Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Roninho]

Re: Re:

What is interesting to me is how they make this work. I mean 5 wins in 6 years with 3 different cyclist who all don't have the typical GT career build up. It is so hard to win a GT and they just do it with guys that are no Eddie M.

Is it a new form of doping that is undetectable? Is it mechanical doping? Is it the knowledge that they won't be tested/caught? What is it?

Well maybe the idea of a typical GT career build-up is no longer so typical, with the current developments in science and facilities. I can imagine that in the past, future GT winners would climb to the top more slowly, by trial-and-error. Nowadays it is possibly easier to get yourself into top shape for a GT, enabling riders to compete for the top step much quicker.

'First of all, i wouldnt call Thomas an example of enabling to compete for the top step much quicker. He has been at Sky for years and at age 32 he turns into a contender.

But that isn't the point i was trying to make. The point is that in all these years of cycling in the end winning the TDF is so hard that is is only possible for a very limited amount of cyclist. And no team has been able to replicate this succes unless they signed the best talent available. But Sky is capable of doing this with guys nobody (they included it seems) thought were capable ... 3 guys, 6 titles in 7 years. That is weird and i cannot explain it in a way without ''illegal' actions.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re:

The worst GC placings by a future Tour de France winner in the last 50 years (via L'Equipe and Mihai Cazacu):

No one does transformations quite like Sky.

This list is so telling. I never thought that Indurain was so low in the first Tour. I understand that he was working for Delgado but still.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

Does anyone know what caused Thomas to say that his win will stand the test of time? Or is that now in the Sky Ladybird book of what to say when you've just taken the p! Ss out of everyone?

only one group of people taking the piss here...made up ***

The only peeing going on here is on someone's little Sky parade. Maybe a Sky Gabba jersey and armwarmers would be appropriate protection?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Re: Re:

The worst GC placings by a future Tour de France winner in the last 50 years (via L'Equipe and Mihai Cazacu):

No one does transformations quite like Sky.

This list is so telling. I never thought that Indurain was so low in the first Tour. I understand that he was working for Delgado but still.

Larraya was FAT.

Conconi even told him he was too fat to work with.

Common knowlegde.

Wasnt working for Delgado as Delgado was riding for PDM that year 1987

Perico wasnt very good on PDM by the way...

Larraya became awesome around 1989, when dont be late Pedro missed the start in Luxembourg?

Could have won there already, EPO Mig.

Larraya also just needed to loose the fat, like the Sky boys from now.

It seems to work in the history of cycling...

 

[JosephK]

Re: Sky

Kwiatkowski :lol:

Gonna get his transformation on.

 

[rick james]

Re: Sky

Kwiatkowski :lol:

whats up? he done something amazing?

 

[Norks74]

Re: Re:

The worst GC placings by a future Tour de France winner in the last 50 years (via L'Equipe and Mihai Cazacu):

No one does transformations quite like Sky.

This list is so telling. I never thought that Indurain was so low in the first Tour. I understand that he was working for Delgado but still.

Larraya was FAT.

Conconi even told him he was too fat to work with.

Common knowlegde.

Wasnt working for Delgado as Delgado was riding for PDM that year 1987

Perico wasnt very good on PDM by the way...

Larraya became awesome around 1989, when dont be late Pedro missed the start in Luxembourg?

Could have won there already, EPO Mig.

Larraya also just needed to loose the fat, like the Sky boys from now.

It seems to work in the history of cycling...

Interesting that other than Thomas it was four to six years before the others got to the top spot whereas GT took nearly twice as long to do so.

 

[brownbobby]

Re: Sky

Kwiatkowski :lol:

Gonna get his transformation on.

So what is this National time trial champion, former world champion, stage race winner, monument winner and all round super talented from a young age cyclist going to transform into do you think....a butterfly maybe?

 

[JosephK]

Re: Sky

Kwiatkowski :lol:

Gonna get his transformation on.

So what is this National time trial champion, former world champion, stage race winner, monument winner and all round super talented from a young age cyclist going to transform into do you think....a butterfly maybe?

