watch the tour de l'avenir? Would really like to know. (careful here you may end up looking an idiot)

Hi Straydog,
Can you show me (you can use google) where this statement (and others about PK boring the *** off people) came from? Thanks.

That DB broke the news to PK does not change what Caruut stated - Brad blocked Kimmge.

 

[straydog]

Wiggins had 12% body fat when he was the Olympic champion?

Tell me moar.

No his body fat was 12% at the end of 2008. Not In Beijing. But it definitely wasn't 4% either.

 

[straydog]

Hi Straydog,
Can you show me (you can use google) where this statement (and others about PK boring the *** off people) came from? Thanks.

That DB broke the news to PK does not change what Caruut stated - Brad blocked Kimmge.

Sorry Mas. Not everything I say is based on a google quote. Some of it comes from horses mouths. If you look very hard through certain twitter accounts you might find a few back and forths regarding kimmage, and feel free to ask Fran, Sutton, Rod or anyone at Sky how "entertaining" PK is. Just "tweet" them.

it's by the by anyway....but you knew that....but please do show me where kimmage ever intimated he thought Brad was doping if he did.

 

[roundabout]

No his body fat was 12% at the end of 2008. Not In Beijing. But it definitely wasn't 4% either.

So what's the point of your 12% reference? To show how chubby Wiggins can get during winter?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Sorry Mas. Not everything I say is based on a google quote. Some of it comes from horses mouths. If you look very hard through certain twitter accounts you might find a few back and forths regarding kimmage, and feel free to ask Fran, Sutton, Rod or anyone at Sky how "entertaining" PK is. Just "tweet" them.

So - I have to check twitter? To find something that backs up what you say?

it's by the by anyway....but you knew that....but please do show me where kimmage ever intimated he thought Brad was doping if he did.

Deflection noted - and avoided.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Yeah if Froome were to get popped it would devalue Wiggins' victory considerably.

If anyone at Sky got popped during this TdF, that would be a happy accident.
Between the weakness of the bio-passport program and the UCI's tendency to pick winners, they are blessed. It's more like Entertainment wrestling every year.

I'm looking forward a few months from now when Froome trades out of Sky believing it's actually him and not the drugs that got him into second then gets popped. Does that sound familiar to anyone?

 

[Sigmund]

What Brad "has been through" cuts zero muster with me. Brad and every single rider at this level puts in unimaginable amounts of work and sacrifice, to suggest Brad is a special case in the department is disingenuous to say the least.

I don t get this. Again obviously everyone works hard, but someone is still the best. Might not be from working hardest, but there must be something. May be genes, may be something else (and may be doping). A lot of people could demolish the oppostion before EPO and blood doping. I mean Merckx won his first TdF by 18 min!

 

[straydog]

What is it about Tennerife ? you might ask. Well its nothing to do with hills/ mountain but accessibility for unannounced medical controls.
You acknowledge Geert,s as " a bad move" but given Sky,s stated intentions of being the dawn of a new era its just a little bit to much of a " bad move " to be credible. What "special knowledge" could Geert possibly have that Sky would risk taking him on ?. For Brailford to now say, as he has said, " we,l investigate his past" now is a bit rich. If he,s so special me finks that that research would have been done.
What Brad "has been through" cuts zero muster with me. Brad and every single rider at this level puts in unimaginable amounts of work and sacrifice, to suggest Brad is a special case in the department is disingenuous to say the least.
That so many of those from the last 30 years have dodgy histories is a very poor defence as to why there back room staff at Sky.
You think not one but several , have changed there spots?... that's a lot of credit you give people who in my direct experience would sell there own grandmothers if it benefited em.
Finally, because I haven't a patriotic bone in my body For me there's nothing to celebrate. I couldn't care less about the nationality of the winner , I really couldn't , my only interest is seeing a credible performance and that, in this case means more than just Brads riding but that of the team..and there we see a leap this season that looks very dubious.
Its nothing personal against Brad or anyone else..it never has been for me..I don't invest any emotion in it that way.
After an entire lifetime of following cycle racing during which there might only have been perhaps 1 or two clean TDF winners I think I and others are more than entitled to be extremely cynical for three weeks every July ..still enjoy watching it though

Firstly Darryl, I'm not British or English so I have no dog in that particular fight.

