Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Benotti69]

Re: Sky

More than 1 unusual performance transformation. There are the Wiggins and Froome from grupetto to Podiums. Then there are the talented guys who were expected to become big winners who went backwards.

But as for the rest. This there is no proof BS, is always the line that comes out of fanboys. The sport has a culture of doping. Skyy have won GTs, 3 weeks of intensive racing with guys no one expected to win GTs and people still scream, whinge and whine "there is no proof". Proof is all there. Those who want a positive dope test are trolling!

In your opinion they are trolling. Just because some people want a higher level of proof doesn't mean they are trolling <snip>

One can only demand a higher level of proof if the sport is being 'managed' and run properly. If the testing is a joke, demanding a positive test is ridiculous.

The best anti-doping organisations have been law enforcement agencies. Demanding a positive from an ADA or UCI (who recently notified the maker of internal electric engines for bikes about forthcoming tests) is laughable and therefore the one demanding the proof is either an ignoramus, naive at best or trolling at worst!

But then you know this, as a poster regularly in here and are the latter.

So actually you gave 2 more options in addition to trolling ...

And btw I have never demanded a positive test.

So waiting for the Gendarmes or the Spanish police to bust sky is what some people want because the UCI/ADAs are not going to do it? Well why come to the clinic, head off to some police forums.

Heck the UCI let TeamSky run their own scientific altitude studies on their own rider that showed blood anomalies? How f#*ked up is that from the International Federation sporting body?

 

[BYOP88]

Re: Sky

More than 1 unusual performance transformation. There are the Wiggins and Froome from grupetto to Podiums. Then there are the talented guys who were expected to become big winners who went backwards.

But as for the rest. This there is no proof BS, is always the line that comes out of fanboys. The sport has a culture of doping. Skyy have won GTs, 3 weeks of intensive racing with guys no one expected to win GTs and people still scream, whinge and whine "there is no proof". Proof is all there. Those who want a positive dope test are trolling!

In your opinion they are trolling. Just because some people want a higher level of proof doesn't mean they are trolling <snip>

One can only demand a higher level of proof if the sport is being 'managed' and run properly. If the testing is a joke, demanding a positive test is ridiculous.

The best anti-doping organisations have been law enforcement agencies. Demanding a positive from an ADA or UCI (who recently notified the maker of internal electric engines for bikes about forthcoming tests) is laughable and therefore the one demanding the proof is either an ignoramus, naive at best or trolling at worst!

But then you know this, as a poster regularly in here and are the latter.

So actually you gave 2 more options in addition to trolling ...

And btw I have never demanded a positive test.

So waiting for the Gendarmes or the Spanish police to bust sky is what some people want because the UCI/ADAs are not going to do it? Well why come to the clinic, head off to some police forums.

Heck the UCI let TeamSky run their own scientific altitude studies on their own rider that showed blood anomalies? How f#*ked up is that from the International Federation sporting body?

With the President's son along for the ride in Colombia too, who happened to be on the team Sky payroll.

 

[samhocking]

Re: Sky

I guess the question is that why does there need to be whistleblowers to prove that there is doping?
?

As opposed to what?

As it stands there is nothing that proves there is doping. What there is consists of one unusual performance change that is enough to merit asking questions, and some circumstance such as the appointment of a doctor known to have been involved in doping. You and I have come to the same conclusion as to the relationship between our suspicions and the circumstantial evidence, but we can't claim to have proved anything.

The absence of whistleblowers absolutely does not prove anything either, certainly not that Sky don't Dope. However you can't just pick and choose which bits of the Armstrong parallel you like, you have to compare it all and it is at least a tiny bit interesting that so far we've not seen any whistleblowers as by this point in USPS there had been quite a few.

That none of them were listened to pre-Floyd relates back to your point about UKAD'S sweeping of The Boner firmly under the carpet. It's a valid point.

More than 1 unusual performance transformation. There are the Wiggins and Froome from grupetto to Podiums. Then there are the talented guys who were expected to become big winners who went backwards.

But as for the rest. This there is no proof BS, is always the line that comes out of fanboys. The sport has a culture of doping. Skyy have won GTs, 3 weeks of intensive racing with guys no one expected to win GTs and people still scream, whinge and whine "there is no proof". Proof is all there. Those who want a positive dope test are trolling!

https://youtu.be/0rxh-AWyVr4?t=39m53s Still makes me laugh, look who's down in 129th place. Almost 80 minutes down on Millar. Pretty cool for Wiggins that in 3 years(although for 2007,08 wasn't he focusing on the track?, so maybe less than a years focus on the road) he can finish within 6 minutes of the overall winner.

