Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[straydog]

Several.

That's not point I'm making. Sky are so strong that the yellow jersey doesn't even need to attack to gain time.

Never seen anything like that before. Ever.

really? never? ever?

Did you not watch 2010? How many stages did Contador win again?

2009? One and a TT

2005? How many stages did LA win? Er...one...a TT.

Come on Hog, surely you can do better than that.

 

[Parrot23]

Miguel, of all people, lol, very recently (the 17th) presented this gift to Brad:

http://instagram.com/p/NLkA6BzL06/

Hint, hint.....

 

[Cerberus]

Armstrong 1999-2005 - oh, hang on, that doesn't help my "clean" argument does it

That's alright, we forgive you.

 

[straydog]

I know that wasn't your point, but I'm sure you mentioned to prove something. Had a quick glance through Indurain's tour wins and all I saw was TT wins - but I didn't check thoroughly.

During his 5 TDF wins Indurain only won TT stages. Never a road stage.

He won a mountain stage in 1990 but was tenth over all at 10 minutes.

Come on Hog....this many mistakes is making you look bad dude

 

[straydog]

Several....er actually just one...but you know that counts as several for the purposes of my argument

That's not point I'm making. Sky are so strong that the yellow jersey doesn't even need to attack to gain time.

Never seen anything like that before. Ever.

fixed it for you

 

[Ripper]

On IPhone so bare with me:
1) There is no way on this earth a gold medallist 4000m pursuit champion had 10% body fat, that is ludicrous
2)Cancellara still managed to stick it to the rest of the field in the ITT and the prologue - except for Wiggo and renowned ITTer Froome. And it has been postulated Froome sat up to allow a Wiggo victory, and both eased through the corners etc while everyone else Canc and Evans included hammered it taking risks
3) as has been said many times but ignored, they do NOT ride tempo, they raise the pace to capture escapes and destroy the yellow group in the process. Last night both Wiggo and Froome had to respond to Nibali without domestique support, and reeled him in with consummate ease. It was clear Froome was going to keep going, Wiggo had to dissuade him

I've been away for a week, so it's been interesting catching up

You make great points here. Indeed, there are many small points that point towards Sky doing something more than marginal gains, more dedication, blah blah blah. Many.

The believers in Sky and fanboys will nitpick each one to death. These are folks who have trouble seeing the forest for the tree. It has really become a pointless debate. They get mad 'cause "there's no proof". "If the glove don't fit, you must acquit".

Whatever.

The performances are not so OTT as 6.8 w/kg. But they are riding so fast that it is burning everyone off. This with riders who did not show that capacity. Etc, etc.

No real point in hammering out the same arguments back and forth. I will wait to see what the future holds.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

They haven't dominated it though, the battle for the GC has been between a lone Nibali and Team Sky, it's probably the weakest GC race in the history of the Tour and thanks to radios and team orders it's possible that the winner might not even be the strongest rider there.

No real sustained MTF's, long downhill runs to finishes, long TT's. Say for instance Wiggins had crashed in the first TT and had gone into the 2nd week a minute behind Nibali, or TJVG, it would have been a completely different race because Wiggins doesn't have the punch to attack them in the mountains and claw back time.

Even on the Sprint stages (15) both Lotto and OGE refused to sit on the front even though Sky said they weren't going to chase down the break. It doesn't take a genious to work out that the other teams aren't going to bust a gut in the mountain with no rewards, especially since most of them have had men in the breaks with a chance of winning stages (FDJ, Euro, Rabo).

The highlighted is the point - this is the Sky thread afterall.

What Wiggins is currently doing is not a complete surprise (or in itself suspicious) - it is the team that raises an eyebrow.
Wiggos biggest threat is his own team mate - his domestique.
Rogers is at his T-mobile levels.
Then add the dodgy Doc, and there are obvious questions to be asked.

 

[Darryl Webster]

During his 5 TDF wins Indurain only won TT stages. Never a road stage.

He won a mountain stage in 1990 but was tenth over all at 10 minutes.

