Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Ferminal]

I hope Yatesy doesn't use them all up, because with Froome and Porte I think they can sweep the podium next month.

 

[karlboss]

Last night I was thinking come on, no way, 4 guys out of the last 9, after leading the peloton all day. The saving grace being Weening was still there.

Today a review, who else was in that 9, Evans, VdB, Weening, Kiryenka, zubeldia, first 2 guenuine contenders, 3rd guy really?, 4th he's show enough previously, 5th super dom, good riders but 2 of 5 not quite the cream of the crop and the 5th quite a year no?, of the favourites only VdB and Evans had a real incentive to go into the red and keep up, for a possible podium or GC win. Also I see 2 calculations putting the average w/kg at 6.0, this is for the whole climb, which is really for EBH leading out Porte, it's not too suprising Vuelta Froome, Wiggins, and a healthy rogers could hang on to that. I don't know how much work the Sky boys did during the day, but i know the pace was slow.

My take, this looks dodgy, but on closer inspection it looks more like Sky came to race the dauphine, with their TdF riders very close to tour form, whereas others like perhaps Nibali are short of tour form and have no need to push into the red.

and my usual proviso, This does not suggest that I believe one way or the other that Sky is clean.

 

[Cancellator]

Funny, just came back from the IG Nocturne Crit where Ian Stannard lapped the field and easily took the victory. Those marginal gains!

(I'm not serious about this - winning downtown crits is obviously not Clinic material. However, there is something fishy about Wiggins & co, but it's still between "he's clearly doped to the gills" and "we didn't see any truly important races to judge him by". The Tour will tell all!)

 

[earlfoss]

Something is quite fishy with Wiggins at the very least. I'm curious to see how this plays out.

 

[thehog]

Something is quite fishy with Wiggins at the very least. I'm curious to see how this plays out.

From experiences once seen.... when riders/teams dope they get an air of superiority about them. That's the welcoming side effect. You start feeling like nothing can beat you.

I'm starting to see it in Team Sky.

Biggest tale tail sign is when a French journalist asks question in regards to doping. If you get a violent reaction.... = doping.

Let's see...

 

[VeloGirl]

Good to see SKY made it to their annual gynecologic exam this year. They must have taken the Schlecks appointment.

 

[hfer07]

Last night I was thinking come on, no way, 4 guys out of the last 9, after leading the peloton all day. The saving grace being Weening was still there.

Today a review, who else was in that 9, Evans, VdB, Weening, Kiryenka, zubeldia, first 2 guenuine contenders, 3rd guy really?, 4th he's show enough previously, 5th super dom, good riders but 2 of 5 not quite the cream of the crop and the 5th quite a year no?, of the favourites only VdB and Evans had a real incentive to go into the red and keep up, for a possible podium or GC win. Also I see 2 calculations putting the average w/kg at 6.0, this is for the whole climb, which is really for EBH leading out Porte, it's not too suprising Vuelta Froome, Wiggins, and a healthy rogers could hang on to that. I don't know how much work the Sky boys did during the day, but i know the pace was slow.

My take, this looks dodgy, but on closer inspection it looks more like Sky came to race the dauphine, with their TdF riders very close to tour form, whereas others like perhaps Nibali are short of tour form and have no need to push into the red.

and my usual proviso, This does not suggest that I believe one way or the other that Sky is clean.

let me get this straight: Froome was "ill" a couple months because of his "continuing blood decease"-and with no real race km in his legs-then Porte sets a pace he never performed during the Saxo days, & Rogers-whose career was almost tilting to the sunset, somehow stays with the main group-and last Wiggo-whose "powers" have reached a new level- all finished together out of 9 riders in a very demanding mountain stage......

but yet you dare to say the pace they set was slow..........
If that's your rational -could you explain how come nobody but Quintana wasn't able to breakaway from the group? Evans-as a GC contender tried & was pulled back effortlessly...... they could have caught Nairo had they have the will to do so- they didn't because they didn't have the need to....

 

[Fatclimber]

...
My take, this looks dodgy, but on closer inspection it looks more like Sky came to race the dauphine, with their TdF riders very close to tour form, whereas others like perhaps Nibali are short of tour form and have no need to push into the red.
...