Guy should've quit the track and focused on the road, because in 1 year he can go from an autobus passenger to on podium/almost on podium guy. He must be mad that he wasted so much time on the track, he could be up there with his hero Big Mig, for TdF wins.

Saw that as well... It's a big cheers with a Wiggo charity sponsored shot glass!

The thing is, comparing historical dates and results mean nothing with Wiggins because until 2009 when he moved his family to Spain when he signed with Garmin, his entire career had been focused on riding road as a domestique simply to pay the mortgage and his focus was clearly Olympics & Track. Even throughout he switched from road to track and back again. He's not like most riders who will ride roughly the same events on road their entire career.
Looking back Wiggins was relatively competitive in ITT events despite his weight in the only year he really focused on road, which was 2005 (again the only other year he moved his family to Europe) and he was 7th in World ITT. 2006/7 his family was back in UK and he focused on track again with Gold in Pursuit although did top 10 in World ITT too which was similar to when he focused on track & ITT in 2005.

2008 with High Road signing was purely to race Olympics & Track with Gold there and Gold in Worlds although did get 4th in ITT of Giro, yet finished 134th, but then again, it's pointless looking at any results on the road other than 2005 because he was clearly only looking at Olympics.

2009 he drops 9kg with Garmin and immediatly 2nd in Paris Nice ITT, 2nd in Critérium International ITT, 1st Three Days of De Panne ITT, 2nd Giro ITT, 3rd Tour de France ITT and then obviously his breakthrough 3rd(4th) overhall in Tour de France GC.


Française des Jeux 2002 = 84kg (Cycling Weekly Article)
Crédit Agricole/Athens 2004 = 84kg (Cycling Weekly Article)
Cofidis 2005/6 = 83kg (Cycling Weekly Article)
Team High Road/Beijing 2008 - 82kg (Cycling Weekly Article)
Garmin–Slipstream 2009 - 73kg (Cycling Weekly Article)
Team Sky/London 2012 - 71.5kg (Cycling Weekly Article)
Team Sky/TofC 2014 - 71.75kg (Wiggins Instagram Scale Photo)
Team Sky/Paris Robaix 2015 - 75.5kg (Cycling Weekly Article)
Team Wiggins/Hour Record 2015 - 77kg (Cycling Weekly Article)
Team Wiggins/Jan 2016 - 83.2kg(Wiggins Instagram Scale Photo)

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Sky

The thing is, comparing historical dates and results mean nothing with Wiggins because until 2009 when he moved his family to Spain when he signed with Garmin, his entire career had been focused on riding road as a domestique simply to pay the mortgage and his focus was clearly Olympics & Track. Even throughout he switched from road to track and back again. He's not like most riders who will ride roughly the same events on road their entire career.
Looking back Wiggins was relatively competitive in ITT events despite his weight in the only year he really focused on road, which was 2005 (again the only other year he moved his family to Europe) and he was 7th in World ITT. 2006/7 his family was back in UK and he focused on track again with Gold in Pursuit although did top 10 in World ITT too which was similar to when he focused on track & ITT in 2005.

2008 with High Road signing was purely to race Olympics & Track with Gold there and Gold in Worlds although did get 4th in ITT of Giro, yet finished 134th, but then again, it's pointless looking at any results on the road other than 2005 because he was clearly only looking at Olympics.

2009 he drops 9kg with Garmin and immediatly 2nd in Paris Nice ITT, 2nd in Critérium International ITT, 1st Three Days of De Panne ITT, 2nd Giro ITT, 3rd Tour de France ITT and then obviously his breakthrough 3rd(4th) overhall in Tour de France GC.


