Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

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Irondan

Administrator
Moderator
Re:

sniper said:
Yeah, let it fold. I don't see any donwsides.

I mean in its current form, why would anyone want PRO-cycling to continue existing?
Honest question.
I can't think of too many arguments.
Sure, the entertainment.
But does the entertainment value weigh up against the knowledge that all these bottomfeeders are making huge (taxpayer) money by cheating? Not for me.
What are you insinuating, that pro cycling burn to the ground with the hope that it will rise again as the clean sport everyone hopes it would be? I guess I'm jaded in the fact that all top prosport is tainted, and always will be as long as there's big money, power, prestige, etc. to be had. Frankly I don't think a cleansing would help..
 
Feb 16, 2011
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Re: Re:

Irondan said:
sniper said:
Yeah, let it fold. I don't see any donwsides.

I mean in its current form, why would anyone want PRO-cycling to continue existing?
Honest question.
I can't think of too many arguments.
Sure, the entertainment.
But does the entertainment value weigh up against the knowledge that all these bottomfeeders are making huge (taxpayer) money by cheating? Not for me.
What are you insinuating, that pro cycling burn to the ground with the hope that it will rise again as the clean sport everyone hopes it would be? I guess I'm jaded in the fact that all top prosport is tainted, and always will be as long as there's big money, power, prestige, etc. to be had. Frankly I don't think a cleansing would help..
What we're saying is we're sick of the likes of Sky leveraging the Puerto/Landis/Armstrong scandals by claiming they're snow white, Britishly beautiful and can never do wrong, all the while cynically exploiting the broader desire for trust and transparency while being just as dirty and connected and corrupt as their forebears, just because they speak English, think they're superior, and aren't part of that tainted 'foreigner' cheating business.
 

Irondan

Administrator
Moderator
Re: Re:

Stingray34 said:
Irondan said:
sniper said:
Yeah, let it fold. I don't see any donwsides.

I mean in its current form, why would anyone want PRO-cycling to continue existing?
Honest question.
I can't think of too many arguments.
Sure, the entertainment.
But does the entertainment value weigh up against the knowledge that all these bottomfeeders are making huge (taxpayer) money by cheating? Not for me.
What are you insinuating, that pro cycling burn to the ground with the hope that it will rise again as the clean sport everyone hopes it would be? I guess I'm jaded in the fact that all top prosport is tainted, and always will be as long as there's big money, power, prestige, etc. to be had. Frankly I don't think a cleansing would help..
What we're saying is we're sick of the likes of Sky leveraging the Puerto/Landis/Armstrong scandals by claiming they're snow white, Britishly beautiful and can never do wrong, all the while cynically exploiting the broader desire for trust and transparency while being just as dirty and connected and corrupt as their forebears, just because they speak English, think they're superior, and aren't part of that tainted 'foreigner' cheating business.
Wow, okay... Would it be any different if they were a Spanish or Belgian team?
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Re: Re:

Irondan said:
sniper said:
Yeah, let it fold. I don't see any donwsides.

I mean in its current form, why would anyone want PRO-cycling to continue existing?
Honest question.
I can't think of too many arguments.
Sure, the entertainment.
But does the entertainment value weigh up against the knowledge that all these bottomfeeders are making huge (taxpayer) money by cheating? Not for me.
What are you insinuating, that pro cycling burn to the ground with the hope that it will rise again as the clean sport everyone hopes it would be? I guess I'm jaded in the fact that all top prosport is tainted, and always will be as long as there's big money, power, prestige, etc. to be had. Frankly I don't think a cleansing would help..
for me, the thought of - with all due respect - really dumb people like Messi and Ronaldo making so much money that the next 10 or 15 generations of their offspring will never have to work a single minute is unbearable.
Guys like Sutton and Wiggins same story of course.
Not that I don't wish them good fortune, but we're talking about really dumb people here who otherwise would be happy to stack shelves in tesco, people also who do absolutely nothing useful with their immense wealth except driving expensive cars, buying small islands and 'growing' their fortune by evading tax and creating fake charities.

