Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[The Cobra]

Excuse me?

You were the one suggesting warming down after a race is the secret sauce to Sky's success!

Then you disappeared from the thread once it was proved that the technique has been around for years.

Well I never.

Kettle pot black.

Lol, didnt you claim that teams have been warming down for years after road stages by posting an irrelevent article about Lim using ice packs to cool down riders??

Also no one ever claimed that warming down after a race was the sole difference between flying up climbs and being in the gruppeto. It simply one of the many things to suggest that Sky prepare everything meticulously to ensure maximum performance from there riders which may give them a slight edge.

 

[Cavalier]

If Sky hired the best riders in the race why is it surprising to see them there near the end?? Porte and Rogers have performed as they would have if they were riding for themselves. Be up there with the best for a long time, but then blow up when the real contendors start attacking.

I'm actually surprised someone genuinely believes this response. That Rogers would have been capable of this as a protected rider, when not doping - when he couldn't manage to sit in the group with 10 left when he was visiting Freiburg two or three times a month.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Lol, didnt you claim that teams have been warming down for years after road stages by posting an irrelevent article about Lim using ice packs to cool down riders??

Also no one ever claimed that warming down after a race was the sole difference between flying up climbs and being in the gruppeto. It simply one of the many things to suggest that Sky prepare everything meticulously to ensure maximum performance from there riders which may give them a slight edge.

There is nothing new about warming down after any athletic performance..its been common and advised practice since the early 80,s at least. Doing it on turbo trainers is just a little bit easier than doing it on busy roads around a race finish.

 

[taiwan]

Straight question - Your power over say an hour depends on your lactate threshold or your aerobic threshhold or both? I'm unsure of the relationship between the max power level at which your body can process the lactate, and the max power your body can sustain aerobically. Apologies if the question itself is stupid.

 

[simo1733]

Perhaps someone here knows a lot more about this but body fat levels bellow 5 or 6% seem , from my reading , to seriously dangerously low with high risks of organ damage / failure .
For Wiggo to be claiming 4% four years ago and then claim further losses seems to me to be incredulous to say the least.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Body_fat_percentage

As far as I know, if your bodyfat falls to 5% you will no longer be able to process fat soluble vitamins and would have to rely on injections.

 

[Darryl Webster]

As far as I know, if your bodyfat falls to 5% you will no longer be able to process fat soluble vitamins and would have to rely on injections.

That,s interesting Simo. Any links to back that up?. Back in the 80,s using calliper measurements ( not the most accurate method) I was 10st 4lbs and im 5` 10" , my estimated body fat level was 7% . Race reports often described me as looking rather gaunt so I,m struggling with the whole idea that anyone could be racing a GT at 4% or even less. It just doesn't compute for me.

 

[taiwan]

As has been mentioned in this thread many many posts ago. The power output of the peloton has dropped significantly since the mid 00's. If Wiggins has been clean throughout his entire career and was managing to top 5 TT's against dopers is it really that much of a push to imagine that he is now winning TT against a much cleaner field? I would imagine his 5 minute power output will have dropped since his best pursuiting days due to weight loss. However when you're talking about efforts of an hour, muscle mass doesnt have a big impact, aeorbic engine is a much bigger factor.

If Sky hired the best riders in the race why is it surprising to see them there near the end?? Porte and Rogers have performed as they would have if they were riding for themselves. Be up there with the best for a long time, but then blow up when the real contendors start attacking. ???

The quality of Porte and Rogers, if I'm honest, is being embellished by both sides in this argument. It would be fair to call them both good TT leaning stage racers, GT top 10 level, but not that consistent.

They're not the best riders in the race - they've had the opportunity to ride for themselves before and the certainly weren't threatening the overall. Teams like Garmin and Radioschack also have multiple riders of the same calibre - RNT although ageing was a stronger team on paper.

 

[thehog]

Lol, didnt you claim that teams have been warming down for years after road stages by posting an irrelevent article about Lim using ice packs to cool down riders??

Also no one ever claimed that warming down after a race was the sole difference between flying up climbs and being in the gruppeto. It simply one of the many things to suggest that Sky prepare everything meticulously to ensure maximum performance from there riders which may give them a slight edge.

Yes you must have disappeared when those articles were posted about the women's Tibco team warming down in 2010 and amateurs warming down in the 90s.

It's ok I'm not here to rock your boat. It's ok you like Sky and want to see them win.

I'm not here to burst that bubble.

But when I see doping I call it out. And I do it in the Clinic not on race threads.

All you've come up with is warming down and there's no way British teams would dope.

Not plausible in the slightest.

As for "slight edge" well they're not winning the race by a slight edge. They're completely dominating in every facet. They smashing the climbs, killing the time trials and winning the odd sprint.

They've not even looked like losing the yellow since week one.

I for one have never seen anything like this in the history of the Tour.