As to your assertion of Tenerife's inaccessibility to testers....honestly...when was the last time you were there? Cos I don't think it was recently. I call bull. Steaming Bull. Sorry but I do. As I said, where is the alternative to Tenerife for passes over 1500m year round?

Do leopards change their spots? Well, yes I think they do. You might remember a positive EPO test after the Roy Thame a few years ago, that came about after a domestic DS with a less than perfect reputation reported his suspicions regarding a rider from another team. Aside from that BC have pretty much moved on the back roomers with "baggage". No more Max etc. It's all sports scientists and Steve Peters now.

Of course fans have the right to be cynical....of course they do....but people also have a responsibility to back up accusations with proof. Something that is entirely lacking here.

"tenerife, lost weight, won stuff"....come on darryl...you are clearly capable of critical thinking, and after your own experiences I thought you might have some sense of responsibilty.

Be cynical...sure....be suspicious....but be logical and at least hold up your "proof" to some kind of credible scrutiny, not trial by the internet.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

I don t get this. Again obviously everyone works hard, but someone is still the best. Might not be from working hardest, but there must be something. May be genes, may be something else (and may be doping). A lot of people could demolish the oppostion before EPO and blood doping. I mean Merckx won his first TdF by 18 min!

Whatever the "something" was that enabled Merckx to win his first Tour by 18 minutes probably isn't something shared by someone who came 123rd in his first Tour.

 

[Caruut]

For the kimmage thing...this will go in circles....DB saying Brad isn't happy exactly supports what I said. Kimmage surmised Brad was "pulling the plug". No DB did. He is the boss. And Brad wasn't happy because kimmage had seen him dropped on training rides and didnt want him there rubbing his face in it when what was inevitably going to happen, happened.

If you carry on misrepresenting the situation, then I suppose circles are inevitable. Why has no-one from Sky come out and called Kimmage a liar? Possibly because it's true. Bradley didn't want Kimmage there, and asked Brailsford to tell him not to be there. Of course Brad would say something like "He was annoying" whether his motives for wanting Kimmage out were dirty or clean. He's not going to say "I'm doping loads so I don't want Kimmage spilling the beans. Ooops, I just did that."

Cutting body fat from 12% to just over 4% does not result in a huge loss of muscle mass. The clue is in the word "fat". Losing excess muscle where it isn't needed for road racing as opposed to track (i.e upper body muscle, which is required to pull on the bars when starting a pursuit to get the huge fixed gear turning) also helps. The idea that Wiggins couldn't TT in 07 or before is ridiculous....see my earlier post.

Where have you got this 12% figure from, sorry?

2007 1st dauphine prologue
4th ITT TDF
4th prologue TDF
1st ITT poitou charentes
1st Dunkirk ITT

2005
2nd (maybe third) ITT tour de l'avenir
1st Stage 8 into Aurillac, with 7 climbs. http://www.eurosport.fr/cyclisme/tour-de-l-avenir/2005/wiggins-a-contre-courant_sto763211/story.shtml< the report for you....saves googling

2003
1st ITT tour de l'avenir

You watched the whole season? And where did you watch the tour de l'avenir? Would really like to know. (careful here you may end up looking an idiot)

I'm not too worried about looking like an idiot. You called me a July fan, I said I watch the whole season to mean I am not limited to July. I prefer classics to GTs anyway, so I'd make a pretty terrible July fan. I didn't watch the Tour de l'Avenir 2005, I just read the race report, yes. There is a huge difference between taking a mountain stage from an early break and taking one as one of the favourites. The fact that you didn't mention it shows you are posting with an agenda.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Firstly Darryl, I'm not British or English so I have no dog in that particular fight.

As to your assertion of Tenerife's inaccessibility to testers....honestly...when was the last time you were there? Cos I don't think it was recently. I call bull. Steaming Bull. Sorry but I do. As I said, where is the alternative to Tenerife for passes over 1500m year round?

Do leopards change their spots? Well, yes I think they do. You might remember a positive EPO test after the Roy Thame a few years ago, that came about after a domestic DS with a less than perfect reputation reported his suspicions regarding a rider from another team. Aside from that BC have pretty much moved on the back roomers with "baggage". No more Max etc. It's all sports scientists and Steve Peters now.

Of course fans have the right to be cynical....of course they do....but people also have a responsibility to back up accusations with proof. Something that is entirely lacking here.