Come on Hog....this many mistakes is making you look bad dude

I think , and im sure, he,l correct me I'm wrong Hogs point isn't stage wins but lack of attacks. Its not been at all uncommon to see the Yellow jersey attack, drag others with him from further down the GC that then win the stage while the jersey has gained time of the other GC challengers.
It seems Wiggo has barely ridden the length of a football pitch on the front .
Now this doesn't make it wrong but it certainly doesn't make for much of a race.

 

[taiwan]

I think , and im sure, he,l correct me I'm wrong Hogs point isn't stage wins but lack of attacks. Its not been at all uncommon to see the Yellow jersey attack, drag others with him from further down the GC that then win the stage while the jersey has gained time of the other GC challengers.
It seems Wiggo has barely ridden the length of a football pitch on the front .
Now this doesn't make it wrong but it certainly doesn't make for much of a race.

Yeah if Froome were to get popped it would devalue Wiggins' victory considerably.

 

[Bonkstrong]

The highlighted is the point - this is the Sky thread afterall.

What Wiggins is currently doing is not a complete surprise (or in itself suspicious) - it is the team that raises an eyebrow.
Wiggos biggest threat is his own team mate - his domestique.
Rogers is at his T-mobile levels.
Then add the dodgy Doc, and there are obvious questions to be asked.

But my point is that the team aren't doing anything out of the ordinary, there's no superior domination of a strong field as been alluded to by The Hog. The Sky team is riding each individual member into the ground leaving just Froome and Wiggins at the end of the day, on stages practically taylor made for them where attacks would be futile thanks to the long downhill run-ins.

I agree there are questions to be asked around Froome and the Doc, but this whole "Team Sky Domination" is a myth - Even sat 1 & 2 on the podium they aren't even the leading team.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

But my point is that the team aren't doing anything out of the ordinary, there's no superior domination of a strong field as been alluded to by The Hog. The Sky team is riding each individual member into the ground leaving just Froome and Wiggins at the end of the day, on stages practically taylor made for them where attacks would be futile thanks to the long downhill run-ins.

I am not interested in TheHogs point (refer to them if you want to do that) - but to claim Sky are not doing anything out of the ordinary is a stretch.

I agree there are questions to be asked around Froome and the Doc, but this whole "Team Sky Domination" is a myth - Even sat 1 & 2 on the podium they aren't even the leading team.

Again - I won't label you with generalizations. Please don't lump me in with things I did not say.

But Sky are by far the best team - always in control, and have 1 & 2 on GC - dismissing things as myths is not an answer.

 

[straydog]

I think , and im sure, he,l correct me I'm wrong Hogs point isn't stage wins but lack of attacks. Its not been at all uncommon to see the Yellow jersey attack, drag others with him from further down the GC that then win the stage while the jersey has gained time of the other GC challengers.
It seems Wiggo has barely ridden the length of a football pitch on the front .
Now this doesn't make it wrong but it certainly doesn't make for much of a race.

Darryl, this is the bit I don't get


lack of attacks? barely riding the length of a football pitch on the front?

And these two issues point to him being a doper?

Listen, I get that people might not like the way Sky have bought up talent like Porte, EBH and to some extent Rogers and Froome and have used them for one end only thereby rendering the race predictable or "boring" in the process. Fine. They don't like it. But being boring is hardly "proof" of doping.

I also get that more or less anyone "performing" at a race like the TDF is going to draw suspicion, witness the Voeckler threads from last year being re opened after yesterday, but can you honestly tell me that when you saw this years profile you didn't think it had Sky and Wiggins written all over it?

And honestly, what have they done that you find so unbelievable? Wiggins particularly. Following wheels on the most expensively assembled team of modern times? Putting less than a minute into Spartacus on a rolling TT? Putting the same time into Evans as he did at last years Dauphine?

I am not a Sky "fanboy" or even a Wiggins one. But I haven't seen anything from him to ring alarm bells.