At 28, zero top tens in grand tours, but just for kicks, this year, let's see if he podiums the Vuelta after having towed the train for three weeks in the TDF. Nothing special.

 

[pastronef]

Re: Sky

Kwiatkowski :lol:

Gonna get his transformation on.

So what is this National time trial champion, former world champion, stage race winner, monument winner and all round super talented from a young age cyclist going to transform into do you think....a butterfly maybe?

At 28, zero top tens in grand tours, but just for kicks, this year, let's see if he podiums the Vuelta after having towed the train for three weeks in the TDF. Nothing special.

almost 1 top10: 11th at TDF in 2013 with Etixx-Quickstep

 

[ppanther92]

Re:

The worst GC placings by a future Tour de France winner in the last 50 years (via L'Equipe and Mihai Cazacu):

No one does transformations quite like Sky.

Wow, interesting. And we all know why Indurain and Riis transformed.

 

[brownbobby]

Re: Re:

The worst GC placings by a future Tour de France winner in the last 50 years (via L'Equipe and Mihai Cazacu):

No one does transformations quite like Sky.

Wow, interesting. And we all know why Indurain and Riis transformed.

Just for context, perhaps we should also consider how many Olympic gold medals those on that list won between their first GT appearance and eventual GT success...

 

[Saint Unix]

Re: Sky

almost 1 top10: 11th at TDF in 2013 with Etixx-Quickstep

Yeah, he was just nuts in that Tour. I don't think any other rider was as prominent as him over the course of the race. He was working like a horse for Cavendish on the flat stages and still managed to glue himself to the top guys on the hard mountain stages and deliver two blazing TTs. One of the most impressive Tour debuts I've ever seen. In fact, I'm surprised he hasn't done better in GTs since then.

 

[Bolder]

Re: Sky

almost 1 top10: 11th at TDF in 2013 with Etixx-Quickstep

Yeah, he was just nuts in that Tour. I don't think any other rider was as prominent as him over the course of the race. He was working like a horse for Cavendish on the flat stages and still managed to glue himself to the top guys on the hard mountain stages and deliver two blazing TTs. One of the most impressive Tour debuts I've ever seen. In fact, I'm surprised he hasn't done better in GTs since then.

Kwiatkowski turning into a GC contender wouldn't necessarily be as much of a stretch as, say, Wiggins. With the right course and good luck, it could happen.

What I will say about him is that his capacity for work seems extra-ordinary. He's already got something like 65 racing days, including being at the pointy end of the tdf for what seemed like days on end.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Sky

Kwiatkowski :lol:

Gonna get his transformation on.

So what is this National time trial champion, former world champion, stage race winner, monument winner and all round super talented from a young age cyclist going to transform into do you think....a butterfly maybe?

At 28, zero top tens in grand tours, but just for kicks, this year, let's see if he podiums the Vuelta after having towed the train for three weeks in the TDF. Nothing special.

almost 1 top10: 11th at TDF in 2013 with Etixx-Quickstep

Etixx-Quickstep that not even swarfega will clean!!!!!!!!

 

[Robert5091]

Kwia is just 28 so he's just a "late climbing developer" (lost the fat maybe too)

 

[brownbobby]

Re:

Kwia is just 28 so he's just a "late climbing developer" (lost the fat maybe too)

Oh come on...i know this is a pretty lean GT in terms of the usual suspects from Sky for us to scream 'TRANSFORMATION' at, but it really does sound a little desperate trying to paint Kwiatkowski as suddenly showing some GT ability out of nowhere......results in previous GT's aren't always the best marker of abilities, you have to look at what his role within the team has been in said GT's.

Now on the point about how much work hes done already this year and still showing good form, well that's something which can plausibly be debated from a Clinic angle if you so wish...

 

[Mamil]

Re: Re:

Kwia is just 28 so he's just a "late climbing developer" (lost the fat maybe too)

Oh come on...i know this is a pretty lean GT in terms of the usual suspects from Sky for us to scream 'TRANSFORMATION' at, but it really does sound a little desperate trying to paint Kwiatkowski as suddenly showing some GT ability out of nowhere......results in previous GT's aren't always the best marker of abilities, you have to look at what his role within the team has been in said GT's.

