Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[maxmartin]

Wiggins will win the race knowing that not only he is not the best rider in the race but not even the best rider on his team. The cocktail is definitely helping Froome more than anybody else (including Roger Dodger).

I actually find this very entertaining. Farce is always amusing in its middle stages.

I am pretty sure SKY perfect the receipt a little bit, Anti viral drug is definitely somewhere to help you loose the weight without losing power in TT

 

[straydog]

Lots of peeps thought I doped Straydog, its somat ya have to accept .
The "issue" here with Sky is a comparative one not a absolute one.
On power data figures alone its plausible Wiggo is clean but looking at the bigger picture, the public history of the back room staff and the not so public, the illogical rational of reasons given for the jumps in performance over the rest , the choice of Tennerife for the training camp, the employment of Geert its difficult to have faith.
Though this thread deals with Sky my scepticism is there for pretty much the whole pro game. GT,s, particularly the 3rd week present real difficulties regards being ridden clean and I have always had a view that the expectation that they should be is somewhat unrealistic. My own salutation , given that the idea that GT,s aint about to be cut down a week , would be that a team of doctors be on the race provide by the nations public health department and only those doctors be allowed on the race. That every rider is then able to have there blood values checked daily and using whatever methods , Iv,s ,injections, oral or suppository deemed advisable , that riders blood values can be restored to within healthy parameters.
NO team doctors should be allowed anywhere near the race. DS,s should be licensed and none, no matter how minor there own doping infringements have been, If they have history, they should never be granted one. All sounds a bit draconian I guess but pro cycling, the UCI and race organisers, even the cycling press, have only got themselves to blame for the mass of scepticism that exists.
None of the above ideas deals with what is probably the biggest issue of all , PEDS use in training. That,s a huge minefield that I guess the Bio Passport is intended to help detect but I fear its failing miserably.

OK Darryl I agree with some of what you are saying....some

I am actually all for testing and protocols for being as draconian as possible. The no doctors at a race rule. Absolutely. But like you say it wouldn't stop Doctors from helping teams in training. Anyway, an argument for another thread.

Honestly I am fed up with teams training in tenerife being used as "proof". So where in Europe in spring would you have teams train either at altitude or in the mountains? The Alps? Well fine if they want to ski but not much good if they want to ride bikes. Majorca? I've been up puig major in march and april and almost frozen my nuts off. And Frankly it's hardly in the same league as a climb.

I get that you pretty much suspect the peloton. Fine. And I get that you don't like the history of some of those at BC, especially Geert. I think he was a mistake and a really bad move. But everyone else, well, no one involved in cycling over the last 30 years is going to be free of any dodgy associations, but things are not the same as when JH and others were there. Even close. And Darryl, honestly I thought you'd know enough people still to know that. I also thought you might understand exactly what Bradley had been through since joining BC, and what he has sacrificed and how hard he has worked, and why he'd be p*ssed at what some were saying. I thought you'd also be able to acknowledge that these "jumps" in performance you talk of, actually don't exist with BW. His progression on the road has been on a consistent arc since the end of 2008.

I get that you got burnt by this sport. I did too, but I didn't hate it as a result. I have always been open eyed about what I saw and what has been going on. And yes things are far from perfect, especially in terms of the passport, but it's more than any other sport is doing. No matter what is done people will always seek advantage. But if we have all become so cynical that we miss when a change does come, then that is going to be really sad.

If Bradley has ever doped and it comes out I will personally seek him out and thank him for ruining any belief I had in this sport. If however, everything possible is done by him to prove he hasn't been doping, how many will have missed an opportunity to celebrate something worth celebrating? And how many of the w*nkers in armchairs will seek him out to apologise?

Peace

p.s anyone who accuses me of doping when I raced, or even jokes that we all must have done it, I get mightily p*ssed off at, and I was never as good as you. I also get that my admiration of one particular cyclist might seem to be contrary to what I feel now, but actually from when I stopped competing I just accepted things as they were and assumed all or most were up to what I had seen in France and Belgium. I now hope that slowly but surely the tide is turning.

 

[Ripper]

...

Well, the thread is not on one tree, e.g. Wiggo, it is on the whole team. Sky is dodgier than dodgy my friend. Dodgier the dodgy.

Not really to call Darryl's posting anything negative, as he's kept it on the up and up quite well (nicer than me )

BTW - I was really a fan of Sky for the first year or so. I have pretty strong ties to the UK, so I was keenly interested when things got started. But the whole charade has become just that.