Française des Jeux 2002 = 84kg (Cycling Weekly Article)
Crédit Agricole/Athens 2004 = 84kg (Cycling Weekly Article)
Cofidis 2005/6 = 83kg (Cycling Weekly Article)
Team High Road/Beijing 2008 - 82kg (Cycling Weekly Article)
Garmin–Slipstream 2009 - 73kg (Cycling Weekly Article)
Team Sky/London 2012 - 71.5kg (Cycling Weekly Article)
Team Sky/TofC 2014 - 71.75kg (Wiggins Instagram Scale Photo)
Team Sky/Paris Robaix 2015 - 75.5kg (Cycling Weekly Article)
Team Wiggins/Hour Record 2015 - 77kg (Cycling Weekly Article)
Team Wiggins/Jan 2016 - 83.2kg(Wiggins Instagram Scale Photo)

The Wiggins thread is full of information busting the myth that Wiggins always had the engine but needed to lose some weight and concentrate on the road. Please take it there if you wish to rehash this old tired and lie of an argument.

 

[ppanther92]

The weight loss as major step for GT success is surely not a lie at all, however the way he achieved this weight loss, while at least holding his power levels, should ring the bells.

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

Wiggins did everything he could to win the 2007 TdF prologue. It was his season goal. He fails. Ten days of recovery later, he loses a minute to the clean champion Evans in a long ITT.
Enter 2012 and bang, Wiggo wins every ITT all year long. Some by more than a minute.
And he was an olympic gold medallist before that, so he couldn't have "just lost the fat". Unless you can win on the track with the fat, of course.

 

[wrinklyvet]

Re:

Wiggins did everything he could to win the 2007 TdF prologue. It was his season goal. He fails. Ten days of recovery later, he loses a minute to the clean champion Evans in a long ITT.
Enter 2012 and bang, Wiggo wins every ITT all year long. Some by more than a minute.
And he was an olympic gold medallist before that, so he couldn't have "just lost the fat". Unless you can win on the track with the fat, of course.

Apparently that's the point. They tell us that with the extra weight you can and are more likely to, which is why he said not that long ago that he was putting some back on for the track.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Certainly more upper body muscle (well and leg muscle I guess) on trackies.

Even the TP is more like a series of interval workouts. (Sprint and recover a bit).
A bit more momentum seems to help.

Way beyond my sports science knowledge to know the ideal though.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Wiggins did everything he could to win the 2007 TdF prologue. It was his season goal. He fails. Ten days of recovery later, he loses a minute to the clean champion Evans in a long ITT.
Enter 2012 and bang, Wiggo wins every ITT all year long. Some by more than a minute.
And he was an olympic gold medallist before that, so he couldn't have "just lost the fat". Unless you can win on the track with the fat, of course.

Apparently that's the point. They tell us that with the extra weight you can and are more likely to, which is why he said not that long ago that he was putting some back on for the track.

We can trust Wiggins of course. He always tells the truth.

 

[wrinklyvet]

Re: Re:

Wiggins did everything he could to win the 2007 TdF prologue. It was his season goal. He fails. Ten days of recovery later, he loses a minute to the clean champion Evans in a long ITT.
Enter 2012 and bang, Wiggo wins every ITT all year long. Some by more than a minute.
And he was an olympic gold medallist before that, so he couldn't have "just lost the fat". Unless you can win on the track with the fat, of course.

Apparently that's the point. They tell us that with the extra weight you can and are more likely to, which is why he said not that long ago that he was putting some back on for the track.

We can trust Wiggins of course. He always tells the truth.

Yes, good point. I wouldn't accept this as the truth if I were you.

 

[carolina]

Re:

It's possible to a natural athlete to lose fat and retain muscle (or power). What is strange is how they can achieve this so quickly. To avoid power loss you can't lose more then a pound per week and even that a is a bit high. Half or 2/3 of a pound per week would be ideal.

The inverse is also possible (gainning muscle without fat), but it's necessary to do it very slowly. Sagan's transformation, for instance, was ridiculous. He put on several kilos of muscle in very few months and did it while doing endurance exercise, which makes things even more dificult.

 

[jahn]

Re: Sky

I recall reading somewhere that some general classification type cyclists say they actually gain power from weight loss. Taken with a grain of salt of course...

Maybe due to a more fluid range of motion or less tissue to have to pump oxygen to.

 

[Arrowfarm]

Or maybe due to doping. Not like those guys have a whole lot of weight to lose in the first place.

 

[TheSpud]

Re: Sky

So waiting for the Gendarmes or the Spanish police to bust sky is what some people want because the UCI/ADAs are not going to do it? Well why come to the clinic, head off to some police forums.