For me, pro-sport as it is contributes absolutely nothing useful to the world, except turning it into a place where cheating is the norm.
 

Irondan

Administrator
Moderator
Re: Re:

sniper said:
Irondan said:
sniper said:
Yeah, let it fold. I don't see any donwsides.

I mean in its current form, why would anyone want PRO-cycling to continue existing?
Honest question.
I can't think of too many arguments.
Sure, the entertainment.
But does the entertainment value weigh up against the knowledge that all these bottomfeeders are making huge (taxpayer) money by cheating? Not for me.
What are you insinuating, that pro cycling burn to the ground with the hope that it will rise again as the clean sport everyone hopes it would be? I guess I'm jaded in the fact that all top prosport is tainted, and always will be as long as there's big money, power, prestige, etc. to be had. Frankly I don't think a cleansing would help..
for me, the thought of - with all possible respect - really dumb people like Messi and Ronaldo making so much money that the next 10 or 15 generations of their offspring will never have to work a single minute is unbearable.
Guys like Sutton and Wiggins same story of course.
Not that I don't wish them good fortune, but we're talking about really dumb people here who otherwise would be happy to stack shelves in tesco, people also who do absolutely nothing useful with their immense wealth except driving expensive cars, buying small islands and 'growing' their fortune by evading tax and creating fake charities.

For me, pro-sport as it is contributes absolutely nothing useful to the world, except turning it into a place where cheating is the norm.
Fair enough, I get that and see it myself. There's pro athletes in the US that make me sick every time I hear them speak. (for some reason journo's think that they'll get a well thought, articulate sound bite from a stammering idiot that has an enormously strong arm or legs...) But, the ruin of prosport just for the sake of destruction doesn't seem likely, although pro cycling could be ruined it will never go away for good. Too many people love to watch the likes of Contador, Sagan and the others throw a leg over a bicycle and ride faster than humans were ever though to be capable of.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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true.

and don't get me wrong, i can't resist prosport either.
I'm still pretty hooked, especially to football which is arguably the most rotten of all. But my enthusiasm has withered significantly in the past coupla years.
And if prosport would stop existing tomorrow, i wouldn't shed a tear.

That said, procycling has a romanticism to it which is unique. I love that and it would be a shame if it disappeared.
But I have to agree with Stingray that Sky are doing a lot to screw it up.
 
Feb 16, 2011
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Re: Re:

Irondan said:
Stingray34 said:
Irondan said:
sniper said:
Yeah, let it fold. I don't see any donwsides.

I mean in its current form, why would anyone want PRO-cycling to continue existing?
Honest question.
I can't think of too many arguments.
Sure, the entertainment.
But does the entertainment value weigh up against the knowledge that all these bottomfeeders are making huge (taxpayer) money by cheating? Not for me.
What are you insinuating, that pro cycling burn to the ground with the hope that it will rise again as the clean sport everyone hopes it would be? I guess I'm jaded in the fact that all top prosport is tainted, and always will be as long as there's big money, power, prestige, etc. to be had. Frankly I don't think a cleansing would help..
What we're saying is we're sick of the likes of Sky leveraging the Puerto/Landis/Armstrong scandals by claiming they're snow white, Britishly beautiful and can never do wrong, all the while cynically exploiting the broader desire for trust and transparency while being just as dirty and connected and corrupt as their forebears, just because they speak English, think they're superior, and aren't part of that tainted 'foreigner' cheating business.
Wow, okay... Would it be any different if they were a Spanish or Belgian team?

They wouldn't have gotten so far - a trackie winning the Tour, pack-fodder/car-holder suddenly getting a tropical disease and becoming a three-time Tour winner, and the pair of them skinny as beta-rat and crushing time-trials.

Spain did throw up the occasional hero-in-waiting like this, til they popped within six months, ie Isidro Nozal.
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
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excellent point stingray.

whether we like it or not, i think it's difficult to ignore that there is a pro-anglophone bias at play in the background.
From US postal to UK postal.
Hardly a coincidence and relatively easy to explain from a commercial perspective.