 

[Turner29]

With apologies to Ian Dury...

No PEDs please, we're British

The myth of British "honour" does not extend much further than the UK borders.

 

[Clemson Cycling]

The myth of British "honour" does not extend much further than the UK borders.

Yeah just look at Africa

 

[Caruut]

He has already missed the boat on doing "everything possible", though. He blocked Kimmage, he didn't publish his profiles, he refused to answer the doping questions, he didn't make any noise about Leinders and it kills me how much contempt he has for the fans.

I am afraid that unless they explain exactly how they've done this, I cannot be fully confident in them. "Hard work" and "sacrifice" do not count - everyone works hard.

His progression on the road has been on a consistent arc since he made an enormous jump.

 

[straydog]

Well, the thread is not on one tree, e.g. Wiggo, it is on the whole team. Sky is dodgier than dodgy my friend. Dodgier the dodgy.

Not really to call Darryl's posting anything negative, as he's kept it on the up and up quite well (nicer than me )

BTW - I was really a fan of Sky for the first year or so. I have pretty strong ties to the UK, so I was keenly interested when things got started. But the whole charade has become just that.

Please educate me. It's not like I don't know any of them. So please do tell me. Some links would be good to their dodgyness. Something tells me I'll be more likely to give you information but never the less I'd really like to hear your evidence. Or will it just be "trained in Tenerife, lost weight, won stuff"?

 

[Sigmund]

He has already missed the boat on doing "everything possible", though. He blocked Kimmage, he didn't publish his profiles, he refused to answer the doping questions, he didn't make any noise about Leinders and it kills me how much contempt he has for the fans.

I am afraid that unless they explain exactly how they've done this, I cannot be fully confident in them. "Hard work" and "sacrifice" do not count - everyone works hard.

His progression on the road has been on a consistent arc since he made an enormous jump.

A lot of posters in this thread poh pohs the working hard and sacrificing line. Obviously everybody works hard and sacrifice a lot, but someone has to work the hardest, and smartest. Not saying that is is Wiggins or Froome, But in a clean peloton they wouldn't all Finnish at the same time would they? Even though everyone has worked hard and sacrificed?

 

[straydog]

He has already missed the boat on doing "everything possible", though. He blocked Kimmage, he didn't publish his profiles, he refused to answer the doping questions, he didn't make any noise about Leinders and it kills me how much contempt he has for the fans.

I am afraid that unless they explain exactly how they've done this, I cannot be fully confident in them. "Hard work" and "sacrifice" do not count - everyone works hard.

His progression on the road has been on a consistent arc since he made an enormous jump.

Actually he did publish his results in 2009, and more than likely will do again this year.

He never "blocked" Kimmage. Paul spent much of the 2010 season embedded with Sky, and never raised any questions or suspicions regarding anything untoward. What he did do was be a royal pain in the a** at camps, bore the hind legs off everyone and witness Brad having a few mares when it became clear his focus in training might have slipped from his usual standard.

"Unless they explain exactly how they have done this"....which bit are you having difficulty with? Cos as far as I can see it's all there, they have shared, you just don't believe it. Fine. Your prerogative. Something tells me you don't have much actual elite athletic experience so forgive me if I picture you in an armchair practicing onanism. My prerogative too.

And please educate me on the enormous jump. When did this happen?

 

[taiwan]

They're talking W/kg on BBC Radio 4 atm, saying that cycling's cleaner...

And please educate me on the enormous jump. When did this happen?

Between the 08 Giro and the 09 Tour, maybe the 08/09 off season, or am I walking into a trap

 

[Caruut]

Actually he did publish his results in 2009, and more than likely will do again this year.

I'll believe that when I see it.

He never "blocked" Kimmage. Paul spent much of the 2010 season embedded with Sky, and never raised any questions or suspicions regarding anything untoward. What he did do was be a royal pain in the a** at camps, bore the hind legs off everyone and witness Brad having a few mares when it became clear his focus in training might have slipped from his usual standard.

It's been discussed in this thread already. Kimmage was due to observe the team during the 2010 Tour, then Wiggins called it off at the last minute.

"Unless they explain exactly how they have done this"....which bit are you having difficulty with? Cos as far as I can see it's all there, they have shared, you just don't believe it. Fine. Your prerogative.

It's all so vague though. They're just trotting out Armstrong-esque excuses for it. There's nothing revolutionary, and if it's good enough to turn Wiggins from autobus to dominant Tour winner, I don't understand how it could be anything but revolutionary.

