Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

On the subject of Wiggins and nasal polyps (from post on previous page), did BW ever have surgery for those? I know other cyclists and pro athletes have had that in the off-season, and lots of just regular joes who get it done. Would think surgery would be done for lots of athletes with the issue.

Nasal polyps appears to be another invention from the other poster over-page, along with an extra endoscopy that never happened.
Dunno if this is deliberate false info, honest mistakes, or if he's in-the-know and has seen all of Wiggins personal medicals.

Allergy Rhinitis (Rhinorrhea) is the diagnosis for Wiggins in the TUEs. To diagnose Rhinorrhea you have to perform an Endoscopy to see the Nasal Polyps. Not sure what else there is to explain, it's all there in each TUE? Obviously it would be nice if Fancy Bears had released 'all' of each athlete's TUE supporting documents, but they didn't for obvious reasons that many would probably invalidate their claim each TUE is doping and not theraputic and therefore weakening the 'doping' claims and purpose of the hacked leak.
The 2012 TUE also includes the additional diagnosis of Dyspnea which is basically shortening of the breath. Obviously if you have nasal polyps from the Rhinorrhea allergies blocking your breathing and Ahstma it would lead to Dyspnea.

 

[Vayerism]

Hi Sam,

Even if the diagnosis is correct, the use of injected kenacort is a ridiculous treatment.

1. its meant to be taken via inhalation through the nose- for Rhinorrhea (hayfever)
2. It's an absolute last resort i.e. the patient is in hospital here is the indication for use in asthma patient "Patients prescribed TA will by definition be people with very difficult to control asthma ± a history of severe acute episodes"
3. 40mg is the maximum dose for asthma, see point two.

So which ever way you want to cut it. Which ever diagnosis you take. It doesn't have medical validity, It was taken to improve performance.

And as always,

You're very welcome.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

On the subject of Wiggins and nasal polyps (from post on previous page), did BW ever have surgery for those? I know other cyclists and pro athletes have had that in the off-season, and lots of just regular joes who get it done. Would think surgery would be done for lots of athletes with the issue.

Nasal polyps appears to be another invention from the other poster over-page, along with an extra endoscopy that never happened.
Dunno if this is deliberate false info, honest mistakes, or if he's in-the-know and has seen all of Wiggins personal medicals.

Allergy Rhinitis (Rhinorrhea) is the diagnosis for Wiggins in the TUEs. To diagnose Rhinorrhea you have to perform an Endoscopy to see the Nasal Polyps. Not sure what else there is to explain, it's all there in each TUE? Obviously it would be nice if Fancy Bears had released 'all' of each athlete's TUE supporting documents, but they didn't for obvious reasons that many would probably invalidate their claim each TUE is doping and not theraputic and therefore weakening the 'doping' claims and purpose of the hacked leak.
The 2012 TUE also includes the additional diagnosis of Dyspnea which is basically shortening of the breath. Obviously if you have nasal polyps from the Rhinorrhea allergies blocking your breathing and Ahstma it would lead to Dyspnea.

I'm sorry my good doctor, but this is ~90% BS.

Definitions time:

Rhinorrhea - "The condition, commonly known as a runny nose" has absolutely nothing to do with nasal polyps. Nothing. Zilch. It's just a fancy term for lots of snot. Treatment generally consists of "blowing one's nose". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhinorrhea

Nasal Polyps - "Nasal polyps are soft, painless, noncancerous growths on the lining of your nasal passages or sinuses. They hang down like teardrops or grapes. They result from chronic inflammation due to asthma, recurring infection, allergies, drug sensitivity or certain immune disorders". http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/nasal-polyps/symptoms-causes/dxc-20267326

Dyspnea - "The American Thoracic Society defines it as "a subjective experience of breathing discomfort ". Note that it is not actual shortness of breath, but the subjective feeling of shortness of breath or uncomfortable breathing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortness_of_breath

The commonality here is that all three can be caused by allergies or asthma. Treating the asthma or allergies can relieve the symptoms. Who would have thought? Allergies can cause a runny nose and a sense of discomfort? Well, just about everyone during spring time I guess.

