Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

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Aug 24, 2011
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Galic Ho said:
Wow, so you can use proper punctuation...like I did. So what does a question mark imply? Can't be too hard for you to figure out. I left a few questions. Answer is up to the poster...not me. You're wide awake today aren't you?:rolleyes:

I think you have misunderstood what I was asking. You implied that if someone defends team Sky, or does not adhere to your belief that they are doping, that they are either a Sky fanboy, or an idiot. I was asking whether or not that was your stance, if so it is a little ridiculous.

I'm sorry if you misunderstood me.
 
May 26, 2009
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samerics said:
No trepidation required, just a fully functioning brain that hasn't succumbed to paranoia :). What has changed is that USPS able to support and dominate stages in an era where doping was heavier, and what's more, they were capable of supporting who was juiced to the gills and capable of putting in ridiculous performances. Hardly Team Sky when you look at the wattages!

Again: what has fundamentally changed so suddenly there is no full scale doping?

Why are you avoiding the hard questions? ;)
 
Jun 7, 2010
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Great team bought by vast financial resources? Porte was likely signed relatively cheapily (even if they paid a lot more money than a cheapskate like Riis was prepared to offer :D), Froome turned good when he was close to being kicked out so they probably got him for peanuts from Barloworld(?) , Rogers was a solid rider, but hardly a superstar so they also probably didn't need to break the bank to sign him.

They probably do have a good eye for talent, but they certainly have not been buying big names BMC classics team style.
 
May 25, 2010
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Franklin said:
Again: what has fundamentally changed so suddenly there is no full scale doping?

Why are you avoiding the hard questions? ;)

Why are you failing to come up with a scrap of evidence?
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
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samerics said:
I only came on here to look at this thread. Apoplexy predicted and recieved.... No one looked at climb times, wattages, anything? Still why bother, you guys know it all anyway, armchair cynics. Pathetic. Give me a cheat and I say punish him, but until you have any evidence or smoking gun, pack it in.

Which begs the question, why did you only come to check this thread?

It appears you looked at today's performance and knew that it would generate discussion - so it seems that even you found their performance remarkable.
 
May 26, 2009
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samerics said:
Why are you failing to come up with a scrap of evidence?

I'm sorry, but this is amusing, so let me repeat as you seem to have lost your glasses.

1. The past 25 years learnt that team efforts as these are all tainted. I know of no exception.
2. The team signed several people high on the "suspicious list".
3. The medical team is dodgy to say the least.
4. Riders miraculously recovered/changed into thoroughbreds. (Rogers and Froome for example).

So I gave my reasons a few times.

Yet the simple question I ask, namely WHY did they sign these particular doctors is met with an uncomfortable silence.
 
Feb 20, 2010
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samerics said:
Don't ruin their fun!! Exactly, knee jerk stuff on a stage that isn't even one of the biggies where the ridiculous performances, a la Armstrong, Pantani etc have emerged in the past. It's a great team bought by vast financial resources, and a medical team of experience is bound to, when we have had an era like we've just had, have people in it who've worked on teams who doped. Are they not allowed a chance too? Basso was, and he was actually banned, not just guilty by association!!

I think part of what's galling was that they came in with the "nobody who's ever had any connection with doping. Ever!" approach. I don't know if they perhaps hadn't banked on how hard that would be. After all, while they may be able to assemble a pretty good squad of clean riders these days, getting the experienced Directeurs Sportif and doctors, mechanics etc who weren't around in the bad old days is nigh on impossible. And while when they took on this philosophy it was greeted with great fanfare and attention... when it was dropped it was with nary a whisper. Of course, it was suspicious that it had ever been in place what with Michael Barry on the 2010 squad, but in signing people like Rogers after a pretty disappointing 2010 season it was clear that it was being abandoned.

The other thing is that, while the bio-passport may not reduce the number of dopers in the péloton, it may reduce the amount of doping, in that the amount being used is no longer the brazen "wake-me-up-in-the-night-as-if-I-sleep-more-than-four-hours-my-blood-will-clot-and-I-will-die" days of the Mapei Roubaix, Bjarne Riis and Gewiss-Ballan at La Flèche Wallonne. Therefore the numbers that are produced on these climbs may not match up to the numbers of Pantani et al, but the riders still have an unfair advantage over others who are either clean or not taking the same gambles on amount as them. Riccardo Riccò was not the only guy doping in the 2008 Tour, but he sure had an advantage over the likes of Kohl, who were doing the same thing, and over a number of other shady riders there, no? Floyd Landis' epic 2006 raid was not because he was dirty and everybody else was clean, but rather that most of them were dirty and he was the one willing to go furthest.

