Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[The Hitch]

I agree. None of them are going to test anything let alone have to worry about the Bio-passport.

I'm reserving all judgement until July 30th.

What happens on July 30th?

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

I'd guess it's more about muscularity than height, but what the hell do I know?

The allometric scalping of VO2max has something to do with differences in the branching of the blood vessels between people of different sizes. So, tall and skinny might be similar to short and skinny in this regard.

I find the whole idea that EPO/blood doping might provider less benefit to more talented riders quite intriguing. It seems to imply that, once the oxygen delivery is optimized, there is some other physiological limit that prevents athletes with high VO2max from getting much added benefit from doping. The negative correlation between VO2max and cycling efficiency also hints at the same, although it might be purely due to sample selection. But what do I know too?

 

[Bala Verde]

I've been suspicious of sky since Brailsford's reaction to the Landis allegations. He seemed to think that the appropriate action was to just ask Barry if it was true.

Which is not to say that I have decided any one rider is or isn't doping, just that I don't believe sky are truly making every effort to minimize doping.

@Caruut, Another parallel with USPS.

If they truly wanted to make an effort to minimize doping, they wouldn't have hired geert leinders, the belgian doctor who oversaw, 'steered' and 'corrected' rabobank riders who doped themselves, from what, 1996-2007? 2009?

 

[red_flanders]

The whole Sky thing just feels so utterly orchestrated to me. Shades of Spain's push for Olympic Gold in Barcelona, the machine has brought us UK Postal, scheduled to deliver the TdF and Olympic Gold in the year 2012, London.

It looks like, acts like, smells like a duck. It is a duck.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

In which case I look forward to the bit where he starts going uphill as fast as Lance.

<cue tumbleweed>

Yeah, because guys like Basso and Ullrich who couldn't go uphill as fast as Lance were obviously clean.

 

[Cal_Joe]

What happens on July 30th?

That is the date Contador files papers to get out of Saxo Bank and sign with Sky.

Best insider info ever.

You read it here first.

 

[Ferminal]

That is the date Contador files papers to get out of Saxo Bank and sign with Sky.

Best insider info ever.

You read it here first.

It's a Monday.

 

[Cal_Joe]

It's a Monday.

Oh crap. My apologies. Meant to mention Tuesday somewhere in my post. Or some date in September.

 

[DirtyWorks]

The whole Sky thing just feels so utterly orchestrated to me. Shades of Spain's push for Olympic Gold in Barcelona, the machine has brought us UK Postal, scheduled to deliver the TdF and Olympic Gold in the year 2012, London.

It looks like, acts like, smells like a duck. It is a duck.

Not only does Sky have an identified doping doctor, Sean Yates was a part of the corroborated Tailwind doping system.

I guess I'm not the only one that thinks the UCI has already picked their winner for at least the 2012 TdF.

http://disposablewebpage.com/turn?page=HRlrEArzMj This propaganda is from VeloNews for as long as it lasts.

 

[sartoris]

Sleeping in a tent maybe. Reconn the tough stages one more time. Making sure all the details on equipment are fine tuned. Meeting with team and mgmt to review battle plan. Staying healthy. Double checking and triple checking.

And focus focus focus. 24/7 up until the Big Dance begins. The Mental Part is sooo important. Visualization techniques. Focus focus.

If all goes well Wiggins will be the most tested rider at the Tour. And I hope he mentions that in a post stage interview. Kaboom. Can't wait for the Tour to begin. Vive le Tour!

Is this irony?

 

[pot belge]

wiggans

I have little doubt that there has been some serious digging into British cycling by Mirror group and others. enough that if there was any evidence of dirt it would be aired.

UKADA intelligence is good enough to nab plenty of other Olympic hopefuls, and even a National B cyclist (Dan Staite), again if there was any shred of evidence they would be digging and testing Sky and BC like there was no tomorrow.

Outside of the clinic cynics, there really is nothing to suggest anything but durn hard focused training is behind the improvements. Compare Wiggo's training schedule in 2009-2010 to what he does now.

The team bought talent trained it to the max, and runs on a very simple plan. Tempo up the climbs and shred the other weaker teams, and so limit Brad's losses to the best climbers. Then recoup with interest in the ITT.

The tour will show which domestiques are weaker than the others as they will get used up and dropped on certain days.

This reminds me of the "names for dope and doping" thread - http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=17351

 

[Winterfold]

Yeah, because guys like Basso and Ullrich who couldn't go uphill as fast as Lance were obviously clean.

Wtf?

Wiggo and Sky aren't going uphill anything like as fast as them either. Especially not Giro 2006 Basso LOL.

Don't treat me like a moron fanboy, the only person that gets a free pass is Boardman.