Other than that, polyps and a runny nose have nothing to do with one another, The polyps can usually be seen without an endoscopy and have no diagnostic value for determining if you have a runny nose. Take some time and look up the treatments for runny nose, polyps and uncomfortable breathing. The polyps can be surgically removed if they don't resolve by themselves. Asthma can be treated with inhalable cortico-steroids. Allergies are treated with anti-histamines.

Triamcinolone injection is the nuclear option. If he was truly that sick, he needed surgery for the polyps and a systemic steroid injection and lots of monitoring for his severe breathing problems. There's no way he should be racing. Anecdote: my son stopped responding to his inhaler during an asthma attack. After several hours of treating him at hospital, only then did the mildly panicking doctor give him the equivalent of what Sir Wiggins received.

John Swanson

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Sky

Love this.... from 1994, Riis's autobiography

Vaughters said something similar with Garmin. Remember he would quit the team if they had a positive, so called internal testing to keep riders clean. All BS.

Sky took it to another level and got a lot of UK fans with typewriters to spread the message. UK fans swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

 

[Dan2016]

Re: Re:

On the subject of Wiggins and nasal polyps (from post on previous page), did BW ever have surgery for those? I know other cyclists and pro athletes have had that in the off-season, and lots of just regular joes who get it done. Would think surgery would be done for lots of athletes with the issue.

Nasal polyps appears to be another invention from the other poster over-page, along with an extra endoscopy that never happened.
Dunno if this is deliberate false info, honest mistakes, or if he's in-the-know and has seen all of Wiggins personal medicals.

Allergy Rhinitis (Rhinorrhea) is the diagnosis for Wiggins in the TUEs. To diagnose Rhinorrhea you have to perform an Endoscopy to see the Nasal Polyps. Not sure what else there is to explain, it's all there in each TUE? Obviously it would be nice if Fancy Bears had released 'all' of each athlete's TUE supporting documents, but they didn't for obvious reasons that many would probably invalidate their claim each TUE is doping and not theraputic and therefore weakening the 'doping' claims and purpose of the hacked leak.
The 2012 TUE also includes the additional diagnosis of Dyspnea which is basically shortening of the breath. Obviously if you have nasal polyps from the Rhinorrhea allergies blocking your breathing and Ahstma it would lead to Dyspnea.

Sam, see John Swanson above for comprehensive answer...
I'll just add, what I think you're doing is unconsciously presenting speculations as facts due to false inferences. All we can see are the TUE's and that Guardian article, and all they tell us is: single endoscopy June 28th 2011, showing allergic rhinitis. Nasal polyps are not mentioned anywhere at any time. Rhinitis is simply nasal inflammation, runny nose etc.

Where are you going with this? (I'm curious)...I get the impression you think he has some slam-dunk medical proof that it was all legit - in which case, why sit on it all this time? His rep has been trashed. It's just hayfever medicals, not some embarrassing condition. (And this is all ignoring how far the story moved from just TUE's innit)

EDIT: Kenalog is serious stuff. First result from google ''hayfever kenalog'':
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2357775/Desperate-hay-fever-sufferers-turn-private-clinics-wonder-cure-jab-NHS-deems-toxic.html

 

[Zypherov]

Kenalog injections for allergies will not turn you into a Tour de France champion.

 

[Dan2016]

Re:

Kenalog injections for allergies will not turn you into a Tour de France champion.

Debatable, if you mean literally coming first in the race.
Wigans and all the rest are incredible riders though, no doubts about that.

 

[Mr.White]

Re:

Kenalog injections for allergies will not turn you into a Tour de France champion.

Well they turned Wiggins alright We all know how he rode before...

 

[Ironhead Slim]

Re:

Kenalog injections for allergies will not turn you into a Tour de France champion.

Nice pablum talking point. Kind of misses the actual story though. But, I guess, repeat it often enough...

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Kenalog injections for allergies will not turn you into a Tour de France champion.

add in HGH, Testosterone, epo, clen, aicar etc etc and it puts you in with a shout. :lol:

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

On the subject of Wiggins and nasal polyps (from post on previous page), did BW ever have surgery for those? I know other cyclists and pro athletes have had that in the off-season, and lots of just regular joes who get it done. Would think surgery would be done for lots of athletes with the issue.