It's good to look at this from all angles. Possibly this is confirmation Sky truly are the 'clean team'? It's all about the tour for them, said so at the inception of the all British team: "we will have a British TDF champion in ...". Of course some things have changed, but the big goal is still the same.

Maybe they really are here to race instead of pedal around old school doping style giving up blood for July with Vino & co. Tour contender or not, it's not too hard to put the smackdown on folks racing without all their blood.

I know it's a stretch, but really who's going to peak for the Dauphine? Maybe the likes of TVG or Jani, but they have work to do next month.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

on message

“It’s never about messages as much as people would love it to be,”

Wiggins said.

Oh, then UK Postal is the wrong name after all

 

[Euskaltel!]

It never ceases to amaze me that every time someone wins, on here it's doping! (although this is cycling...)

But then again, 4 out of 9 on a tough stage could be a talking point. But there are some pretty important mitigating factors:

It's the dauphine.
Sky bought talent.
Weening.
A lot of contenders aren't here etc.

Tbh, like most people here I think we'll see at the Tour. If Porte/Rogers/Froome /Wiggins are finishing together on all stages = we have trouble. I think we'll see good work from Porte before him dropping off, and Rogers dropping off somewhere past midway on the mountains.

However, I think we'll see a far more rounded Tour i.e. domestiques dropping off (weren't leopard trek supposed to dominate last years mountains?), events that can't be controlled etc.

We'll see.

 

[2008885]

After today's astonishing demonstration, I have a couple questions about this UK Postal team:

*Who is running "the UK Template"?
*Who is the "UK Ferrari"?
*Who is the "UK Carmichael"?

Do drop by again when you have the "Answers"

 

[Climeon]

let me get this straight: Froome was "ill" a couple months because of his "continuing blood decease"-and with no real race km in his legs-then Porte sets a pace he never performed during the Saxo days, & Rogers-whose career was almost tilting to the sunset, somehow stays with the main group-and last Wiggo-whose "powers" have reached a new level- all finished together out of 9 riders in a very demanding mountain stage......

but yet you dare to say the pace they set was slow..........
If that's your rational -could you explain how come nobody but Quintana wasn't able to breakaway from the group? Evans-as a GC contender tried & was pulled back effortlessly...... they could have caught Nairo had they have the will to do so- they didn't because they didn't have the need to....

He said that the pace before the climb was slow

 

[slowspoke]

I've just watched the stage and that was just stupid. Even the commentators were talking about Postal.

 

[maltiv]

If they weren't on the same team, then no one would have been surprised that Wiggins (two times top 5 in a GT), Rogers (3x world ITT champ, two GT top 10) and Porte (top 10 + best young rider in the giro) could keep up with Pieter Weening in the mountains...

So either Weening/GreenEdge are just as doped as Team Sky, or perhaps the competition is just kinda weak at this Dauphine?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Bradley Wiggins in ITTs as a pro:

2002:
4th, Circuit des Mines (24km)
3rd, Bohemia Tour (no details, but 50" off Cancellara's winning time around 47 mins)
2nd, Tour de l'Avenir (9km - won by Pozzato of all people)

2003:
21st, Paris-Nice prologue (4,8km)
18th, Paris-Nice full length (16,5km)
5th, Driedaagse De Panne (14km)
65th, Giro d'Italia (42km)
6th, Tour du Poitou Charentes (20km)
1st, Tour de l'Avenir (11km)

2004:
9th, Quatre Jours de Dunkerque (12km)
8th, Bayern Rundfahrt (16km)
15th, Tour de Suisse (26km)
- this looks like the start of the events we can reasonably take notice of.

2005:
14th, Critérium International (8,3km)
1st, Circuit de Lorraine (16km)
11th, Giro d'Italia prologue (1,1km)
34th, Giro d'Italia stage 8 (45km)
138th, Giro d'Italia stage 18 (34km)
2nd, Tour de l'Avenir (no length available) - was Wiggins really still eligible for this in '05?!
7th, World Championships (44,1km)

2006:
7th, Paris-Nice prologue (4,8km)
21st, Dauphiné prologue (4,1km)
16th, Tour de France prologue (7,1km)
28th, Tour de France stage 7 (52km)
55th, Tour de France stage 20 (57km)
21st, Eneco Tour (5,8km)