Something tells me you don't have much actual elite athletic experience so forgive me if I picture you in an armchair practicing onanism. My prerogative too.

"Not much" would be an exaggeration. None at all. Nothing whatsoever. I still have my opinion though. Why exactly are you picturing me ****ing in chair, anyway?

And please educate me on the enormous jump. When did this happen?

When he went from the autobus to 4th. He switched focus, right. His prologuing has stayed about the same during that time, though, so was he carrying 7kg (or 12kg, the figure seems disputed) of dead weight when he was an Olympic champion?

 

[Ripper]

Please educate me. It's not like I don't know any of them. So please do tell me. Some links would be good to their dodgyness. Something tells me I'll be more likely to give you information but never the less I'd really like to hear your evidence. Or will it just be "trained in Tenerife, lost weight, won stuff"?

Already's been done and not in the mood to repeat. Trees and Forest. Dodgier than dodgy. Not that I can really fault, given the system and history.

 

[Dr.Sahl]

They're talking W/kg on BBC Radio 4 atm, saying that cycling's cleaner...



Between the 08 Giro and the 09 Tour, maybe the 08/09 off season, or am I walking into a trap

Yes actually they are all clean and how dare people say British people lie and cheat!!! they have never done that before...

Its obivous that the other teams was just stupid and had *Fat* riders...


Warning, this post may contain sacasm

 

[straydog]

I'll believe that when I see it.



"Not much" would be an exaggeration. None at all. Nothing whatsoever. I still have my opinion though. Why exactly are you picturing me ****ing in chair, anyway?



When he went from the autobus to 4th. He switched focus, right. His prologuing has stayed about the same during that time, though, so was he carrying 7kg (or 12kg, the figure seems disputed) of dead weight when he was an Olympic champion?

Ok to your first two points...google...try it. Kimmage did spend time with Sky. Brad didn't pull the plug on him at the tour. DB did, when he realised that Brad's form wasn't where they were hoping and din't want the extra pressure of having an annoying irishman on the bus p*ssing off his team leader every day.

You pulling your chain in a chair is a reference to Brad's quote...again google if you need help


As to the last point....4K IP...carrying 80kg is actually an advantage...there's this little thing called momentum on an oval....I know I know....you have no experience so how were you supposed to know. But please show me one single pursuiter who is as skinny as Wiggins is now.

Ok seriously I am getting fed up of anyone who watches cycling in July and then goes back to the premiership in August. Try googling Wiggins palmares pre his switch to focusing solely on the road. Tour de l'avenir for example. Mountain stage win etc etc


Track cycling is a completely different discipline, and the IP particularly so, with different training goals and criteria to road cycling. Wiggin's main source of income and livelyhood was British Cycling, and that was dependant on his focus being solely on the Track. As I explained before, after 2008 when it became clear that the UCI would cut the IP from 2012, he followed what many at BC had been telling him he was capable of, namely becoming a successful road stage rider, by switching his focus from merely prologues and the IP to becoming a more rounded road cyclist.

 

[straydog]

Yes actually they are all clean and how dare people say British people lie and cheat!!! they have never done that before...

Its obivous that the other teams was just stupid and had *Fat* riders...


Warning, this post may contain sacasm

does it also contain sarcasm?

I thought sacasm was when you left you T patch on too long?

 

[Dr.Sahl]

does it also contain sarcasm?

I thought sacasm was when you left you T patch on too long?

I forgot one letter and you repsond like this ^^ lol

*Throws a bone for the straydog*

 

[Benotti69]

He never "blocked" Kimmage. Paul spent much of the 2010 season embedded with Sky, and never raised any questions or suspicions regarding anything untoward. What he did do was be a royal pain in the a** at camps, bore the hind legs off everyone and witness Brad having a few mares when it became clear his focus in training might have slipped from his usual standard.

Link?

I call BS.

Kimmage interviewed Cavendish, not a sky rider then and it was published The Sunday Times, Sun 18 April 2010

Kimmage interviewed Wiggins and it was published The Sunday Times, Sun 27 June 2010

Kimmage then wrote a piece called, 'Sky sing hopeful tune but Wiggins may be one-hit wonder' it was published The Sunday Times, Sun 18 July 2010

That is not imbedded journalism. If Kimmage was imbedded for a most of 2010 he would've written a book.

Your obvious dislike of kimmage has shown you generally like to post lies about the guy, which is the case yet again.