Nasal polyps appears to be another invention from the other poster over-page, along with an extra endoscopy that never happened.
Dunno if this is deliberate false info, honest mistakes, or if he's in-the-know and has seen all of Wiggins personal medicals.

Allergy Rhinitis (Rhinorrhea) is the diagnosis for Wiggins in the TUEs. To diagnose Rhinorrhea you have to perform an Endoscopy to see the Nasal Polyps. Not sure what else there is to explain, it's all there in each TUE? Obviously it would be nice if Fancy Bears had released 'all' of each athlete's TUE supporting documents, but they didn't for obvious reasons that many would probably invalidate their claim each TUE is doping and not theraputic and therefore weakening the 'doping' claims and purpose of the hacked leak.
The 2012 TUE also includes the additional diagnosis of Dyspnea which is basically shortening of the breath. Obviously if you have nasal polyps from the Rhinorrhea allergies blocking your breathing and Ahstma it would lead to Dyspnea.

I'm sorry my good doctor, but this is ~90% BS.

Definitions time:

Rhinorrhea - "The condition, commonly known as a runny nose" has absolutely nothing to do with nasal polyps. Nothing. Zilch. It's just a fancy term for lots of snot. Treatment generally consists of "blowing one's nose". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhinorrhea

Nasal Polyps - "Nasal polyps are soft, painless, noncancerous growths on the lining of your nasal passages or sinuses. They hang down like teardrops or grapes. They result from chronic inflammation due to asthma, recurring infection, allergies, drug sensitivity or certain immune disorders". http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/nasal-polyps/symptoms-causes/dxc-20267326

Dyspnea - "The American Thoracic Society defines it as "a subjective experience of breathing discomfort ". Note that it is not actual shortness of breath, but the subjective feeling of shortness of breath or uncomfortable breathing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortness_of_breath

The commonality here is that all three can be caused by allergies or asthma. Treating the asthma or allergies can relieve the symptoms. Who would have thought? Allergies can cause a runny nose and a sense of discomfort? Well, just about everyone during spring time I guess.

Other than that, polyps and a runny nose have nothing to do with one another, The polyps can usually be seen without an endoscopy and have no diagnostic value for determining if you have a runny nose. Take some time and look up the treatments for runny nose, polyps and uncomfortable breathing. The polyps can be surgically removed if they don't resolve by themselves. Asthma can be treated with inhalable cortico-steroids. Allergies are treated with anti-histamines.

Triamcinolone injection is the nuclear option. If he was truly that sick, he needed surgery for the polyps and a systemic steroid injection and lots of monitoring for his severe breathing problems. There's no way he should be racing. Anecdote: my son stopped responding to his inhaler during an asthma attack. After several hours of treating him at hospital, only then did the mildly panicking doctor give him the equivalent of what Sir Wiggins received.

John Swanson

Polyp formation in the nasal cavity is either from allergic 'rhinitis' or cystic fibrosis. Rhinorrhea is simply one of it's symptoms. That's how my GP explained what allergic 'rhinitis' is and he would consider prescribing what Wiggins had if the ENT considered it serious-enough up until a few years ago. He said in 2011 he was prescribing it for those with long-term suffering and important life events where guaranteed relief was required or the more topical corticosteroids were causing other issues from long-term maximal use topically in the nose and in some cases simply no longer effective treatment. He said today, most of those patients get an annual injection privately because it's now against NHS guidelines in all but the most extreme cases.

The following is my Doctors guidance notes on using Triamcinolone for Rhinitis treatment.

UK and international guidelines suggest the management of hayfever should start with allergen avoidance
and if that fails, treatment with an antihistamine. Where these treatments are ineffective, regular intranasal
corticosteroids should be used. Intranasal steroids are more effective if used at the start of the season
and in the presence of established nasal congestion, a topical decongestant may be used for up to one
week as a pre-treatment. (1,2) Occasionally for patients with severe symptoms not responding to topical
steroids and antihistamines and when stringent control of symptoms is required, for example sitting exam
or getting married, it may be reasonable to supplement maintenance treatment with a brief course of oral
corticosteroids. These should however be used in the lowest effective dose (e.g. prednisolone up to 20 mg
daily for up to 5 days). Both UK and international guidelines advise against the routine use of injectable
corticosteroids for hayfever/

Triamcinolone (Kenalog) can be given IM - 4 mg is equivalent to 5mg of prednisolone and the usual dose
given is between 40-80mg in a season. The licensed indications include use in seasonal allergies in patients
who do not respond to conventional therapy.