I don't like to discuss "suspicions" per se. I think it's pretty poor, but I kind of get it with Froome, but Wiggins? See my earlier post regarding his palmares dating back from 2007 at the TDF and Dauphine and beyond in races like the tour de l'avenir. And Darryl you should know more than most that his sole focus up until 2008 was the IP, and that with what he was being offered in terms of support from BC towards that goal, compared to what Cofidis were offering, surely you'd understand that that was his only focus.

He was only really allowed off the leash on the road in 09, when he knew there was no real olympic track cycle to start training for in 2012 as the IP was dropped. Sutton and everyone else at BC had always told him he was capable of more on the road, and finally at the end of 08 he finally said he'd give it a proper try.

Garmin allowed him the freedom to train his way, and that essentially meant that BC and particularly Sutton were his coaching resource, and the 2009 TDF was the result. His "transformation" hasn't been extraordinary, he has always been able to climb, but at 82kg (which as you'd know is a pretty advantageous weight in IP) he was never going keep up with anyone worth mentioning.

He hasn't suddenly become a gazelle, leaping away from the likes of Nibali and Evans. He is still a diesel, grinding at his own pace. And with an ability to suffer. Any lightning turns of speed uphill and he struggles. I honestly don't get how that is suspicious. He got angry with anonymous internet users accusing him? Must be guilty.

I have to admit to being a bit disappointed actually Darryl. Riders like you and Graeme were always inspirational, and honestly watching the money behind guys like Boardman and what it helped him achieve always rankled, and I get why Sky and anything Murdoch related wouldn't sit well with you, but dude, this is just gossip mongering, and frankly pretty baseless.

One question, you were an awesome rider, who I am pretty certain never doped, would you be angry if I or anyone else in the know suggested you had?

Peace

 

[andy1234]

I'm sorry but put simply anyone that thinks 'warming down' is new is a fool. It's really that simple.

If you'd ever been involved in sport, not specifically cycling, but just any sport, you would know that warming down is part and parcel of any form of exercise.

It's so funny to me that people can be so simple as to suggest that teams, or any athelete for that matter, doesn't warm down after not only competition, but any form of training.

Simply put, no one is claiming that warming down is a new concept
of course its not.

What teams have not done before, is team wide warm downs after road stages.
Teams, sitting on a Turbo trainer after a 5 or 6 hour road stage simply did not happen before Sky.

Some here claim that it did, and even stated which teams were doing it, but they were lying.

Whether warming down has any benefit is another discussion.

 

[Bonkstrong]

Again - I won't label you with generalizations. Please don't lump me in with things I did not say.

But Sky are by far the best team - always in control, and have 1 & 2 on GC - dismissing things as myths is not an answer.

Please don't accuse me of doing things I have not. A generalization is just that, it is not an accusation that you have stated a fact.

There is no answer, only discussion. If I cannot discuss their percieved domination vs. the actual events then we won't have much to talk about.

I agree there are questions to be asked around Froome and the handling of the appointment of doc Lienders. Many questions.

 

[UlleGigo]

Simply put, no one is claiming that warming down is a new concept
of course its not.

What teams have not done before, is team wide warm downs after road stages.
Teams, sitting on a Turbo trainer after a 5 or 6 hour road stage simply did not happen before Sky.

Some here claim that it did, and even stated which teams were doing it, but they were lying.

Whether warming down has any benefit is another discussion.

So you start by saying no one is claiming Sky are the first to introduce warming down and finish by saying Sky are the first to introduce warming down. I see.

Please don't bother me with a response. I'm not interested in discussing whether or not athletes perform warm downs after exercise. I fear my sides may burst from the amusement.

 

[Darryl Webster]

One question, you were an awesome rider, who I am pretty certain never doped, would you be angry if I or anyone else in the know suggested you had?