At present this bias is particularly visible in cycling, a sport in which british athletes have not traditionally excelled. Cookson, Brailsford, Reedie. Cringeworthy
 
May 26, 2010
28,144
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Re: Re:

Irondan said:
Stingray34 said:
Irondan said:
sniper said:
Yeah, let it fold. I don't see any donwsides.

I mean in its current form, why would anyone want PRO-cycling to continue existing?
Honest question.
I can't think of too many arguments.
Sure, the entertainment.
But does the entertainment value weigh up against the knowledge that all these bottomfeeders are making huge (taxpayer) money by cheating? Not for me.
What are you insinuating, that pro cycling burn to the ground with the hope that it will rise again as the clean sport everyone hopes it would be? I guess I'm jaded in the fact that all top prosport is tainted, and always will be as long as there's big money, power, prestige, etc. to be had. Frankly I don't think a cleansing would help..
What we're saying is we're sick of the likes of Sky leveraging the Puerto/Landis/Armstrong scandals by claiming they're snow white, Britishly beautiful and can never do wrong, all the while cynically exploiting the broader desire for trust and transparency while being just as dirty and connected and corrupt as their forebears, just because they speak English, think they're superior, and aren't part of that tainted 'foreigner' cheating business.
Wow, okay... Would it be any different if they were a Spanish or Belgian team?
Kelme? Euskaltel?

Dutch team got popped Rabobank? No

Italian teams got popped? Acqua&Sapone? Mapei?

Saunier Duvall?

If Brailsford goes and Sky pull the plug is any different than those before?
 
May 26, 2010
28,144
2
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Re:

sniper said:
excellent point stingray.

whether we like it or not, i think it's difficult to ignore that there is a pro-anglophone bias at play in the background.
And that's relatively easy to explain from a commercial perspective.
Cookson and Reedie are laughing all the way to the bank/s.
 
Feb 16, 2011
1,457
3
0
Re:

sniper said:
excellent point stingray.

whether we like it or not, i think it's difficult to ignore that there is a pro-anglophone bias at play in the background.
And that's relatively easy to explain from a commercial perspective.
Thanks, Snipe.

Can anyone confirm if Sir Dave said, "I like our credibility"?

;)
 
May 26, 2010
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December is not a good time for a team to end. Lots of people will be without work and little chance of getting work for a year at least.
 

Irondan

Administrator
Moderator
Re:

Robert5091 said:
http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/38379953
Even the normal cheerleading BBC are asking some questions about "Jiffygate" (tm)
They ask some good questions....
  • But questions remain:
  • Why has it taken so long for organisations that claim to be committed to transparency and accountability to get here?
  • The Daily Mail now reports that Brailsford tried to persuade them not to run the Jiffy bag story. Why go to such efforts when it merely contained a decongestant?
  • Will British Cycling or Team Sky now be able to provide a paper trail to back up the Fluimucil explanation?
  • Why was British Cycling president Bob Howden still unable to say what was in the jiffy bag months after the story broke, only for Brailsford to then reveal it?
  • Why were Brailsford's original explanations about the delivery not correct when all he had to do was ask former team medic Dr Richard Freeman?
  • Why send for a routine, innocuous drug from over 1,000 kilometres away when it could have been easily sourced in France?
  • Why did former coach Shane Sutton "authorise" the delivery of something, the details of which he claims not to be aware of? And why did Wiggins' long-term mentor not know what medication his star cyclist was taking?
  • And why was Wiggins taking a decongestant that apparently is not meant to be used by asthmatics (like him)?

    http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/38379953
 
Re: Re:

Irondan said:
Robert5091 said:
http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/38379953
Even the normal cheerleading BBC are asking some questions about "Jiffygate" (tm)
They ask some good questions....
  • But questions remain:
  • Why has it taken so long for organisations that claim to be committed to transparency and accountability to get here?
  • The Daily Mail now reports that Brailsford tried to persuade them not to run the Jiffy bag story. Why go to such efforts when it merely contained a decongestant?
  • Will British Cycling or Team Sky now be able to provide a paper trail to back up the Fluimucil explanation?
  • Why was British Cycling president Bob Howden still unable to say what was in the jiffy bag months after the story broke, only for Brailsford to then reveal it?
  • Why were Brailsford's original explanations about the delivery not correct when all he had to do was ask former team medic Dr Richard Freeman?
  • Why send for a routine, innocuous drug from over 1,000 kilometres away when it could have been easily sourced in France?
  • Why did former coach Shane Sutton "authorise" the delivery of something, the details of which he claims not to be aware of? And why did Wiggins' long-term mentor not know what medication his star cyclist was taking?
  • And why was Wiggins taking a decongestant that apparently is not meant to be used by asthmatics (like him)?

    http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/38379953
Great questions.

I wonder...what the most likely answer is here...something obvious maybe? Nah.

I guess it was just handled badly. That should cover it.
 
Aug 26, 2014
2,148
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Re: Re:

red_flanders said:
Irondan said:
Robert5091 said:
http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/38379953
Even the normal cheerleading BBC are asking some questions about "Jiffygate" (tm)
They ask some good questions....
  • But questions remain:
  • Why has it taken so long for organisations that claim to be committed to transparency and accountability to get here?
  • The Daily Mail now reports that Brailsford tried to persuade them not to run the Jiffy bag story. Why go to such efforts when it merely contained a decongestant?
  • Will British Cycling or Team Sky now be able to provide a paper trail to back up the Fluimucil explanation?
  • Why was British Cycling president Bob Howden still unable to say what was in the jiffy bag months after the story broke, only for Brailsford to then reveal it?
  • Why were Brailsford's original explanations about the delivery not correct when all he had to do was ask former team medic Dr Richard Freeman?
  • Why send for a routine, innocuous drug from over 1,000 kilometres away when it could have been easily sourced in France?
  • Why did former coach Shane Sutton "authorise" the delivery of something, the details of which he claims not to be aware of? And why did Wiggins' long-term mentor not know what medication his star cyclist was taking?
  • And why was Wiggins taking a decongestant that apparently is not meant to be used by asthmatics (like him)?

    http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/38379953
Great questions.

I wonder...what the most likely answer is here...something obvious maybe? Nah.

I guess it was just handled badly. That should cover it.
Seems to me that Sky have spent the time going through Wiggo's records to find something that they could say was in the bag that wouldn't raise alarm bells. Couldn't go saying it was something out of the blue without begging further questions. So Flumacil will all tally with official records even if the whole story is absurd.
 
Re: Re:

Electress said:
red_flanders said:
Irondan said:
Robert5091 said:
http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/38379953
Even the normal cheerleading BBC are asking some questions about "Jiffygate" (tm)
They ask some good questions....
  • But questions remain:
  • Why has it taken so long for organisations that claim to be committed to transparency and accountability to get here?
  • The Daily Mail now reports that Brailsford tried to persuade them not to run the Jiffy bag story. Why go to such efforts when it merely contained a decongestant?
  • Will British Cycling or Team Sky now be able to provide a paper trail to back up the Fluimucil explanation?
  • Why was British Cycling president Bob Howden still unable to say what was in the jiffy bag months after the story broke, only for Brailsford to then reveal it?
  • Why were Brailsford's original explanations about the delivery not correct when all he had to do was ask former team medic Dr Richard Freeman?
  • Why send for a routine, innocuous drug from over 1,000 kilometres away when it could have been easily sourced in France?
  • Why did former coach Shane Sutton "authorise" the delivery of something, the details of which he claims not to be aware of? And why did Wiggins' long-term mentor not know what medication his star cyclist was taking?
  • And why was Wiggins taking a decongestant that apparently is not meant to be used by asthmatics (like him)?

    http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/38379953
Great questions.

I wonder...what the most likely answer is here...something obvious maybe? Nah.