I believe the above guidance comes from the British Society for Allergy and Clinical Immunology ENT subcommittee - Rhinitis Management Guidelines

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

Kenalog injections for allergies will not turn you into a Tour de France champion.

add in HGH, Testosterone, epo, clen, aicar etc etc and it puts you in with a shout. :lol:

Aicair is the hidden ingredient that people know about but haven't proven yet. This wonderful fat burner also retains muscle mass and power, making heavy pursuiters climbing legends.

At the time of Wiggins transformation, aiciar was just a whisper in the peloton, but it was there and it was available.

 

[red_flanders]

Re:

Kenalog injections for allergies will not turn you into a Tour de France champion.

Why in the world would we assume he was only cheating the one way he was caught? That defies logic.

 

[samhocking]

My points are related more to any investigation into Wiggins TUEs not being therapeutic in terms of him requiring evidence if it ever came to that either for himself to prove innocence or to disprove theories the package was Triamcinolone and he received an injection. He has access to all the information and ENT reports if he wants to do both once UKAD allow him to speak and release documents.

The history of his first Triamcinilone injection really begins in 2008 and earlier and as the years go by his doctors from before Garmin, within Garmin and then Sky move him to more powerful Corticosteroid allergy treatments that follow the British Society for Allergy and Clinical Immunology advice pretty much to the letter. So assuming the documents back up what is claimed the TUE itself can be justified not only legally, but ethically too because that is in line with those setting the treatment guidance at least in UK at the time.

>3 years before 2011 (so at least from 2007) Maximal treatment using Flixotide inhaler + Ventolin, Clarityn, Avamys & Opticrom
2007 -Cofidis - Flixotide inhaler + Ventolin, Clarityn, Avamys & Opticrom (assume Salbutomol too?)
2008 - Team High Road Salbutomol TUE + allowance for 250ng of Fluticosone Corticosteroid nasal spray per day also + Antihistamines etc from above list
2009 - Garmin–Slipstream Salbutomol TUE + More powerful inhaled Budesonide Corticosteroid TUE replaces last years Fluticosone Corticosteroid + Antihistamines etc from above list
2010 - Team Sky TUE no longer required for Salbutomol or inhaled Budesonide Corticosteroid under WADA, so why there are no 2010 TUEs + Antihistamines etc from above list. Treatment at sky same as at Garmin previous year it seems.
2011 - Team Sky Triamcinolone TUE replaces Budesonide & Flixotide after Endoscopy despite maximal therapy of Budesonide & Flixotide etc. Assume still taking Salbutomol within WADA limits.
2012 - Team Sky As 2011 with additional ENT documents
2013 - Team Sky As 2012 with additional ENT documents

So he went from oral antihistamines at Cofidis to Corticosteroid nasal sprays at High Road, to more powerful Corticosteroid inhalers at Garmin to injected IM Corticosteroid after a year at Sky which is the treatment progression British Society for Allergy and Clinical Immunology advised. i.e. you can't go straight into an injection, you have to exhaust all oral treatments first to maximal therapy first according to their guidance and this is what the ENT confirms has been done.

My overriding argument is for Wiggins to want to apply illegally for an IM Triamcinilone injection in 2011 and for CAS to be satisfied it was, the history and supporting medical evidence already exists or not at WADA and passes back through doctors and consultants while riding at Garmin, High Road & Cofidis. Sky might have looked at his medical history at Garmin, High Road & Cofidis and noticed the Corticosteroid theme throughout his road career so far and then decided there was enough history that with a fake endoscopy and fabricated maximal treatment in 2010 his first year at Sky, it would allow an injection in 2011 TUE. The claims so far are not that the TUE was illegally applied for and/or illegally granted using false documents. The history of treatment looking at Wiggins several TUE notes seems to build the history of long-term allergy treatment an expert witness such as a Dr from British Society for Allergy and Clinical Immunology might be called on by CAS should any of this ever go to CAS.