2007:
2nd, Circuit de la Sarthe (8,8km)
1st, Quatre Jours de Dunkerque (9km)
29th, Volta a Catalunya (17,1km) - note should be disregarded - mountain TT
1st, Dauphiné prologue (4,2km)
44th, Dauphiné (40,7km)
4th, Tour de France prologue (7,9km)
4th (after Vino's demotion), Tour de France stage 13 (54km)
1st, Tour du Poitou Charentes (20km)
10th, World Championships (44,9km)

2008:
2nd, Tour of California prologue (3,4km)
11th, Tour of California (24km)
5th, Tour de Romandie prologue (1,9km)
44th, Tour de Romandie (18,8km)
157th, Giro d'Italia stage 10 (39,4km)
99th, Giro d'Italia stage 16 (12,9km) * disregard - mountain TT
4th, Giro d'Italia stage 21 (28,5km)

2009:
2nd, Paris-Nice prologue (9,3km)
2nd, Critérium International (8,3km)
1st, Driedaagse de Panne (14,8km)
6th, Giro d'Italia stage 12 (60,6km)
2nd, Giro d'Italia stage 21 (15,5km)
3rd, Tour de France stage 1 (15,5km)
6th, Tour de France stage 18 (40,5km)
4th, Eneco Tour prologue (4,4km)
20th, World Championships (49,8km) * mechanical when placed far better than this
1st, Jayco Sun Tour (10km)

Obviously prior to this Wiggins' form had been related to the Olympic cycle, as a track rider, but it's clear from the high consistency that his ITT improved somewhat at the same time as his new climbing legs came into being. Obviously races like the Jayco Tour are ones he could well have been winning anyway, but previously his top results would be tempered with some mediocre ones; this was the first time it was all top results all the time.

2010:
2nd, Ruta del Sol (10km)
3rd, Vuelta a Murcía (22km)
11th, Vuelta al País Vasco (22km)
1st, Giro d'Italia stage 1 (8,4km)
67th, Giro d'Italia stage 16 (12,9km) * mountain TT - but should probably count these from this point in his career
7th, Giro d'Italia stage 21 (15km)
76th, Tour de France prologue (8,9km) - weather affected
9th, Tour de France stage 19 (52km) - weather affected

2011:
2nd, Paris-Nice (27km)
2nd, Critérium International (7km)
77th, Tour de Romandie prologue (2,9km)
4th, Tour de Romandie (20,1km)
1st, Bayern Rundfahrt (26km)
3rd, Dauphiné prologue (5,5km)
2nd, Dauphiné (42,5km)
3rd, Vuelta a España stage 10 (47km)
2nd, World Championships (46,4km)

Looking at this, the Vuelta ITT was not a disappointment at all, and Froome was just stupendous that day.

2012:
1st, Volta ao Algarve (25,8km)
2nd, Paris-Nice prologue (9,4km)
1st, Paris-Nice (9,5km) * mountain TT
11th, Tour de Romandie prologue (3,3km)
1st, Tour de Romandie (16,5km)
2nd, Dauphiné prologue (5,7km)
1st, Dauphiné (53km)

It's pretty clear that this year's results are noticeably better than before. Wiggins' ITT results have improved in the last four years, quite clearly, and this year most noticeably of all. And this is after he has improved his climbing chops and lost weight, whilst still being able to put down the same kind of power. Because he's always been a good TT rider, perhaps we've been prepared to accept it because he's just improved his climbing, but actually his TT has improved as well, just as I reconciled Kaisa Mäkäräinen's reinvention as a world beater with "well, she's always been quick on the skis, she's just improved her shooting". But her ski times were getting better and better as well, although having more to fight for was part of that of course.

 

[Stingray34]

It wasn't a pretty sight, but in the cold clear light of the next day, perhaps it wasn't all that it seemed. It is only the Dauphine, Weening, Kiriyenka, OK.

If this happens next month, then that's definitely a red flag.

They're still UKPS-Ballan for now though!

 

[maltiv]

It's pretty clear that this year's results are noticeably better than before. Wiggins' ITT results have improved in the last four years, quite clearly, and this year most noticeably of all. And this is after he has improved his climbing chops and lost weight, whilst still being able to put down the same kind of power. Because he's always been a good TT rider, perhaps we've been prepared to accept it because he's just improved his climbing, but actually his TT has improved as well, just as I reconciled Kaisa Mäkäräinen's reinvention as a world beater with "well, she's always been quick on the skis, she's just improved her shooting". But her ski times were getting better and better as well, although having more to fight for was part of that of course.

