Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[zigmeister]

Maybe the Pinarello Dogmas of Sky all have motors on the BBs?


Ridiculous 5 team mates on a HC climb for 50% of it are all at the front, and 3 still remained at the top. No other team could do that.

 

[thehog]

Maybe the Pinarello Dogmas of Sky all have motors on the BBs?


Ridiculous 5 team mates on a HC climb for 50% of it are all at the front, and 3 still remained at the top. No other team could do that.

...und not a Euro in sight. All Australian and British.

Hmmmm.

 

[Gloin22]

...und not a Euro in sight. All Australian and British.

Hmmmm.

Weening. Kiryenka. Jurgen Van Der Broeck. Zubeldia were still there though, they didnt have to work with Sky there.

 

[Stravoski]

This is a quote from Bradley Wiggins in 2009.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/sport/the-big-interview-bradley-wiggins-6789854.html

"Compared to the 2007 Tour, the weight loss means I'm carrying the equivalent of six bags of sugar less up a mountain. Shedding that weight is all that I can do to give myself the best chance on the climbs other than taking drugs and I'm not going to do that."

 

[thehog]

Weening. Kiryenka. Jurgen Van Der Broeck. Zubeldia were still there though, they didnt have to work with Sky there.

No I meant in Team Sky alone.

 

[sniper]

Can you elaborate on this for us??

Riis elaborated on this in some detail in 1996.
Indurain provided additional empirical evidence in 1991-1995.
other cases in point are Ullrich and to a lesser extent armstrong. (the latter at least came out of his saddle on the climbs.)
all relatively big guys who'd probably be crap in the mountains in a clean peloton.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Break what?

No one will report anything until there is a positive test, and if there was one, I guarantee the Times would cover it.

I have little doubt that there has been some serious digging into British cycling by Mirror group and others. enough that if there was any evidence of dirt it would be aired.

UKADA intelligence is good enough to nab plenty of other Olympic hopefuls, and even a National B cyclist (Dan Staite), again if there was any shred of evidence they would be digging and testing Sky and BC like there was no tomorrow.

Outside of the clinic cynics, there really is nothing to suggest anything but durn hard focused training is behind the improvements. Compare Wiggo's training schedule in 2009-2010 to what he does now.

The team bought talent trained it to the max, and runs on a very simple plan. Tempo up the climbs and shred the other weaker teams, and so limit Brad's losses to the best climbers. Then recoup with interest in the ITT.

The tour will show which domestiques are weaker than the others as they will get used up and dropped on certain days.

 

[Catwhoorg]

This is just what i was thinking yesterday. Not to the same depth but yeah that we are ignoring his tts.

That the mountain training theory does not cover the improvement in tts. I mean to beat T mart by 30 seconds like that was ultra impressive.

I suspect that Tony isn't back to his best after the crash. That cannot be overlooked in this particular case. It will be a whole lot closer at the Olympics. Plus Canc is looking a whole lot better, but he has room for further recovery.

 

[thehog]

Riis elaborated on this in some detail in 1996.
Indurain provided additional empirical evidence in 1991-1995.
other cases in point are Ullrich and to a lesser extent armstrong. (the latter at least came out of his saddle on the climbs.)
all relatively big guys who'd probably be crap in the mountains in a clean peloton.

Columbian cyclist Luis Herrera once remarked:"When I saw riders with fat asses climbing cols like airplanes [at the Tour de France], I understood what was happening."

 

[sniper]

Columbian cyclist Luis Herrera once remarked:"When I saw riders with fat asses climbing cols like airplanes [at the Tour de France], I understood what was happening."

I assume that big guys generally have a higher nett gain from EPO in terms of stamina than smaller guys.
i.e. everything else bing equal, then the bigger you are, the more profit blood doping will bring you.
(though of course you can't be too big/weighty either)

 

[Winterfold]

Funny, those are the same theories about Armstrong: improved position, higher cadence, lost weight but kept the power, etc., etc.

All of which we know is nonsense.

In which case I look forward to the bit where he starts going uphill as fast as Lance.

<cue tumbleweed>

 

[Stravoski]

I have little doubt that there has been some serious digging into British cycling by Mirror group and others. enough that if there was any evidence of dirt it would be aired.

Yes that is a good point. Remember John Higgins. World number one snooker player nabbed in a sting by The News Of The World.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

This is a quote from Bradley Wiggins in 2009.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/sport/the-big-interview-bradley-wiggins-6789854.html

Bradley's not an idiot, and will know that there are other ways. Blood doping doesn't involve drugs, of course.

I'm not saying that he's doing that, I'm saying that the quote isn't quite accurate. It's not quite as disingenuous as Armstrong's "never tested positive" mantra.

 

[Marco Pantani]

I have little doubt that there has been some serious digging into British cycling by Mirror group and others. enough that if there was any evidence of dirt it would be aired.

UKADA intelligence is good enough to nab plenty of other Olympic hopefuls, and even a National B cyclist (Dan Staite), again if there was any shred of evidence they would be digging and testing Sky and BC like there was no tomorrow.

Outside of the clinic cynics, there really is nothing to suggest anything but durn hard focused training is behind the improvements. Compare Wiggo's training schedule in 2009-2010 to what he does now.

The team bought talent trained it to the max, and runs on a very simple plan. Tempo up the climbs and shred the other weaker teams, and so limit Brad's losses to the best climbers. Then recoup with interest in the ITT.

The tour will show which domestiques are weaker than the others as they will get used up and dropped on certain days.