I guess it was just handled badly. That should cover it.
Seems to me that Sky have spent the time going through Wiggo's records to find something that they could say was in the bag that wouldn't raise alarm bells. Couldn't go saying it was something out of the blue without begging further questions. So Flumacil will all tally with official records even if the whole story is absurd.
Agreed, they like Lance in 99 had to find the "saddle cream" of drugs to pick which has a paper trail or one they could quickly make. All good and well if they reached into the medial cabinet on the bus, but to transport this drug from Manchester is so ridiculous I think even the bots are having a hard time digesting Brailsford's double speak! :cool:
 
Feb 24, 2015
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Sniper I have one major issue with what you write here and it is the HUGE green envious chip you have sitting on your shoulder.

"for me, the thought of - with all due respect - really dumb people like Messi and Ronaldo making so much money that the next 10 or 15 generations of their offspring will never have to work a single minute is unbearable.
Guys like Sutton and Wiggins same story of course.
Not that I don't wish them good fortune, but we're talking about really dumb people here who otherwise would be happy to stack shelves in tesco, people also who do absolutely nothing useful with their immense wealth except driving expensive cars, buying small islands and 'growing' their fortune by evading tax and creating fake charities.

For me, pro-sport as it is contributes absolutely nothing useful to the world, except turning it into a place where cheating is the norm"

Firstly - and lets get this straight from the start. There has been cheating in every sport PRO and Amateur since time began. There was evidence of cheating at the very first olympiad.
Amateurs cheat as so do Pro's
People cheat in their professional careers even when it is not a sporting career. So making cheating the norm is not only for sports people.
Also just because someone plays sport doesn't make them dumb. YOu would be surprised at the number of people who are probably quite a bit smarter than you who play sport. And suprisingly the number of footballers with more than one degree would surprise you. For instance the Vladimir Klitschko (professional boxers - who dumb must boxers be spend their days getting their heads bashed) well Vladmimir has a number of degrees is a grand master at chess. The list of professional Rugby players who are pretty smart is also rather long. as I am sure it is in other sports as well.

Secondly the usefulness of sport is that is creates an atmosphere of belonging within the community and replaces the tribalism that was lost when we all became faceless cogs in the industrial wheel. It gives people the opportunity to enjoy success which they may not have in their own lives and allows them to feel free of their cares and worries for a brief respite during the game or in the afterglow of a win.

It also allows for these "dumb" people to be able to lift themselves out of the poverty and crime and lives cut short through violence and despair. These "dumb" people are human beings who have a skill, like it or not, some people have mental agility and acumen, others have physical prowess. For you to determine that a "dumb" young argentinian kid who could kick a ball harder than his peers at 11 years old has no right to go on and make money using that skill and to become one of the richest footballers in the world. Is both hateful and shows your own true inner envy of people who are successful. Maybe you should take some time and go talk to the youth coaches at any football club, boxing club, rugby club, or swimming club and see how many of these young kids living in dire situations dream of emulating the people who lifted themselves out of poverty and became a hero to millions.

Lastly and possibly the most ridiculous part of your post - Pro sport does nothing for this world.
As for your quoted Messi and Ronaldo, When was the last time you set up a charitable foundation and put 1/3 of your 110 million dollars per year into it.? When was the last time you gave $500,000 to a hospital in your home town? when was the last time you traveled the world at you r own expense for unicef to help children and raise awareness. Take a look at the charitable donations of tiger woods, Elli Manning, Dikembe Mutombo, Derek Jeter, Andre Agassi, Haile Gabrselassie in Ethiopia and all he does, David Beckham has not set up numerous academies in east london to help underprivileged children then I take it or thousands of other footballers across the uk and the world. The Top NFL players all have charitable foundations and all do good in their communities mainly because these "Dumb" poorly spoken guys came from the street gangs and watched many of their friends die from drugs and guns. So do many of the NBA and the NHL players. There are hundreds of millions of pounds put back into the world every year by professional sports people to help communities and help children and others to make their lives better.

So next time that green chimp on your shoulder starts whining about the "dumb" people who have fast cars and things you may not have I suggest to take a long hard look in the mirror before you start generalising and despising thousands of people because of your own misguided and uninformed prejudices.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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maybe later I'll have time to weed through the numerous strawmen in that post and reply to the one or two fair points you're making.
 
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