Now on the point about how much work hes done already this year and still showing good form, well that's something which can plausibly be debated from a Clinic angle if you so wish...

That's more or less my thinking. Kwiatkowski is obviously a massive talent, and I think properly prepared and focused he could certainly become a legitimate GT contender if he put his mind to it. But in the current context it would be raising some serious questions if, and I highly doubt it, we're still talking about him in 2 weeks time as a likely podium finisher.

The ability is probably there, but Kwia has had an awful lot of racing this year, and only recently absolutely flogged himself at the Tour, so it would be downright crazy if a guy with that many racing days in his legs, and that much work done as a domestique, who has only once before had a serious crack at a GC result, could now become a contender. Like it or not, the fact that he would be yet another Sky rider gunning for GT glory would only increase the suspicions that he's just another result of the Sky special program, whatever that is exactly.

There is clear evidence that Kwia is intentionally transitioning from a classics specialist to a stage racer - his chosen races and results this year compared to previous ones are solid proof of that - but this Vuelta would be too soon, and after too much, to be believable. If he uses it purely as a testing exercise, and manages a bottom of the top 10 result, and then is given a proper crack at the Giro or Vuelta next year with targeted prep, well and good, and certainly more in line with his apparent natural talent and strengths than any Sky rider before him, but not here and now. That would be just a bit rich.

 

[pastronef]

Re: Re:

Kwia is just 28 so he's just a "late climbing developer" (lost the fat maybe too)

Oh come on...i know this is a pretty lean GT in terms of the usual suspects from Sky for us to scream 'TRANSFORMATION' at, but it really does sound a little desperate trying to paint Kwiatkowski as suddenly showing some GT ability out of nowhere......results in previous GT's aren't always the best marker of abilities, you have to look at what his role within the team has been in said GT's.

Now on the point about how much work hes done already this year and still showing good form, well that's something which can plausibly be debated from a Clinic angle if you so wish...

That's more or less my thinking. Kwiatkowski is obviously a massive talent, and I think properly prepared and focused he could certainly become a legitimate GT contender if he put his mind to it. But in the current context it would be raising some serious questions if, and I highly doubt it, we're still talking about him in 2 weeks time as a likely podium finisher.

The ability is probably there, but Kwia has had an awful lot of racing this year, and only recently absolutely flogged himself at the Tour, so it would be downright crazy if a guy with that many racing days in his legs, and that much work done as a domestique, who has only once before had a serious crack at a GC result, could now become a contender. Like it or not, the fact that he would be yet another Sky rider gunning for GT glory would only increase the suspicions that he's just another result of the Sky special program, whatever that is exactly.

There is clear evidence that Kwia is intentionally transitioning from a classics specialist to a stage racer - his chosen races and results this year compared to previous ones are solid proof of that - but this Vuelta would be too soon, and after too much, to be believable. If he uses it purely as a testing exercise, and manages a bottom of the top 10 result, and then is given a proper crack at the Giro or Vuelta next year with targeted prep, well and good, and certainly more in line with his apparent natural talent and strengths than any Sky rider before him, but not here and now. That would be just a bit rich.

in 2014, when he won the Worlds he did 18500 kms of racing

won at mallorca challenge
won Algarve
won Strade Bianche
2nd Basque Country
2nd Tour of Britain

by the end of the Vuelta 2018 he´ll have 14000 kms of racing

 

[rick james]

Re: Re:

Kwia is just 28 so he's just a "late climbing developer" (lost the fat maybe too)

Oh come on...i know this is a pretty lean GT in terms of the usual suspects from Sky for us to scream 'TRANSFORMATION' at, but it really does sound a little desperate trying to paint Kwiatkowski as suddenly showing some GT ability out of nowhere......results in previous GT's aren't always the best marker of abilities, you have to look at what his role within the team has been in said GT's.

Now on the point about how much work hes done already this year and still showing good form, well that's something which can plausibly be debated from a Clinic angle if you so wish...