I don't think he's improved his ITT that much since last year, it's just that Cancellara and Tony Martin haven't been in form all year. I think they'll relegate Wiggins back into 3rd place in ITTs once they get healthy and find their form.

 

[spalco]

Although I like Team Sky, I have to admit they look very fishy. However you also have to consider regarding yesterday's stage, that they appear to take this race more seriously than most other teams, for whatever reason. Their preparation seems to be different from the others, will be interesting to see how it plays out. Maybe they turn out to be awful after two weeks into the Tour.

 

[Stravoski]

Wasn't this discussed somewhat before in this thread :

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=15100

 

[Catwhoorg]

Yes I'm sure any Murdoch news outlet will know what's good for it. Hail Sky the hero team showing those dodgy continentals what's what.

Here in Australia Murdoch makes up 70% of the press or some ridiculous percentage like that... all relentlessly on message.

Mirror group would have a huge reason to break a story like this.

 

[cineteq]

I don't think he's improved his ITT that much since last year, it's just that Cancellara and Tony Martin haven't been in form all year. I think they'll relegate Wiggins back into 3rd place in ITTs once they get healthy and find their form.

Forget Martin or Cancellara, what's wrong with this picture?

Dauphiné 2012 Stage 4 ITT
1 Bradley WIGGINS SKY PROCYCLING 01:03:12.340
3 Michael ROGERS SKY PROCYCLING 0:01:11
6 Christopher FROOME SKY PROCYCLING 0:01:33
8 Cadel EVANS BMC RACING TEAM 0:01:43
11 Jurgen VAN DEN BROECK LOTTO-BELISOL TEAM 0:02:12
24 Denis MENCHOV KATUSHA TEAM 0:03:12

You can only wonder as this poster did:

let me get this straight: Froome was "ill" a couple months because of his "continuing blood decease"-and with no real race km in his legs-then Porte sets a pace he never performed during the Saxo days, & Rogers-whose career was almost tilting to the sunset, somehow stays with the main group-and last Wiggo-whose "powers" have reached a new level- all finished together out of 9 riders in a very demanding mountain stage......

 

[taiwan]

Weening: can any Greenedge fans remember someone off that team touting him as 'someone to look out for'? I can half remember it...

The thing about that performance is that although they didn't drop Weening, they dropped Nibali and when have you seen him at a race grossly unfit? Also the GC contenders who were good - Evans and Van den Broeck - could not attack although they needed to on the hardest climb in the race. It wasn't nothing, still none of the riders were really showing something they hadn't before, despite Froome's sketchy jump last year.

The interesting thing will be how they manage the suspicion, being linked to a) a media organisation, and b) the British national team, whose reputation can't be tarnshed.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

OK, Sky, the gauntlet is laid down:

2008 Vuelta a Asturias, stage 1:
1 Ángel Vicioso Arcos (LA-MSS) 3'51'52"
2 Stefano Garzelli (Acqua e Sapone-Caffé Mokambo) +m.t.
3 Constantino Zaballa Gutiérrez (LA-MSS) +m.t.
4 Bruno Pires (LA-MSS) +m.t.
5 Xavier Tondó Volpini (LA-MSS) +m.t.
6 David García da Peña (Karpin-Galicia) +1'20
7 Jesús del Nero Montes (Saunier Duval-Scott) +1'20
8 Juan José Cobo Acebo (Saunier Duval-Scott) +1'20
9 Walter Pedraza Morales (Tinkoff Credit Systems) +1'20
10 Francesco Masciarelli (Acqua e Sapone-Caffé Mokambo) +1'20

Vuelta a Asturias 2008 Stage 4:
1 Tomasz Marczynski (Ceramica Flaminia-Bossini Docce) 4'49'41
2 David de la Fuente Rasilla (Saunier Duval-Scott) +43
3 Gonzalo Rabuñal Rios (Karpin-Galicia) +45
4 Nikita Eskov (Tinkoff Credit Systems) +50
5 Jonathan Castroviejo Nicolas (Orbea) +1'20
6 Koldo Gil Pérez (Liberty Seguros) +1'27
7 Ángel Vicioso Arcos (LA-MSS) +1'40
8 Xavier Tondó Volpini (LA-MSS) +2'11
9 Bruno Pires (LA-MSS) +2'39
10 José Azevedo (Sport Lisboa e Benfica-Lagos Sports) +2'39