"tenerife, lost weight, won stuff"....come on darryl...you are clearly capable of critical thinking, and after your own experiences I thought you might have some sense of responsibilty.

Be cynical...sure....be suspicious....but be logical and at least hold up your "proof" to some kind of credible scrutiny, not trial by the internet.

Me finks your mind is made up here Straydog. As far as your concerned there's clearly nothing questionable, all is above board , Sky are clean and therefore by implication so must be the rest of the peloton ( or at least most of it) and all is sweetness and light and every one has seen the error of there ways. Cus if they aint they,d better go asking for there money back.
As this section is called "The Clinic" for a reason and us doubters are just embittered and twisted cynics .. "wasters " I think Brad would call us, why are you posting here?
I've tried to be honest and frank with you but its clear your nothing but a rabid fanboy who has put his capacity for deductive reasoning away for now in order to bathe in jingoistic flag waiving because after 99 years of waiting Britain is about to have a Brit winner of the TDF....and therefore unlike perhaps as many as 98 previous ones MUST be clean.
Yeh, a powerful argument you put up. Now go put you Sky top on, waive you union jack and enjoy yourself.
Denial..much more than a river in Egypt,

 

[straydog]

So - I have to check twitter? To find something that backs up what you say?


Deflection noted - and avoided.

Mas....you truly are special...no one like you. I do remember having some reasonably coherent and relevant discussions with you...but man, you are pushing my rosy memory of you.

I know your raison d'etre is to disagree with folk like me, but come on! If you want to know how entertaining Kimmage is...as I said ask people directly, don't take my word for it.

As I said ask DB, Sutton, Fran Millar, Dave Millar, Brad, G.....heck maybe contact him yourself. You'll be wildly entertained by his response I am sure. He is the life and soul and not at all tedious.

If you are really desperate, PM me and I will let you know how to contact him (and David Walsh) and you can spend an evening at Sean's being hugely entertained by them both

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Mas....you truly are special...no one like you. I do remember having some reasonably coherent and relevant discussions with you...but man, you are pushing my rosy memory of you.

I know your raison d'etre is to disagree with folk like me, but come on! If you want to know how entertaining Kimmage is...as I said ask people directly, don't take my word for it.

As I said ask DB, Sutton, Fran Millar, Dave Millar, Brad, G.....heck maybe contact him yourself. You'll be wildly entertained by his response I am sure. He is the life and soul and not at all tedious.

If you are really desperate, PM me and I will let you know how to contact him (and David Walsh) and you can spend an evening at Sean's being hugely entertained by them both

More deflection.
Why would Kimmages personality have anything to do with him not being allowed follow the team?

Are you trying to suggest team marginal gains only worked out that having Kimmage might not be a good idea and a distraction after they had agreed to him coming with them?

 

[Sigmund]

Whatever the "something" was that enabled Merckx to win his first Tour by 18 minutes probably isn't something shared by someone who came 123rd in his first Tour.

I agree, but performance is not proof of doping in itself.
Throughout TdF history it seems to be the rule rather than he exception that someone dominates. Hinault won his second by 13 min, it was almost half an hour down to number three, his third win was by 14 min.

I am certainly not comparing Wiggns or Froome to Hinault, my point is only that the fact that someone is a lot better than the rest is not proof of doping.

Hence looking for the explanation in other factors is relevant, and not something to ridicule.

Amongst the 3000+ post I have found only two arguments that in my opinion carry weight. The hiring of a very dodgy doctor, Froome's and Wiggin's poor and good but not great pedigree palmares.

 

[straydog]

If you carry on misrepresenting the situation, then I suppose circles are inevitable. Why has no-one from Sky come out and called Kimmage a liar? Possibly because it's true. Bradley didn't want Kimmage there, and asked Brailsford to tell him not to be there. Of course Brad would say something like "He was annoying" whether his motives for wanting Kimmage out were dirty or clean. He's not going to say "I'm doping loads so I don't want Kimmage spilling the beans. Ooops, I just did that."



Where have you got this 12% figure from, sorry?


I'm not too worried about looking like an idiot. You called me a July fan, I said I watch the whole season to mean I am not limited to July. I prefer classics to GTs anyway, so I'd make a pretty terrible July fan. I didn't watch the Tour de l'Avenir 2005, I just read the race report, yes. There is a huge difference between taking a mountain stage from an early break and taking one as one of the favourites. The fact that you didn't mention it shows you are posting with an agenda.