 

[Eyeballs Out]

Re: Re:

Kenalog injections for allergies will not turn you into a Tour de France champion.

Why in the world would we assume he was only cheating the one way he was caught? That defies logic.

The true meaning of #marginalgains

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

Re: Re:

Kenalog injections for allergies will not turn you into a Tour de France champion.

Why in the world would we assume he was only cheating the one way he was caught? That defies logic.

It is logical if you assume perfect testing. If he was cheating some other way as well, he would've been caught for that too. It defies prior knowledge and common sense more than logic imo.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

Kenalog injections for allergies will not turn you into a Tour de France champion.

Why in the world would we assume he was only cheating the one way he was caught? That defies logic.

It is logical if you assume perfect testing. If he was cheating some other way as well, he would've been caught for that too. It defies prior knowledge and common sense more than logic imo.

Certainly perfect or even adequate testing does not exist. Therefore...

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Kenalog injections for allergies will not turn you into a Tour de France champion.

Why in the world would we assume he was only cheating the one way he was caught? That defies logic.

It is logical if you assume perfect testing. If he was cheating some other way as well, he would've been caught for that too. It defies prior knowledge and common sense more than logic imo.

Testing, now there is a great sporting joke, perhaps the greatest!!!

 

[Zypherov]

Re: Re:

Kenalog injections for allergies will not turn you into a Tour de France champion.

Why in the world would we assume he was only cheating the one way he was caught? That defies logic.

Caught doing what? He got TUE'S to use this medication. That's not cheating. I myself got several steroid injections for hay fever. They are now no longer available. They did not make me feel any different. In other words they don't enhance one's performance. Although they do help with the symptoms. You guys are going way, way over the top about a few injections of Kenalog which the guy obviously needed for a medical condition. That's the point I was trying to make. I am not assuming anything whatsoever. He has never tested positive. And I don't want to hear the neither did Marion Jones story either. How is it constructive to continually assert that Wiggins and Sky were doped to the gills when there is absolutely no evidence for that scenario whatsoever. And, yes that includes empirical evidence also. It's my belief that he won the Tour clean. That is my opinion. You're entitled to yours.

 

[Craigee]

Re: Re:

Kenalog injections for allergies will not turn you into a Tour de France champion.

Why in the world would we assume he was only cheating the one way he was caught? That defies logic.

Caught doing what? He got TUE'S to use this medication. That's not cheating. I myself got several steroid injections for hay fever. They are now no longer available. They did not make me feel any different. In other words they don't enhance one's performance. Although they do help with the symptoms. You guys are going way, way over the top about a few injections of Kenalog which the guy obviously needed for a medical condition. That's the point I was trying to make. I am not assuming anything whatsoever. He has never tested positive. And I don't want to hear the neither did Marion Jones story either. How is it constructive to continually assert that Wiggins and Sky were doped to the gills when there is absolutely no evidence for that scenario whatsoever. And, yes that includes empirical evidence also. It's my belief that he won the Tour clean. That is my opinion. You're entitled to yours.

You're dreaming mate. And that's my opinion.

 

[The Hegelian]

Re: Re:

Kenalog injections for allergies will not turn you into a Tour de France champion.

Why in the world would we assume he was only cheating the one way he was caught? That defies logic.

Caught doing what? He got TUE'S to use this medication. That's not cheating. I myself got several steroid injections for hay fever. They are now no longer available. They did not make me feel any different. In other words they don't enhance one's performance. Although they do help with the symptoms. You guys are going way, way over the top about a few injections of Kenalog which the guy obviously needed for a medical condition. That's the point I was trying to make. I am not assuming anything whatsoever. He has never tested positive. And I don't want to hear the neither did Marion Jones story either. How is it constructive to continually assert that Wiggins and Sky were doped to the gills when there is absolutely no evidence for that scenario whatsoever. And, yes that includes empirical evidence also. It's my belief that he won the Tour clean. That is my opinion. You're entitled to yours.

Can you please answer me these questions:

1. Have corticosteroids been consistently abused in the pro peloton or not?
2. Why did the MPCC have an explicit policy of corticosteriod usage = rider misses the race?
3. Why did Sky refuse to join the MPCC (despite being the self-proclaimed leader of clean cycling)?