Peace

Lots of peeps thought I doped Straydog, its somat ya have to accept .
The "issue" here with Sky is a comparative one not a absolute one.
On power data figures alone its plausible Wiggo is clean but looking at the bigger picture, the public history of the back room staff and the not so public, the illogical rational of reasons given for the jumps in performance over the rest , the choice of Tennerife for the training camp, the employment of Geert its difficult to have faith.
Though this thread deals with Sky my scepticism is there for pretty much the whole pro game. GT,s, particularly the 3rd week present real difficulties regards being ridden clean and I have always had a view that the expectation that they should be is somewhat unrealistic. My own salutation , given that the idea that GT,s aint about to be cut down a week , would be that a team of doctors be on the race provide by the nations public health department and only those doctors be allowed on the race. That every rider is then able to have there blood values checked daily and using whatever methods , Iv,s ,injections, oral or suppository deemed advisable , that riders blood values can be restored to within healthy parameters.
NO team doctors should be allowed anywhere near the race. DS,s should be licensed and none, no matter how minor there own doping infringements have been, If they have history, they should never be granted one. All sounds a bit draconian I guess but pro cycling, the UCI and race organisers, even the cycling press, have only got themselves to blame for the mass of scepticism that exists.
None of the above ideas deals with what is probably the biggest issue of all , PEDS use in training. That,s a huge minefield that I guess the Bio Passport is intended to help detect but I fear its failing miserably.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Please don't accuse me of doing things I have not. A generalization is just that, it is not an accusation that you have stated a fact.

There is no answer, only discussion. If I cannot discuss their percieved domination vs. the actual events then we won't have much to talk about.

I agree there are questions to be asked around Froome and the handling of the appointment of doc Lienders. Many questions.

Indeed.
There is little to "discuss" if you add in things that people do not say and then spend your time dismissing it.

 

[taiwan]

Man, how soon are we actually going to know what we have been watching?

 

[metaCYCLE]

absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Dr.Sahl]

Man, how soon are we actually going to know what we have been watching?

Never anything official...

But one thing is certain, this win from Sky will always be remember as the most boring tour and without the top GC contenders.

Thats even with a clean peleton.

 

[UlleGigo]

Wiggins will win the race knowing that not only he is not the best rider in the race but not even the best rider on his team. The cocktail is definitely helping Froome more than anybody else (including Roger Dodger).

I actually find this very entertaining. Farce is always amusing in its middle stages.

 

[Bicycle tramp]

No PEDs please, we're British

With apologies to Ian Dury...

No PEDs please, we're British

Tommy Simpson was a juicer.
Thought he wouldn't be a loser.
Booze and bennies were his booster,
With implications for his future

There ain't half been some cheating *******s
(Rotten bleeders, rotten bleeders)
There ain't half been some cheating bas-tards.

David Millar caught with Edgar.
He must have been a PED injector.
He wasn't a dirty team infector,
That was some Flemish director.

There ain't half been some cheating *******s
(Rotten bleeders, rotten bleeders)
There ain't half been some cheating bas-tards.

Yates can't be classed as honest.
He claims his team is the purest.
In eighty-nine he failed a dope test,
and thinks fans aren't the sharpest.

There ain't half been some cheating *******s.
Probably got help from their DS
(who had help from his DS).
Now that we've had some,
Let's hope there's not many more to come.

There ain't half been some cheating *******s
(Rotten bleeders, rotten bleeders)
There ain't half been some cheating bas-tards.

 

[Ferminal]

Today wasn't very impressive, we already knew they had the top2 climbers in the race. Liquigas were going very slow, that they were only a minute or so quicker than Valverde in the last 40km says it all.

 

[UlleGigo]

Today wasn't very impressive, we already knew they had the top2 climbers in the race. Liquigas were going very slow, that they were only a minute or so quicker than Valverde in the last 40km says it all.

You're a funny guy.

 

[andy1234]

So you start by saying no one is claiming Sky are the first to introduce warming down and finish by saying Sky are the first to introduce warming down. I see.

Please don't bother me with a response. I'm not interested in discussing whether or not athletes perform warm downs after exercise. I fear my sides may burst from the amusement.

You clearly are unable to read.
Thank you for alerting me. Next time I will draw pictures for you.

All the best.