Firstly, well done on your answer regarding Brad's TT palmares from 2007....I think that's called avoidance.

12%....6 foot 2...81 kg...do the maths.

And of course Kimmage would say "Brad didn't want me there" cos that's the best story....why not email him and ask him yourself his thoughts...and incidentally whether he thinks Brad is up to anything.

I have no agenda in sharing the tour de l'avenir results from 2005....and the fact he won from a break I am afraid is utterly irrelevant....you don't win a stage with 7 climbs if you can't climb....regardless of the circumstances.

You may have missed the point here....I don't think you don't have the right to question...go for it....but at least be honest enough to say you have nothing more than...."lost weight, went to tenerife, won stuff". And maybe have the balls to accuse him in person or at least not behind an anonymous moniker. Otherwise you kind of look like a coward.

 

[Darryl Webster]

. And maybe have the balls to accuse him in person or at least not behind an anonymous moniker. Otherwise you kind of look like a coward.

Bit rich ..Im asuming your parents aint native Americans and decided to call you "Straydog"?

 

[straydog]

More deflection.
Why would Kimmages personality have anything to do with him not being allowed follow the team?

Are you trying to suggest team marginal gains only worked out that having Kimmage might not be a good idea and a distraction after they had agreed to him coming with them?

Mas...no deflection...simply put.....Brad was badly out of form and below expectations, which kimmage had already witnessed and written about and he didn't want him sat on his shoulder constantly rubbing his face in it.

Don't forget he spent a season with him at Garmin prior. So it wasn't like Brad didn't know what he could be like.

 

[straydog]

Bit rich ..Im asuming your parents aint native Americans and decided to call you "Straydog"?

Who am I accusing through my anonymity though? And why would assume that?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Firstly, well done on your answer regarding Brad's TT palmares from 2007....I think that's called avoidance.

12%....6 foot 2...81 kg...do the maths.

And of course Kimmage would say "Brad didn't want me there" cos that's the best story....why not email him and ask him yourself his thoughts...and incidentally whether he thinks Brad is up to anything.

Why would anyone need to email PK when he said quite clearly:
"It was Wiggins specifically who rejected it..."

Dear Paul, did you really really really mean that?
PS How much to the nearest million did you get for that 'story' to Velonation?

I have no agenda in sharing the tour de l'avenir results from 2005....and the fact he won from a break I am afraid is utterly irrelevant....you don't win a stage with 7 climbs if you can't climb....regardless of the circumstances.

You may have missed the point here....I don't think you don't have the right to question...go for it....but at least be honest enough to say you have nothing more than...."lost weight, went to tenerife, won stuff". And maybe have the balls to accuse him in person or at least not behind an anonymous moniker. Otherwise you kind of look like a coward.

If that was all that was to it, that would be great.

Just don't forget, Linders, Froome etc.
I know you want to talk about Bradleys prologue results and stuff - but this thread is about Sky.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Mas...no deflection...simply put.....Brad was badly out of form and below expectations, which kimmage had already witnessed and written about and he didn't want him sat on his shoulder constantly rubbing his face in it.

Not even Brailsford has come up with this.
Can you link it - and no, I have no intention of pming you.

Don't forget he spent a season with him at Garmin prior. So it wasn't like Brad didn't know what he could be like.

No he did not.
PK was with Garmin in 08, Brad was with Columbia then.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Who am I accusing through my anonymity though? And why would assume that?

Your accusing those here, such as myself , of having no reason to be sceptical. That,s who.
Your also personalising this at every turn, fudging / ignoring points and generally here to tell us just how wonderful Sky/ Wiggo/ Brailsford and co are and how all of us "have NO evidence".
No we don't have "evidence" cus this ain`t a court of law its a bloody forum for the discussion of, hopefully , informed opinion NOT emotive wishful thinking.

 

[straydog]

emotive wishful thinking.

is exactly what it is...completely.

I am not accusing you of being skeptical, you said that. I merely said if you are going to accuse, come up with some proof, not hearsay.

Mas...you're right 2008 kimmage was with Garmin. Well done. So do you think Wiggins is doping then? Or that there is a team wide programme at Sky?