Heck the UCI let TeamSky run their own scientific altitude studies on their own rider that showed blood anomalies? How f#*ked up is that from the International Federation sporting body?

I'm not bothered what other people want, I'm just saying that just because they don't agree with you doesn't make them trolls any more than you are.

And, while we are here - about the altitude study. If I remember correctly Henao was withdrawn by Sky (not the UCI) after their own internal testing gave them a concern. There was never a concern from the UCI, so don't try and portray it as such (which you have done above). You can wax lyrical all you like about this being another example of Sky being protected but you have absolutely no evidence from that story to make that claim.

 

[thehog]

Re: Sky

So waiting for the Gendarmes or the Spanish police to bust sky is what some people want because the UCI/ADAs are not going to do it? Well why come to the clinic, head off to some police forums.

Heck the UCI let TeamSky run their own scientific altitude studies on their own rider that showed blood anomalies? How f#*ked up is that from the International Federation sporting body?

I'm not bothered what other people want, I'm just saying that just because they don't agree with you doesn't make them trolls any more than you are.

And, while we are here - about the altitude study. If I remember correctly Henao was withdrawn by Sky (not the UCI) after their own internal testing gave them a concern. There was never a concern from the UCI, so don't try and portray it as such (which you have done above). You can wax lyrical all you like about this being another example of Sky being protected but you have absolutely no evidence from that story to make that claim.

No concern you say? You do like to make up the narrative as you go along, yes? :surprised:

The Cycling Anti Doping Foundation (CADF), the anti-doping arm of the UCI, has opened a biological passport case against Sergio Henao, who as a result has been temporarily withdrawn from racing by Team Sky for the second time in his career. The Colombian has 20 days to respond to the CADF's request for more information and explanations relating to his blood profile from a period between August 2011 to June 2015.

 

[Night Rider]

Re: Sky

I recall reading somewhere that some general classification type cyclists say they actually gain power from weight loss. Taken with a grain of salt of course...

Maybe due to a more fluid range of motion or less tissue to have to pump oxygen to.

No, not possible as far as I'm aware. Are there any studies the riders can back that up with? If you isolate the weight loss by itself when they are already at 6-7% body fat then they are full of it saying they will gain power.

 

[TheSpud]

Re: Sky

So waiting for the Gendarmes or the Spanish police to bust sky is what some people want because the UCI/ADAs are not going to do it? Well why come to the clinic, head off to some police forums.

Heck the UCI let TeamSky run their own scientific altitude studies on their own rider that showed blood anomalies? How f#*ked up is that from the International Federation sporting body?

I'm not bothered what other people want, I'm just saying that just because they don't agree with you doesn't make them trolls any more than you are.

And, while we are here - about the altitude study. If I remember correctly Henao was withdrawn by Sky (not the UCI) after their own internal testing gave them a concern. There was never a concern from the UCI, so don't try and portray it as such (which you have done above). You can wax lyrical all you like about this being another example of Sky being protected but you have absolutely no evidence from that story to make that claim.

No concern you say? You do like to make up the narrative as you go along, yes? :surprised:

The Cycling Anti Doping Foundation (CADF), the anti-doping arm of the UCI, has opened a biological passport case against Sergio Henao, who as a result has been temporarily withdrawn from racing by Team Sky for the second time in his career. The Colombian has 20 days to respond to the CADF's request for more information and explanations relating to his blood profile from a period between August 2011 to June 2015.

I'm happy to stand corrected on the second occurrence there Hog. I was treating the one referred to above by Benotti as the first occurence.

 

[Lyon]

Loosing weight while gaining power is as old as Bjarne Riis. Proclaiming what power is needed to beat your opponents is as old as Bjarne Riis. If Riis had been born a brit we wouldn't be having this conversation. If Armstrong had been born a brit we wouldn't be having this conversation. You brits are late to the party - enjoy it while it lasts.

 

[samhocking]

Re: Sky

I recall reading somewhere that some general classification type cyclists say they actually gain power from weight loss. Taken with a grain of salt of course...

Maybe due to a more fluid range of motion or less tissue to have to pump oxygen to.

No, not possible as far as I'm aware. Are there any studies the riders can back that up with? If you isolate the weight loss by itself when they are already at 6-7% body fat then they are full of it saying they will gain power.