That's more or less my thinking. Kwiatkowski is obviously a massive talent, and I think properly prepared and focused he could certainly become a legitimate GT contender if he put his mind to it. But in the current context it would be raising some serious questions if, and I highly doubt it, we're still talking about him in 2 weeks time as a likely podium finisher.

The ability is probably there, but Kwia has had an awful lot of racing this year, and only recently absolutely flogged himself at the Tour, so it would be downright crazy if a guy with that many racing days in his legs, and that much work done as a domestique, who has only once before had a serious crack at a GC result, could now become a contender. Like it or not, the fact that he would be yet another Sky rider gunning for GT glory would only increase the suspicions that he's just another result of the Sky special program, whatever that is exactly.

There is clear evidence that Kwia is intentionally transitioning from a classics specialist to a stage racer - his chosen races and results this year compared to previous ones are solid proof of that - but this Vuelta would be too soon, and after too much, to be believable. If he uses it purely as a testing exercise, and manages a bottom of the top 10 result, and then is given a proper crack at the Giro or Vuelta next year with targeted prep, well and good, and certainly more in line with his apparent natural talent and strengths than any Sky rider before him, but not here and now. That would be just a bit rich.

in 2014, when he won the Worlds he did 18500 kms of racing

won at mallorca challenge
won Algarve
won Strade Bianche
2nd Basque Country
2nd Tour of Britain

by the end of the Vuelta 2018 he´ll have 14000 kms of racing

offt facts..that won't go down well

 

[roundabout]

what's the source for 2014 numbers?

it's different on CQ for example

http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider_stats.asp?riderid=12923

 

[wansteadimp]

Re:

what's the source for 2014 numbers?

it's different on CQ for example

http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider_stats.asp?riderid=12923

Don't know where the numbers come from but on the CQ page linked it says "* Only races of category .1 or above and finished races are counted!".

He DNFed Tour de Romandie after 3 stages plus prologue and the Dauphine after 6 stages including an ITT - so that might be it.

 

[Mamil]

Re: Re:

in 2014, when he won the Worlds he did 18500 kms of racing

won at mallorca challenge
won Algarve
won Strade Bianche
2nd Basque Country
2nd Tour of Britain

by the end of the Vuelta 2018 he´ll have 14000 kms of racing

It's not as simple as mere numbers, as I'm sure you'll know. Firstly the worlds is just one day - much easier to build and hold sufficient form for that one day, even late in the season, than it is for 3 weeks.

Secondly the type of racing has been different. He's focused a little more on stage racing this year, and most important is his Tour effort. He buried himself for days in this year's edition. I refuse to believe it's possible clean to do as much domestique work as he did in July, and then turn around and be a lead GC contender come late August, having done another stage race in between.

Would that seem reasonable to you?

 

[Mamil]

Re: Sky

Or let's look at what really matters most - his k's this year in comparison with his rivals.

Excluding Kelderman, who's been injured, if we look at the CQ data for Uran, Yates, Quintana, Aru, Pinot, Bennett, Lopez and Valverde, they have all raced between 6270 and 8973km this year. Kwiatkowski is a clear outlier, having done 10,180km.

On top of this Quintana is the only one who probably put in as much effort at the Tour as Kwiatkowski - some of the others of course weren't even there.

So if Kwiatkowski can still be hanging with these guys in the 3rd week, considering all of the above, I think I can safely say that that would be remarkable.

 

[thehog]

Re: Sky

Or let's look at what really matters most - his k's this year in comparison with his rivals.

Excluding Kelderman, who's been injured, if we look at the CQ data for Uran, Yates, Quintana, Aru, Pinot, Bennett, Lopez and Valverde, they have all raced between 6270 and 8973km this year. Kwiatkowski is a clear outlier, having done 10,180km.

On top of this Quintana is the only one who probably put in as much effort at the Tour as Kwiatkowski - some of the others of course weren't even there.

So if Kwiatkowski can still be hanging with these guys in the 3rd week, considering all of the above, I think I can safely say that that would be remarkable.

Well said and it’s very likely that MK will be there on Sundays first real MTF and into the third week.

Heck, Sky riders might even go 1-2-3 at the Worlds