Trolling pure and simple.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Ok to your first two points...google...try it. Kimmage did spend time with Sky. Brad didn't pull the plug on him at the tour. DB did, when he realised that Brad's form wasn't where they were hoping and din't want the extra pressure of having an annoying irishman on the bus p*ssing off his team leader every day.

You said earlier Kimmage was embedded with Sky for much of 2010 - he was on a camp for a (IIRC) weekend in the Pyrenees.

Also - google says "It was Wiggins specifically who rejected it"

You pulling your chain in a chair is a reference to Brad's quote...again google if you need help


As to the last point....4K IP...carrying 80kg is actually an advantage...there's this little thing called momentum on an oval....I know I know....you have no experience so how were you supposed to know. But please show me one single pursuiter who is as skinny as Wiggins is now.

Ok seriously I am getting fed up of anyone who watches cycling in July and then goes back to the premiership in August. Try googling Wiggins palmares pre his switch to focusing solely on the road. Tour de l'avenir for example. Mountain stage win etc etc


Track cycling is a completely different discipline, and the IP particularly so, with different training goals and criteria to road cycling. Wiggin's main source of income and livelyhood was British Cycling, and that was dependant on his focus being solely on the Track. As I explained before, after 2008 when it became clear that the UCI would cut the IP from 2012, he followed what many at BC had been telling him he was capable of, namely becoming a successful road stage rider, by switching his focus from merely prologues and the IP to becoming a more rounded road cyclist.

Didn't you join the forum in July 2010?

 

[Dr.Sahl]

You said earlier Kimmage was embedded with Sky for much of 2010 - he was on a camp for a (IIRC) weekend in the Pyrenees.

Also - google says "It was Wiggins specifically who rejected it"




Didn't you join the forum in July 2010?

Atleast some of the new july joiners post facts when they post.. (yes I rejoined this year aswell, long time stalker and old poster)

But its very funny that he post like that and blame newcomers

Next thing will be that he refuse that Wiggins ever said, that if teams had just 1% chance of being involved in doping ring/doctors they should be exluded from TDF... ohh and the rant about GL... haha

 

[Caruut]

Let me just by saying I really appreciate the fact that you've taken the time to patronise me. It's an honour.

Ok to your first two points...google...try it. Kimmage did spend time with Sky. Brad didn't pull the plug on him at the tour. DB did, when he realised that Brad's form wasn't where they were hoping and din't want the extra pressure of having an annoying irishman on the bus p*ssing off his team leader every day.

That is in direct contradiction with what Kimmage said in his Velonation interview

“It was Wiggins specifically who rejected it. I went over to Manchester, I sat down with Brailsford and everything was sorted. I hired a van specifically for the purpose of following them for the Tour,” he told VeloNation. “A day before I was to go to Amsterdam, Fran Millar called me and said there was a problem. I went to Amsterdam, sat down with them and Brailsford said, ‘basically, look, Wiggins is not happy. Is it okay if you pick up the team in eight days time?” I said ‘no, it is from the start or nothing,’ and that is where it was left.

You pulling your chain in a chair is a reference to Brad's quote...again google if you need help

Ahaha, yes I missed the reference - the quote is actually in my sig.

As to the last point....4K IP...carrying 80kg is actually an advantage...there's this little thing called momentum on an oval....I know I know....you have no experience so how were you supposed to know. But please show me one single pursuiter who is as skinny as Wiggins is now.

Is it carrying 80kg that's the advantage, or is it the extra muscle mass that makes the 80kg that gives the advantage? This "momentum on an oval" thing - I can't find a single reference to it on Google. Thankfully, I am rather better at physics than I am at sports, so if you explain what you're trying to say, I should be able to understand it.

Of course no pursuiters are as skinny as Wiggins. That's what's so weird about the fact that his prologuing seems not to have taken a hit, while his long ITTs and climbing are better than ever.

Ok seriously I am getting fed up of anyone who watches cycling in July and then goes back to the premiership in August. Try googling Wiggins palmares pre his switch to focusing solely on the road. Tour de l'avenir for example. Mountain stage win etc etc

I have watched the whole season. Didn't know that was a mountain stage - still can't find the profile anywhere, or a report, so I have no idea how he won it or anything like that. Was it from a break, or what? Either way, that edition was won by Lars Bak, so exactly how mountainous was it?