If you've ever ridden a pursuit on the track, you'll realise the upper body and arm power required off the start is basically a quarter of the event, the other 3/4 is pure leg endurance like riding up a mountain on the delicate edge of blowing up, but not quite. This is why Cavendish made an excellent 1st Man, lousy last man in team pursuit, because that first lap is basically pulling on handlebars and all upper body strength used to get up to speed for less explosive riders like Wiggins to take over the pure endurance side of the event after. This is also why you'll never see a 60-70kg GC rider ever contemplating the pursuit event. Even the hour record is no longer within reach of a GC rider because you simply need more muscle in the upper body to not loose time off the start. Look at Thomas`s weight when they broke the record in team pursuit. The amount of upper body work required in the gym means you easily have 5-10kg more muscle on the upper body.

Loosing 10kg of muscle from the upper body is a lot easier than gaining it. I would say you would be better taking drugs to gain muscle than to loose it as muscle depletes naturally if you just ride road only.

 

[kwikki]

Not quite sure where CADF opening up a case against a key Sky rider fits into the forum narrative that Sky are permitted to dope with impunity by the UCI, which is how they manage to win

Maybe, one of the proponents of this narrative could explain?

I was wondering whether it might be that Sky and the UCI colluded to put Henao up as a temporary scapegoat, to counter allegations of corruption, or something....

 

[TheSpud]

Re:

Not quite sure where CADF opening up a case against a key Sky rider fits into the forum narrative that Sky are permitted to dope with impunity by the UCI, which is how they manage to win

Maybe, one of the proponents of this narrative could explain?

I was wondering whether it might be that Sky and the UCI colluded to put Henao up as a temporary scapegoat, to counter allegations of corruption, or something....

Yes that is an interesting one - the protected team that has had one (new) rider suspended for blood anomalies, and another one looked at for the same issue. Doesn't seem to fit - if they were protected then there wouldn't be any cases at all, surely?

 

[kwikki]

The narrative goes something like this:
Sky win because they dope. Even though there are plenty of other dopers in the peloton, these other dopers have their doping limited by the threat of dope testing (even though dope testing isn't done and doesn't work). Sky are not limited by the threat of dope testing because they have an agreement with all anti-doping laboratories, and governing bodies that Sky positive tests are not to be released. Sergio Henao was withdrawn from racing by Sky in 2014 for BP anomalies. He was then put under investigation 2 years later by CADF and absolved. This is despite Sky being protected.

So, Henao brought suspicion onto Sky. There are several possibilities. Sky didn't pay enough money and CADF strong-armed Sky into paying the protection fee. Or Sky put up Henao as a scapegoat to demonstrate that Sky aren't protected. Or that Henao actually had suspicious values but there was a legitimate explanation. Or that Henao had suspicious values but there wasn't enough conclusive evidence to prosecute (this one is my pick).

Meanwhile, JTL, a newly signed Sky rider, gets busted and banned. Thus transferring some of his stink onto Sky, and demonstrating that Sky aren't protected.

 

[Yokohama]

Re: Sky

This is also why you'll never see a 60-70kg GC rider ever contemplating the pursuit event. Even the hour record is no longer within reach of a GC rider because you simply need more muscle in the upper body to not loose time off the start.

By strange coincidence I was just this morning reading this from Froome's 2015 Q&A session on Twitter:

"Among the answers, Froome said that an attempt at the Hour Record may be ‘on the cards’, and that he thought Bradley Wiggins had ‘a good chance’ of winning Paris-Roubaix."

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/chris-froome-on-lloyd-mondorys-epo-positive-what-an-idiot-161952

I know his weight is estimated anywhere from 66-71kg over the last few years, but it seems he/Brailsford could once again rewrite the rules on everything we know about cycling.

If they want.

 

[Eyeballs Out]

Re:

Meanwhile, JTL, a newly signed Sky rider, gets busted and banned. Thus transferring some of his stink onto Sky, and demonstrating that Sky aren't protected.

Clearly, JTL getting banned was highly beneficial to Sky

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Meanwhile, JTL, a newly signed Sky rider, gets busted and banned. Thus transferring some of his stink onto Sky, and demonstrating that Sky aren't protected.

Clearly, JTL getting banned was highly beneficial to Sky

Both the Menchov and the JTL passport cases were opened under the McQuaid Presidency. Perhaps a parting gift for the new President

Menchov for Markov, JTL for the former board member of Sky