With the various comments about the small time gaps to people like Cancellara and Gallopin, it's understandable that sceptical eyebrows may need to be lowered slightly. But there's only so many times that the same team can have three or four guys left while most of the other favourites disappoint before eyebrows are raised. I mean, the other favourites can't ALL underperform forever, right? I mean, this was the excuse for why the Vuelta wasn't suspicious... why Paris-Nice was such a walkover... why Romandie was comfortable... why the 4 of the 9 at the Dauphiné wasn't supposed to be found suspicious... and now this. That's a fair few times now where Sky have all conveniently converged upon the best form together while seemingly every other team has made a mess of their preparation.

It's a bit like Armstrong's blood values in the 2009 Tour, when he posted them. They dropped, and jumped back up, and dropped, and jumped back up. They stayed within a fairly small range, and given the parameters of testing and the variables such as altitude, dehydration and so on, nothing concrete could be drawn from them... but that didn't mean they didn't look suspicious as all hell. Team Sky's performances, in isolation, may be explicable given other parameters such as other teams' disappointing races, form of contenders, numbers produced and so on... but it's happening often enough now where it's hard to swallow the whole "they weren't that good, everybody else was just disappointing" argument any longer.
 
Aug 13, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
It appears you looked at today's performance and knew that it would generate discussion - so it seems that even you found their performance remarkable.
At the end of any race or stage I look in this forum to see what are people posting regardless of performance (remarkable or otherwise). As in any forum sometimes it is interesting and very informative, and sometimes it is knee jerk reaction or just rubbish. The trick is to try to filter the former from the latter.
 
May 25, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
Which begs the question, why did you only come to check this thread?

It appears you looked at today's performance and knew that it would generate discussion - so it seems that even you found their performance remarkable.

Because Sky won a stage, and I knew what would happen on here, and it has! Hardly unpredictable was it, there a thread in the Clinic about them! :D
 
May 26, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
Which begs the question, why did you only come to check this thread?

It appears you looked at today's performance and knew that it would generate discussion - so it seems that even you found their performance remarkable.

Oh my, now that's a sharp remark! :D
 
Feb 20, 2010
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samerics said:
No trepidation required, just a fully functioning brain that hasn't succumbed to paranoia :). What has changed is that USPS able to support and dominate stages in an era where doping was heavier, and what's more, they were capable of supporting a guy who was juiced to the gills and capable of putting in ridiculous performances. Hardly Team Sky when you look at the wattages!

True, but then USPS were only doing it in a handful of races because of the limited race program of the leader. Sky have been doing this all season with no respite.
 
Feb 20, 2010
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samerics said:
Because Sky won a stage, and I knew what would happen on here, and it has! Hardly unpredictable was it, there a thread in the Clinic about them! :D

How about after Cavendish's win then, did you come check the Sky doping thread then?

That was unremarkable. Cavendish winning a sprint stage is not eyebrow-raising or circumstantial evidence of doping. Today's stage has got people talking because it was eyebrow-raising and is seen as circumstantial evidence of doping.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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SaxonUK said:
Are you part of the Sky support staff? If not, I'm not sure how you could possibly make these assumptions, and assumptions is what they are.

You can point to any man in the peloton and see stages or even entire grand tours where their performance has been suspect.

Any man in any race? You don't want to take that challenge. You be trolling. Make it less obvious. Drop the UK from your next handle.

When were the doctors hired? Do you even know the name of the drug Wiggins used to strip the muslce he lost? The 10 odd kilos of it! Do you know how good that drug really is? Or is it not surprising that when Wiggins joined Sky, Alan Lim and his rice cakes didn't follow him from Garmin nor were any of these new specialists working for the team.

Anyone who doesn't call BS on riding 2010 like Wiggins did and two years later having a season like this is a damn fool. Or a trolling fanboy. Enjoy denial. Take a number, go join the Sky groupies and get down on your knees if you don't want to question. That's literally about all you'd be good for. That and baying in the wind.
 
May 26, 2009
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Libertine Seguros said:
Iays, getting the experienced Directeurs Sportif and doctors, mechanics etc who weren't around in the bad old days is nigh on impossible.

Nonsense on the bolded part. They even got their doctors from other sports.. where they also had quite the "experience". These doctors are in no way chosen by a lottery. Their reputations are simply way and way to big.

It's odd to think you can't get a clean doctor and a clean mechanic. It's utter ridiculous and an insult to all honest doctors out there.
 
Aug 24, 2011
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Libertine Seguros said:
How about after Cavendish's win then, did you come check the Sky doping thread then?

Same reason why I checked after todays stage, Cavendish winning a sprint finish isn't out of the ordinary. Sky powering up mountains and 'better' climbers being dropped is, not out of the realm of possibility, but enough to know that certain Clinic regulars would be tapping angrily at their keyboards, claiming that the whole team is doped up to the gills and that their favourite sport (which has always had its fair share of doping) is a shadow of its former self, and that it should return to the good old days, before doping, disregarding the fact that the good ol' days were in fact full of dopers.
 