Track cycling is a completely different discipline, and the IP particularly so, with different training goals and criteria to road cycling. Wiggin's main source of income and livelyhood was British Cycling, and that was dependant on his focus being solely on the Track. As I explained before, after 2008 when it became clear that the UCI would cut the IP from 2012, he followed what many at BC had been telling him he was capable of, namely becoming a successful road stage rider, by switching his focus from merely prologues and the IP to becoming a more rounded road cyclist.

Yes, I get that, his focus switched. Does it not even ring any alarm bells that an IP rider switches to GC contender? When has that ever happened before. One thing that makes me very suspicious is that despite focusing so much more on climbing and long TTs, his prologues have remained just as good (if not better). I am not saying that I know he is dirty - he might not be. Certainly looks to me like he is, and nothing that has happened has changed my mind significantly.

Why Geert Leinders?

 

[roundabout]

Yes, Wiggins won from a break.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road.php?id=road/2005/sep05/avenir05/avenir058

 

[taiwan]

And please educate me on the enormous jump. When did this happen?

As I explained before, after 2008 when it became clear that the UCI would cut the IP from 2012, he followed what many at BC had been telling him he was capable of, namely becoming a successful road stage rider, by switching his focus from merely prologues and the IP to becoming a more rounded road cyclist.

So basically you confirm there was a jump in performance between 2008 and 2009, kthx.

 

[Caruut]

Yes, Wiggins won from a break.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road.php?id=road/2005/sep05/avenir05/avenir058

So not only was Straydog being patronising, he also either didn't know his stuff or deliberately misrepresented the situation. Interesting.

 

[roundabout]

So not only was Straydog being patronising, he also either didn't know his stuff or deliberately misrepresented the situation. Interesting.

Profile

http://web.archive.org/web/20100717...etour.fr/stf/avenir/2005/images/profil_08.gif

And I think Mr Dog is simply repeating what Wiggins wrote

 

[straydog]

Let me just by saying I really appreciate the fact that you've taken the time to patronise me. It's an honour.



That is in direct contradiction with what Kimmage said in his Velonation interview

“It was Wiggins specifically who rejected it. I went over to Manchester, I sat down with Brailsford and everything was sorted. I hired a van specifically for the purpose of following them for the Tour,” he told VeloNation. “A day before I was to go to Amsterdam, Fran Millar called me and said there was a problem. I went to Amsterdam, sat down with them and Brailsford said, ‘basically, look, Wiggins is not happy. Is it okay if you pick up the team in eight days time?” I said ‘no, it is from the start or nothing,’ and that is where it was left.



Ahaha, yes I missed the reference - the quote is actually in my sig.



Is it carrying 80kg that's the advantage, or is it the extra muscle mass that makes the 80kg that gives the advantage? This "momentum on an oval" thing - I can't find a single reference to it on Google. Thankfully, I am rather better at physics than I am at sports, so if you explain what you're trying to say, I should be able to understand it.

Of course no pursuiters are as skinny as Wiggins. That's what's so weird about the fact that his prologuing seems not to have taken a hit, while his long ITTs and climbing are better than ever.



I have watched the whole season. Didn't know that was a mountain stage - still can't find the profile anywhere, or a report, so I have no idea how he won it or anything like that. Was it from a break, or what? Either way, that edition was won by Lars Bak, so exactly how mountainous was it?

For the kimmage thing...this will go in circles....DB saying Brad isn't happy exactly supports what I said. Kimmage surmised Brad was "pulling the plug". No DB did. He is the boss. And Brad wasn't happy because kimmage had seen him dropped on training rides and didnt want him there rubbing his face in it when what was inevitably going to happen, happened.

Cutting body fat from 12% to just over 4% does not result in a huge loss of muscle mass. The clue is in the word "fat". Losing excess muscle where it isn't needed for road racing as opposed to track (i.e upper body muscle, which is required to pull on the bars when starting a pursuit to get the huge fixed gear turning) also helps. The idea that Wiggins couldn't TT in 07 or before is ridiculous....see my earlier post.

2007 1st dauphine prologue
4th ITT TDF
4th prologue TDF
1st ITT poitou charentes
1st Dunkirk ITT

2005
2nd (maybe third) ITT tour de l'avenir
1st Stage 8 into Aurillac, with 7 climbs. http://www.eurosport.fr/cyclisme/tour-de-l-avenir/2005/wiggins-a-contre-courant_sto763211/story.shtml< the report for you....saves googling

2003
1st ITT tour de l'avenir


You watched the whole season? And where did you watch the tour de l'avenir? Would really like to know. (careful here you may end up looking an idiot)