Have a good think about them and then answer them individually as honestly as you can.

1,2,3.

Then let's see where we're at.

 

[Saint Unix]

Cortisone creams for saddle sores will not turn you into a Tour de France champion.

Caught doing what? He got TUE's to use this medication. That's not cheating. I myself have used cortisone creams for saddle sores. They are now no longer available. They did not make me feel any different. In other words they don't enhance one's performance. Although they do help with the symptoms. You guys are going way, way over the top about a bit of cortisone which the guy obviously needed for a medical condition. That's the point I was trying to make. I am not assuming anything whatsoever. He has never tested positive. And I don't want to hear the neither did Marion Jones story either. How is it constructive to continually assert that Armstrong and USPS were doped to the gills when there is absolutely no evidence for that scenario whatsoever. And, yes that includes empirical evidence also. It's my belief that he won the Tour clean. That is my opinion. You're entitled to yours.

A few words switched and we have quotes that sum up the bots on this forum from five to ten years ago.

 

[70kmph]

What happen to the 60 missing Kenacort injections... just take a wild guess

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

Kenalog injections for allergies will not turn you into a Tour de France champion.

Why in the world would we assume he was only cheating the one way he was caught? That defies logic.

Caught doing what? He got TUE'S to use this medication. That's not cheating. I myself got several steroid injections for hay fever. They are now no longer available. They did not make me feel any different. In other words they don't enhance one's performance. Although they do help with the symptoms. You guys are going way, way over the top about a few injections of Kenalog which the guy obviously needed for a medical condition. That's the point I was trying to make. I am not assuming anything whatsoever. He has never tested positive. And I don't want to hear the neither did Marion Jones story either. How is it constructive to continually assert that Wiggins and Sky were doped to the gills when there is absolutely no evidence for that scenario whatsoever. And, yes that includes empirical evidence also. It's my belief that he won the Tour clean. That is my opinion. You're entitled to yours.

We have a different view of the situation. To say there is "no evidence" is patently absurd. There is a mountain evidence and quite a bit of proof that they were using TUE's as a cover for extensive steroid use. You can believe that the one thing they got caught doing (which they always said they were NEVER doing) is the only thing, but it's IMO laughable. I won't re-iterate the years-long case about Sky and their lies, absurd performances and flat out use of drugs. If you don't accept those facts there's nothing to discuss.

 

[Dan2016]

Re: Re:

Kenalog injections for allergies will not turn you into a Tour de France champion.

Why in the world would we assume he was only cheating the one way he was caught? That defies logic.

Caught doing what? He got TUE'S to use this medication. That's not cheating. I myself got several steroid injections for hay fever. They are now no longer available. They did not make me feel any different. In other words they don't enhance one's performance. Although they do help with the symptoms. You guys are going way, way over the top about a few injections of Kenalog which the guy obviously needed for a medical condition. That's the point I was trying to make. I am not assuming anything whatsoever. He has never tested positive. And I don't want to hear the neither did Marion Jones story either. How is it constructive to continually assert that Wiggins and Sky were doped to the gills when there is absolutely no evidence for that scenario whatsoever. And, yes that includes empirical evidence also. It's my belief that he won the Tour clean. That is my opinion. You're entitled to yours.

We have a different view of the situation. To say there is "no evidence" is patently absurd. There is a mountain evidence and quite a bit of proof that they were using TUE's as a cover for extensive steroid use. You can believe that the one thing they got caught doing (which they always said they were NEVER doing) is the only thing, but it's IMO laughable. I won't re-iterate the years-long case about Sky and their lies, absurd performances and flat out use of drugs. If you don't accept those facts there's nothing to discuss.

But but but...the hard facts are on the side of the defense innit - there are zero positive tests.
The (very strong) circumstantial evidence is on the side of the prosecution, which is the majority of the Clinic (meself included).

The Hegelian has already set some questions for the defense. I'll add:

1. How do you explain Froome looking like a bike alien? (just kidding just kidding)
2. How do you explain the truly bizarre chain of events around the wee magic bag of jiffy?
3. How do you explain Gollum's flappy hands? (please answer this one)

#sillyquestionsandwich