Anti Doping Agencies are useless. They got nothing.....no money, no power, no rights, no support, no goals.
Pretending there is a serious fight against doping, I guess thats why they are existing.

Latest example was the Erfurt scandal in Germany with Kittel involved.

On the other hand you've got the money the power, the support and the real goals. Surely Wiggo and his boys are on a nice programme leading to the Tour and the Olympics.

 

[Marco Pantani]

Nothing new here boys. Just follow the money. Whose got it and who spends it? I'd guess the Murdock team wins both categories. Being partial to conspiracy theories myself I find it interesting that the dream team backed by Murdock billions finds itself with a VERY Wiggo friendly race course for the Tour... AND in the same the same year that the Olympics are on home turf..

Follow the Money.

you have a point

 

[Polish]

Next question is : where will Wiggins and the Sky-is-the-limit spend the next 3 weeks ? In the Alps ? Or more probably in Teneriffe ?

Sleeping in a tent maybe. Reconn the tough stages one more time. Making sure all the details on equipment are fine tuned. Meeting with team and mgmt to review battle plan. Staying healthy. Double checking and triple checking.

And focus focus focus. 24/7 up until the Big Dance begins. The Mental Part is sooo important. Visualization techniques. Focus focus.

If all goes well Wiggins will be the most tested rider at the Tour. And I hope he mentions that in a post stage interview. Kaboom. Can't wait for the Tour to begin. Vive le Tour!

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Riis elaborated on this in some detail in 1996.
Indurain provided additional empirical evidence in 1991-1995.
other cases in point are Ullrich and to a lesser extent armstrong. (the latter at least came out of his saddle on the climbs.)
all relatively big guys who'd probably be crap in the mountains in a clean peloton.

Columbian cyclist Luis Herrera once remarked:"When I saw riders with fat asses climbing cols like airplanes [at the Tour de France], I understood what was happening."

What's your point? Wiggo looks like he was just liberated from Buchenwald.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

On the subject:

Also, an old Finnish study (if you can find it) found that athletes with higher Vo2 maxes benefitted less from EPO use than those who started with lower Vo2 maxes. The more talented athlete were (generally) benefitting less. Another observation of that study was that ectomorphic body types showed less increase than mesomorphic types. So, the variables on the exact advantage are endless and vary person to person (A BIG counterpoint to the argument that just letting everyone dope is fair). I read this study in about 1995 and haven't seen it anywhere since, so i cant find a link, sorry...

 

[sniper]

What's your point? Wiggo looks like he was just liberated from Buchenwald.

true. he's as skinny as a Kenyan runner.
the fat asses was just a metaphor. I mean, wiggo is 1.90 tall, so he's a particularly tall guy, and not the type of athlete you'd naturally favor in the mountains.

I'm speculating here, but might the key issue be the length of your veins? the longer your veins (viz. the more blood you're carrying and circulating), the more benefit you'll have from blood preparation?

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

I'd guess it's more about muscularity than height, but what the hell do I know?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I'd guess it's more about muscularity than height, but what the hell do I know?

And yet, despite dieting to the point of anorexia, he's still noticeably larger than some competitors (it's not quite like the finishing line in Le-Grand-Bornand in 2009 where Armstrong looked like he could swallow Nibali in one mouthful). But what's incredible is that despite that, he has suffered no reduction in the power he's able to put out and his health has been fine. His ITT has even improved since the days when he was a pure ITT guy. Dieting your way down to be more competitive in the mountains makes sense and I can buy it as a cause for his improved mountain performance (although having known dodgy guys like Rogers and highly suspicious guys like Froome surrounding him doesn't help), but you would expect it to have some kind of effect on his TTing, and improving it is not the effect you would expect. Especially given in those days he would rest up and come in with the autobus several days in order to be competitive in the ITT, and do well but often not in 1st or 2nd, which has been almost uniformly his result this year when he's been having to work hard each day.

People holding on to the 'Wiggins struggles on long climbs and steep climbs' seem to be clutching at straws though; while we haven't seen him on any long climbs this year, thanks mainly to awful course design in this Dauphiné, he didn't seem to suffer on the longer climbs in the Vuelta last year; as for steep climbs, the Tour doesn't have anything like Anglirú and he was 3rd on Montée Laurent Jalabert earlier this year. It seems that absolutely everything has fallen into place for Wiggins this year; he's been able to discover hitherto unknown skills (short hills), resurrect long forgotten ones (bursts of acceleration into sprints), and still have time to improve both his climbing AND his TTing.

It mightn't be so suspicious if it hadn't happened to a whole bunch of his teammates too.

 

[Caruut]

One of the things that make me worry about Sky is the closeness of the team and the governing body. British Cycling is heavily invested and involved in the project, and as such have a greater than usual (and the usual is pretty great too) vested interest in making sure that riders don't test positive.

 

[thehog]

One of the things that make me worry about Sky is the closeness of the team and the governing body. British Cycling is heavily invested and involved in the project, and as such have a greater than usual (and the usual is pretty great too) vested interest in making sure that riders don't test positive.

I agree. None of them are going to test anything let alone have to worry about the Bio-passport.

I'm reserving all judgement until July 30th.

 

[Escarabajo]

Team Sky is just physiologically better than the rest of the guys out there.

Statistically umprobable.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

I've been suspicious of sky since Brailsford's reaction to the Landis allegations. He seemed to think that the appropriate action was to just ask Barry if it was true.

Which is not to say that I have decided any one rider is or isn't doping, just that I don't believe sky are truly making every effort to minimize doping.

@Caruut, Another parallel with USPS.