Wiggins is just more plausible than others in recent history. Or is that slightly less implausible ?

 

[bobbins]

Wtf?

Wiggo and Sky aren't going uphill anything like as fast as them either. Especially not Giro 2006 Basso LOL.

Don't treat me like a moron fanboy, the only person that gets a free pass is Boardman.

Wiggins is just more plausible than others in recent history. Or is that slightly less implausible ?

Why? Why? Why?

 

[Lanark]

Wtf?

Wiggo and Sky aren't going uphill anything like as fast as them either. Especially not Giro 2006 Basso LOL.

Don't treat me like a moron fanboy, the only person that gets a free pass is Boardman.

Wiggins is just more plausible than others in recent history. Or is that slightly less implausible ?

Depends at what angle of plausability you're looking at. If you look at Wiggins his curve in his results, it's highly implausable. A complete and absolute nobody in GC's, to suddenly one of the main contenders in 2009. His teammate Froome is the only rider who has a similair unlikely curve.

What other forms of plausability are there? His tests and blood results? He hasn't tested positive, but that's hardly meaningfull. We know very little of his bloodworks, and just as little or even less of his competitors. It's hard to say how plausable he is on that front. There aren't any concrete rumours about him being a charger, but the same can be said for dozens of riders.

The last, and least reliable, way to gauge his plausability is to look at what he and his team say in the press. Surely he is very plausable if you look at it from that angle, but how much weight should you give to just talk?

 

[cineteq]

Beyond Logic

Forgive me if this has been answered.
Everybody can understand why Wiggins losing weight can improve his climbing, but how can it improve his TTing and be at par or better with power machines like Martin and Cancellara?

 

[thehog]

What happens on July 30th?

It's the end of the Tour and Olympic road race. A time to reflect on everything that unfolded. That's when we can make e true assessment.

 

[nevada]

Forgive me if this has been answered.
Everybody can understand why Wiggins losing weight can improve his climbing, but how can it improve his TTing and be at par or better with power machines like Martin and Cancellara?

Theyve all come down to his level - the peloton is cleaner and thats why the brits can now compete. It may happen in football oneday too.

 

[pot belge]

Theyve all come down to his level - the peloton is cleaner and thats why the brits can now compete. It may happen in football oneday too.

If only that were true!

 

[The Hitch]

Wiggins in his "Sky is the limit" Eurosport half an hour show - "my time trialing has not suffered from all the work we did in the mountains"

to consider when thinking about the fact that he is currently the worlds best tter.

 

[Ripper]

Wtf?

Wiggo and Sky aren't going uphill anything like as fast as them either. Especially not Giro 2006 Basso LOL.

Don't treat me like a moron fanboy, the only person that gets a free pass is Boardman.

Wiggins is just more plausible than others in recent history. Or is that slightly less implausible ?

Emphasis on slightly (and given the comparisons, that is not really saying much is it?).

It's not just Wiggo, it is the rest of the TdF Sky Team.

Again worth pointing out - lots of suspicion, but many are waiting for the big show in July before rendering a 'final verdict'. If Sky ride tempo and shred folks on the climbs and Wiggo can still put serious time in the TTs, then it will require one to be on a serious drug cocktail to believe it is all due to focus, better training, discipline, and all of that other malarkey.

 

[Ripper]

Theyve all come down to his level - the peloton is cleaner and thats why the brits can now compete. It may happen in football oneday too.

Sarcasm ... ?

 

[cineteq]

Theyve all come down to his level - the peloton is cleaner and thats why the brits can now compete. It may happen in football oneday too.

Never mind guys

 

[hiero2]

I dont think its really that much of a surprise. As has already been pointed out in other threads, this is only the Dauphine and its quite clear many of the favourites either dont have the from yet or are taking it easy. If this type of domination continues for three weeks of the tour, then ok, raises some suspicions.

As for Wiggo having three teammates with him up the climb, Sky has loads of money and went out and signed quality riders who can set hard tempo on the climbs to suit Wiggo's style. Rogers, Porte and Froome aren't some chumps who cant climb, they've shown this type of ability before. Sky have had this group of riders racing and training together all year so its no surprise they are all coming into form at the same time ready for the July.
. . .

Libertine immediately questioned your comment about Froome, but I have to agree. Sky has purchased some riders who have consistently shown upper echelon quality.

Wiggins says the swimming coach has them training differently. Ok - I have seen, in my lifetime, evidence that there might be something to this. In junior high, I swam. In my mid-30's I raced bicycles. I don't think training has gone through some semi-secret development evolution that has made buckets of performance difference. But I CAN see a couple of percentage points made possible by a change in training.