May 25, 2010
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Look, I don't know if Sky are doping or not, but the point is neither does anyone else! The farcical thing about the clinic is the way opinion is blithely bandied around as fact, and that's what I'm getting at. I repeat the point, anyone involved in the 90's and 00's will have been tainted by doping, but does that mean they are not allowed to work again? If there are rules that say that then fine, but there aren't. I don't like Sky's hypocrisy, but that doesn't mean they are doping.
 
Jan 20, 2011
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samerics said:
One final thing, you guys say virtually everyone is doping anyway, how come Sky are so much better? Are they the only team with money? They're hardly working with Ferrari are they?

No, they are working with Kerrison, Leinders and Peters.Three fantastic doctors who have never been embroiled in doping scandals:D
 
Apr 18, 2011
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Well all I can say is sky's 'new' approaches to 'sports science' is having results never seen before because we know similar teams in the past were frauds, certain riders on close to a 4 month peak. Even Armstrong must be blushing ....
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Mr Pumpy said:
What you have here is the complete opposite of what some of you think is going on. What stands out is not that Sky got ahead, but that people like Schleck couldn't keep up. Hmm...wonder why that is?

Sky's pace wasn't so outrageous that an isolated Evans couldn't hang on and attack. What you are witnessing gentleman, is not a team of dopers ripping it up, but a a bunch of ex-dopers not being able to go quite as fast as they used to.

Last year saw a level playing field, and this year we have the same.

You sound like the kind of guy who'd buy an ocean-front villa in switzerland for a "one time special offer price call now"
 
Feb 20, 2010
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Franklin said:
Nonsense on the bolded part. They even got their doctors from other sports.. where they also had quite the "experience". These doctors are in no way chosen by a lottery. Their reputations are simply way and way to big.

It's odd to think you can't get a clean doctor and a clean mechanic. It's utter ridiculous and an insult to all honest doctors out there.

Fair enough, so you come from the school of thought that says it would be easier to get clean doctors than I was suggesting.

In which case why Geert Leinders?
 
Aug 24, 2011
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Galic Ho said:
Any man in any race? You don't want to take that challenge. You be trolling. Make it less obvious. Drop the UK from your next handle.

When were the doctors hired? Do you even know the name of the drug Wiggins used to strip the muslce he lost? The 10 odd kilos of it! Do you know how good that drug really is? Or is it not surprising that when Wiggins joined Sky, Alan Lim and his rice cakes didn't follow him from Garmin nor were any of these new specialists working for the team.

Anyone who doesn't call BS on riding 2010 like Wiggins did and two years later having a season like this is a damn fool. Or a trolling fanboy. Enjoy denial. Take a number, go join the Sky groupies and get down on your knees if you don't want to question. That's literally about all you'd be good for. That and baying in the wind.

I admit, claiming that you can point to ANY rider in the tour and see results that are suspect was stupid of me. I will instead bring it down to GC contenders and those that this forum in particular have a plausible reason to believe can win the yellow jersey.

Also, just because I am from the UK does not make my opinion any less valid, and your lack of any location make your opinion any more valid, using such strawman arguments as that only make your position on this subject look ever more childish.

What it equates to is you have an opinion, but lack any evidence other than your own opinion, and I share an opposing position, or at least a position that does not take either side without evidence being put forth more solid than hearsay. Though I must admit, you focusing on my location rather than the evidence in this discussion makes you look more of a troll than myself.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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thehog said:
Also if that climb was any longer they would have much more time into the rest of the field. Minutes. It was scary the way they rode. I'm surprised they haven't been practising how to look tired. At least they should be pretending that they're over the limit.

Froome, Wiggins should have 3-4 minutes on Evans and Nibs by Tuesday and around 6-7 minutes on the rest. Come the 3rd week they'll be so far in front it won't be funny.

I cannot see how any other team can win the race from here. Its not possible when you're competing on unrestricted doping.

Rihs and Lelangue have a good program. Ask Floyd. Cadel should be fine. Nibali is on the Pellizotti special but with a lot more talent. Ferrari's arguable no.1 client right now. Liquigas have amazing riders, but the Giro was a sign they've perhaps taken it back a notch. I suspect many guys have followed suite. Maybe even less than last year. Which makes your outlook a grim possibility. Because it does look like Sky did the opposite. They took it up more than a few notches.

There is a still a race on, but unless someone takes major time in a breakaway, this race already looks like it's between 4 guys.

You are dead set right. 6km climb and in the final section Taaramae lost 19 seconds. That's the steepness there. Final section hit some savage gradients. Wiggins looked like he was pushing it hard, Cadel looked stronger. Just stronger. Froome...yeah I'd agree with the posting about him looking 'humble.' Wrong word. 'Embarassed' was the right descriptor. Definitely appeared to be the strongest. But I can also play that down to the last 200m being the steepest section. Cadel and Nibali aren't the greatest on the really steep stuff.
 

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