 

[the big ring]

That,s interesting Simo. Any links to back that up?. Back in the 80,s using calliper measurements ( not the most accurate method) I was 10st 4lbs and im 5` 10" , my estimated body fat level was 7% . Race reports often described me as looking rather gaunt so I,m struggling with the whole idea that anyone could be racing a GT at 4% or even less. It just doesn't compute for me.

B$%$^tard!! I don't think I ever weighed 65kg

 

[straydog]

1) Nobody anywhere has ever said Wiggins had that amount of body fat. He's claimed the 4% figure in the past, and this is easily verifiable using google (he posted it on the guardian website, in an article he authored himself, in 2007) - he has since lost weight from that point and the Sky website lists him as 69kg. Now, how does a man, with a mediocre record at best 5 years ago on the road, and with 4% body fat at that point, LOSE weight and become one of the best time trialists and climbers in the world? Seriously, there's no medical explanation for it unless he was lying about his numbers.
2) Everyone claiming Cancellara wasn't fully fit conveniently overlooks the fact that he won the prologue by a reasonable margin. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
3) It's not quite as simple as setting a pace and then the racing having natural attrition. We've seen circumstances where Sky had 40% of the riders in the lead group. That's not natural attrition and riding tempo - that's setting a pace which is absolutely blistering and only the best being able to stay on.

Ok sorry to pick on Cavalier's post and not one of the other myriad of "joined in july" posters but hey....

So to point 1

BW's "mediocre" road palmares 5 years ago in 2007 included:
4 days of dunkirk ITT 1st
Poitou Charentes ITT 1st
Dauphine prologue 1st
TDF prologue 4th
TDF ITT 4th

ok so lets ignore the 4 track world champions jerseys he had won by that stage, and the olympic gold, in what was at that stage his main focus, and let's ignore the tour de l'avenir results in 2003 and 2005 (ITT win, ITT 3rd place and not to mention Aurillac stage victory over the seven climbs)

Wow...did you really only start watching cycling this july?

Point 2

Cancellara winning the prologue is not an indicator in the slightest as to his "fitness" over 40 kms. If you actually had been watching cycling prior to july you might have noticed that riders as diverse as Sagan, Hushovd and even dear sweet Mark Cavendish are capable of winning prologues. And let's also ignore the profile suiting lighter riders more than Cancellara, hence Nibali's good showing, and let's also forget Martin's injuries. Actually, my dear, we can have our cake and eat it, if you know, we actually know what we are talking about.

Point 3

I fear I may lose you here, and you might have to resort to google, but I will give it a go....

If you think there is something extraordinary about riders of the quality of Porte, Mick Rogers and even EBH being able to briefly set a tempo so "blistering" as to drop, er, well, no one really, then I fear this is the wrong sport for you. It seems many here, including possibly you, want to say that Froome is stronger than Wiggins, cos of that little treacherous attack, and yet don't spot any irony in then saying that a man who has been "dropped" by his own team mate, and has had to fight merely to suck Nibali's wheel at times, VDB's and even, irony of ironies, Evan's earlier on, must be the one doping. More cake anyone? As to Evan's little implosion yesterday. If you can't see that his form has sucked all year, then I can't help you. Don't worry though, you'll be fine, the premiership starts up again next month.

Finally, seeing as you seem to like questioning Kreb's qualifications so much, I am interested as to what yours are exactly? Have you ever competed in cycling? To an Elite level maybe? Any sport? Are you a sports scientist? A Haematologist?

Where does your expertise stem from? Genuinely interested.

Peace

 

[Darryl Webster]

They've not even looked like losing the yellow since week one.

I for one have never seen anything like this in the history of the Tour.

In the sense that that I've never seen a team control a race with such ease I've got to agree there Hog.
I think we can all agree the power levels and pace is down from EPO,s peek abuse but in theory that should be levelling the playing field and it clearly isn't doing that.
The casual observer might be forgiven for thinking the rest of the field has took the year of from placing the tour GC as a priority and I guess its arguable they gave up challenging after the first week utterly demoralised that none could present a challenge.

 

[straydog]

That,s interesting Simo. Any links to back that up?. Back in the 80,s using calliper measurements ( not the most accurate method) I was 10st 4lbs and im 5` 10" , my estimated body fat level was 7% . Race reports often described me as looking rather gaunt so I,m struggling with the whole idea that anyone could be racing a GT at 4% or even less. It just doesn't compute for me.

Darryl, as recently as 2009 I was racing at 71.5 kgs (6 ft 3) with a body fat of 6% measured in a chamber at UCL. I am pretty sure, had I really set my mind to it I could have brought that down a bit further. In terms of how it affected me.... Honestly it's the best I have ever felt on a bike, and whilst I wasn't suddenly transformed into Marco Pantani, my climbing, for me, went through the roof, compared to when it was 13-15%. I kept it at that level for most of the year, wasn't as hard as I expected, and only noticed a weird drop off in form at the end of the summer racing in Ireland, which I honestly think was to do with boredom and lack of focus in training.