For instance - in my 20's I did the transcendental meditation bit. Later, when I was racing, and learned to apply tm while I was doing a tt, my performances significantly improved, much to the chagrin of one particular junior who kept thinking he should be able to catch the "old man". Also, when I was racing (pre-EPO days), triathlons had become big. We constantly got hit by new road racers coming over from triathlons who were intensely, insanely, strong. What the hell did they do differently? Train.

What else could it have been, but training differences? Were they all somehow self-selected by doing well in triathlons, to be monster when applying that capacity to road races? Maybe, somewhat, but having watched these people, I don't think that was all the answer. Maybe all these tri-guys (and gals) were more willing than the guys I raced against to use steroids (unlike EPO, steroids were available then)? Again, that answer just doesn't do it for me. I don't think so.

Which brings me back to - training. There must have been something different somewhere in how they prepared, either mentally or physically, or both. Something that allowed a higher peak performance, and a longer peak period.

But now I am really gonna bring down the house. Putting aside for a minute the connection of Lance to doping, part of what made him believable was his training. Don't get me wrong, I believe Lance doped. There is no question in my mind about it. But you don't take a donkey to the Kentucky Derby and win by doping. Lance came from the tri-world. He was renowned for training differently than most cyclists. He trained during the off season. He planned his season around the Tour. He studied the stages better than other cyclists. All of which indicate to me that he also has a mental toughness that is hard to find, even for top level athletes. You can train the mentality, too.

Just because Lance doped, does not mean that he wasn't doing something else right - or that riders today can't learn something from his training behavior.

So Wiggo is doing high-altitude training in January. Hey, Bob Roll had to bum a tent and live on peanut butter just to race in April! Now the sport has enough money Wiggins and the team can afford to go live and train where they can get high-altitude climbs in January.

So, there are a couple of instances where I have seen real progress in training methods. Wiggins has also been outspokenly anti-doping. You can be suspicious. I am. But it could be true - and at least at the moment I am inclined to give Wiggo the benefit of the doubt.

 

[hiero2]

I responded to this thread because of this. LMAO - you have not seen the last of this photo! Can you say perfection? LOL forever!

 

[taiwan]

Sky has purchased some riders who have consistently shown upper echelon quality.

Rogers OK if you account for illness. Froome has been flagged already, Porte has not been climbing well since his 2010 Giro.

Wiggins says the swimming coach has them training differently. Ok - I have seen, in my lifetime, evidence that there might be something to this. In junior high, I swam. In my mid-30's I raced bicycles. I don't think training has gone through some semi-secret development evolution that has made buckets of performance difference. But I CAN see a couple of percentage points made possible by a change in training.

For instance - in my 20's I did the transcendental meditation bit. Later, when I was racing, and learned to apply tm while I was doing a tt, my performances significantly improved, much to the chagrin of one particular junior who kept thinking he should be able to catch the "old man". Also, when I was racing (pre-EPO days), triathlons had become big. We constantly got hit by new road racers coming over from triathlons who were intensely, insanely, strong. What the hell did they do differently? Train.

What else could it have been, but training differences? Were they all somehow self-selected by doing well in triathlons, to be monster when applying that capacity to road races? Maybe, somewhat, but having watched these people, I don't think that was all the answer. Maybe all these tri-guys (and gals) were more willing than the guys I raced against to use steroids (unlike EPO, steroids were available then)? Again, that answer just doesn't do it for me. I don't think so.

Which brings me back to - training. There must have been something different somewhere in how they prepared, either mentally or physically, or both. Something that allowed a higher peak performance, and a longer peak period.

But now I am really gonna bring down the house. Putting aside for a minute the connection of Lance to doping, part of what made him believable was his training. Don't get me wrong, I believe Lance doped. There is no question in my mind about it. But you don't take a donkey to the Kentucky Derby and win by doping. Lance came from the tri-world. He was renowned for training differently than most cyclists. He trained during the off season. He planned his season around the Tour. He studied the stages better than other cyclists. All of which indicate to me that he also has a mental toughness that is hard to find, even for top level athletes. You can train the mentality, too.

Just because Lance doped, does not mean that he wasn't doing something else right - or that riders today can't learn something from his training behavior.

So Wiggo is doing high-altitude training in January. Hey, Bob Roll had to bum a tent and live on peanut butter just to race in April! Now the sport has enough money Wiggins and the team can afford to go live and train where they can get high-altitude climbs in January.

So, there are a couple of instances where I have seen real progress in training methods. Wiggins has also been outspokenly anti-doping. You can be suspicious. I am. But it could be true - and at least at the moment I am inclined to give Wiggo the benefit of the doubt.

Someone should suggest this "training" concept to the rest of the pros. It sounds revolutionary.