(yes, that is Ángel Vicioso comprehensively outclimbing Xavi Tondó, Ace, Garzelli, Mosquera, Cobo etc)

Vuelta a Asturias 2008, General Classification
1 Ángel Vicioso Arcos (LA-MSS) 19'52'27
2 Xavier Tondó Volpini (LA-MSS) +1'06
3 Bruno Pires (LA-MSS) +1'42
4 Koldo Gil Pérez (Liberty Seguros) +1'55
5 Tomasz Marczynski (Ceramica Flaminia-Bossini Docce) +2'16
6 Gonzalo Rabuñal Rios (Karpin-Galicia) +2'23
7 Nikita Eskov (Tinkoff Credit Systems) +2'26
8 Constantino Zaballa Gutiérrez (LA-MSS) +3'05
9 José Azevedo (Sport Lisboa e Benfica-Lagos Sports) +3'18
10 Jaume Rovira Pous (Extremadura-Spiuk) +4'10

Then, one week later

GP Paredes Rota dos Movéis 2008, Stage 3
1 Constantino Zaballa Gutiérrez (LA-MSS) 3'25'54
2 Ángel Vicioso Arcos (LA-MSS) +m.t.
3 Tiago Machado (Madeinox-Boavista) +9
4 Adrián Palomares Villaplana (Contentpolis-Murcía) +12
5 Pedro Cardoso (LA-MSS) +14
6 David Bernabéu Armengol (Barbot-Siper) +14
7 Massimo Codol (Acqua e Sapone-Caffé Mokambo) +19
8 Alexis Rodríguez Hernández (Fercase-Rota dos Movéis) +19
9 Koldo Gil Pérez (Liberty Seguros) +19
10 Eladio Jiménez Sánchez (Fercase-Rota dos Movéis) +22

GP Paredes Rota dos Movéis 2008, Stage 4
1 Pedro Cardoso (LA-MSS) 3'31'31
2 Ricardo Mestre (Palmeiras Resort-Tavira) +17
3 Eladio Jiménez Sánchez (Fercase-Rota dos Movéis) +22
4 Antonio D'Aniello (Ceramica Flaminia-Bossini Docce) +38
5 Dainius Kairelis (Ceramica Flaminia-Bossini Docce) +38
6 Rui Costa (Sport Lisboa e Benfica-Lagos Sports) +38
7 Constantino Zaballa Gutiérrez (LA-MSS) +38
8 Koldo Gil Pérez (Liberty Seguros) +38
9 Ángel Vicioso Arcos (LA-MSS) +38
10 Enrique Salgueiro Alfonso (Extremadura-Spiuk) +46

GP Paredes Rota dos Movéis 2008, General Classification
1 Pedro Cardoso (LA-MSS) 15'10'51
2 Constantino Zaballa Gutiérrez (LA-MSS) +21
3 Ángel Vicioso Arcos (LA-MSS) +22
4 Ricardo Mestre (Palmeiras Resort-Tavira) +34
5 Koldo Gil Pérez (Liberty Seguros) +53
6 Alexis Rodríguez Sánchez (Fercase-Rota dos Movéis) +1'05
7 Massimo Codol (Acqua e Sapone-Caffé Mokambo) +1'05
8 David Bernabéu Armengol (Barbot-Siper) +1'15
9 Nuno Ribeiro (Liberty Seguros) +1'19
10 Enrique Salgueiro Alfonso (Extremadura-Spiuk) +1'21

 

[Winterfold]

Libertine - you know very well it is perfectly possible to improve your TT through position and skillz without needing to increase power

 

[hrotha]

Libertine - you know very well it is perfectly possible to improve your TT through position and skillz without needing to increase power

A track and prologue specialist who by 2007 was already a pretty reliable time-trialer in longer ITTs, further improving his position? Losing tons of weight but still somehow time-trialing better than ever? Hmm.