Anyway, merely anecdotal, and purely personal but thought I'd share anyway.

Peace

 

[straydog]

As far as I know, if your bodyfat falls to 5% you will no longer be able to process fat soluble vitamins and would have to rely on injections.

I'd also really like to see some evidence to back that up....

 

[thehog]

In the sense that that I've never seen a team control a race with such ease I've got to agree there Hog.
I think we can all agree the power levels and pace is down from EPO,s peek abuse but in theory that should be levelling the playing field and it clearly isn't doing that.
The casual observer might be forgiven for thinking the rest of the field has took the year of from placing the tour GC as a priority and I guess its arguable they gave up challenging after the first week utterly demoralised that none could present a challenge.

We have to agree we won’t see EPO power level for a long time. Back in the day when EPO was undetectable and there was a lack of OOC testing then you’d expect levels that high. Now it’s a little more sophisticated and the passport doesn’t mean anti-doping just controlled doping.

What Sky are doing is miles ahead of any other team. If there was a TTT or 1-2 more mountain stages they’d be even further in front. The fact that Wiggins hasn’t had to win a road stage or even attack says it all really.

 

[Parrot23]

the fact that wiggins hasn’t had to win a road stage or even attack says it all really.

ROFLMAO, too much! Thanks for that. Marginal gains now, is it? Wiggo, the bonobo, just has to tag along for the phun as part of the Sky "pack", dancing along in the trees, just to become top "banana", like Miguel. No, Never!

 

[Bonkstrong]

In the sense that that I've never seen a team control a race with such ease I've got to agree there Hog.
I think we can all agree the power levels and pace is down from EPO,s peek abuse but in theory that should be levelling the playing field and it clearly isn't doing that.
The casual observer might be forgiven for thinking the rest of the field has took the year of from placing the tour GC as a priority and I guess its arguable they gave up challenging after the first week utterly demoralised that none could present a challenge.

They haven't dominated it though, the battle for the GC has been between a lone Nibali and Team Sky, it's probably the weakest GC race in the history of the Tour and thanks to radios and team orders it's possible that the winner might not even be the strongest rider there.

No real sustained MTF's, long downhill runs to finishes, long TT's. Say for instance Wiggins had crashed in the first TT and had gone into the 2nd week a minute behind Nibali, or TJVG, it would have been a completely different race because Wiggins doesn't have the punch to attack them in the mountains and claw back time.

Even on the Sprint stages (15) both Lotto and OGE refused to sit on the front even though Sky said they weren't going to chase down the break. It doesn't take a genious to work out that the other teams aren't going to bust a gut in the mountain with no rewards, especially since most of them have had men in the breaks with a chance of winning stages (FDJ, Euro, Rabo).

 

[kjetilraknerud]

The fact that Wiggins hasn’t had to win a road stage or even attack says it all really.

I didn't follow cycling at the time, and it doesn't really matter, but did Indurain ever win a road stage at the tour?

 

[UlleGigo]

I'm sorry but put simply anyone that thinks 'warming down' is new is a fool. It's really that simple.

If you'd ever been involved in sport, not specifically cycling, but just any sport, you would know that warming down is part and parcel of any form of exercise.

It's so funny to me that people can be so simple as to suggest that teams, or any athelete for that matter, doesn't warm down after not only competition, but any form of training.

 

[thehog]

I didn't follow cycling at the time, and it doesn't really matter, but did Indurain ever win a road stage at the tour?

Several.

That's not point I'm making. Sky are so strong that the yellow jersey doesn't even need to attack to gain time.

Never seen anything like that before. Ever.

 

[hrotha]

If you'd ever been involved in sport, not specifically cycling, but just any sport, you would know that warming down is part and parcel of any form of exercise.

Hell, they regularly told us about warming down in PE class at school.

 

[Bonkstrong]

Hell, they regularly told us about warming down in PE class at school.

I remember that too!

 

[UlleGigo]

Hell, they regularly told us about warming down in PE class at school.

Exactly. Its laughable.

Couple it with Froome finishing 12th in the Youth Classification as 'proof' of his ability and you have a level of desperate straw grasping not even approached in the US Postal days.

What can you do but laugh?

 

[kjetilraknerud]

Several.

That's not point I'm making. Sky are so strong that the yellow jersey doesn't even need to attack to gain time.

Never seen anything like that before. Ever.

I know that wasn't your point, but I'm sure you mentioned to prove something. Had a quick glance through Indurain's tour wins and all I saw was TT wins - but I didn't check thoroughly.

 

[the big ring]

Several.

That's not point I'm making. Sky are so strong that the yellow jersey doesn't even need to attack to gain time.

Never seen anything like that before. Ever.

Cadel in 2011?

 

[Bonkstrong]

Cadel in 2011?

Armstrong 1999-2005 - oh, hang on, that doesn't help my "clean" argument does it