Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Franklin]

Can you name some teams which would not be suspicious?

There are several issues here:

1. BMC not only has an inky black history, they never changed the management or structure.
2. Their head doctor is Max Testa (known from LA confidential...)
3. In 2011 a soigneur (ex pro Vansevenant) was caught with packages of doping (he was actually conned and bought amino acids).

There are other teams that are suspicious, but BMC ranks among the most blatantly dirty teams.

 

[Benotti69]

Can you name some teams which would not be suspicious?

No. I doubt there is one team in pro cycling where at least some riders are doping.

And that is a sad state of affairs.

Look at Sky, where Wiggins and G Thomas have been singing the praises of Armstrong in recent times.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

No. I doubt there is one team in pro cycling where at least some riders are doping.

And that is a sad state of affairs.

True but then it is a moot point to say so and so was on such as team ergo he is suspicious. I think you need to tie someone to something more firm then that otherwise it just becomes a game of 6 degrees of separation.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Nope, that's the problem.

All teams are dirty, but some teams are more dirty than others.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

There are several issues here:

1. BMC not only has an inky black history, they never changed the management or structure.
2. Their head doctor is Max Testa (known from LA confidential...)
3. In 2011 a soigneur (ex pro Vansevenant) was caught with packages of doping (he was actually conned and bought amino acids).

There are other teams that are suspicious, but BMC ranks among the most blatantly dirty teams.

I would certainly be interested to know if Gilbert did indeed get a warning from the UCI which would point to doping activity.

 

[sittingbison]

We have to be careful to get the logic sequences right, or be hoisted on petards by fanboys. What is known, and guilt by association.

For example, Leinders and Sky. It is known Leinders was a doping doctor,and given Sky's modus operandi and Wiggo statements why would they hire him. Guilt by association? They could hire any other doctor in the world.

Evans and BMC? It is known BMC had a murky history. But Evans is not at liberty to join a clean team, because they are all to some extent murky. He needs to join a wealthy team with solid teamwork, especially after Lotto. Time is running out, he is getting older. BMC is a perfect fit. Guilt by association? Not the same as Leinders, because we also know not all riders are dopers, even if others within the team are or even if the team is systematic. Bassons and Moncoutie are the prime examples.

Has Evans performance improved at BMC? Not one iota. He is remarkably consistent throughout his career, like a normal person. He improves each year, plateaus at 30 for a few years, then begins a gradual decline that will become steep shortly, or he retires. He gets two seconds, a crash year, wins worlds through guile, wins Tour through bloody mindedness and Contador imploding, that's it, he is done.

Sure ask questions, but don't make absolute judgements unless there is some proof of some kind, circumstantial or otherwise. In Evans case there is none. Look at a comparison with Wiggo this year. Not a single similarity of suspicious performance. No ridiculous team, no secret training, no superhuman season endurance, no "marginal gains" rubbish to deflect attention, no rollers for warming down, no new skill sets, no superdomestique, no being within 10 seconds of the lead from day 1 and defending for two weeks, no killing the field in ITT. Nothing! Nothing to indicate a team program, he did it almost totally through his own efforts. So no, BMC has not helped him by being a doper team.

 

[Franklin]

For example, Leinders and Sky. It is known Leinders was a doping doctor,and given Sky's modus operandi and Wiggo statements why would they hire him. Guilt by association? They could hire any other doctor in the world.

Evans and BMC? It is known BMC had a murky history. But Evans is not at liberty to join a clean team, because they are all to some extent murky.

You Are too funny. BMC a murky history is the understatement of the year.

Also, Wiggo might have had little to say in his doctor, but Evans sure as well made the choice.

Your denial is hilarious. Your understating BMC's modus operandi is either sadly lacking in knowledge or wilfully misleading.

Anything we rightly throw at Sky can and should be thrown even harder at BMC.

 

[luckyboy]

All teams are dirty, but some teams are more dirty than others.

Some teams are dirty, some have dirty riders.

Saying dirty teams imply that all DSs and management structures are either encouraging doping (implicitly or blatantly) or turning a blind eye to doping within the team.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Some teams are dirty, some have dirty riders.

Fair point (Besides I was just playing on Animal Farm).

 

[OldManThyme]

Depens on what you eman by that, there's more than just the fact that he worked for Rabobank, the manager who got fired, Theo de Rooy, came straight out and said that Leinder helped run the Rabobank doping program.


I actually agree with you here, i just draw a rather different conclusion. A team doc is just a tool, so why do you as a "clean" team management get the exact tool you need to run a doping program? For this reason I consider hiring a dirty doc more incriminating than hiring a dirty rider, though Team Sky certainly have riders with suspicious pasts as well.

I'm, as i said, not pro sky. But you can't go round just showing prejudice.

"Leinders’s role at Rabobank came under scrutiny earlier this year when the team’s former manager Theo De Rooy told a Dutch newspaper, Vokskrant: “Management never encouraged doping. If there was, then it was a deliberate decision of the medical staff. But when it comes to medical care, you must find the line between doping and medical aid. Riders’ health, in the short or long term, is paramount.”[Cycle SPort]

Management are protecting their necks. I don't believe this is the whole truth if even part truth. And he's never been officially investigated?
And you think injecting EPO is rocket science and no other doctor could do it? I still say a "team" doc is not a liability. Just a tool. Sky could be doping. But who their doc is, is not proof. Move on.

 

[OldManThyme]

del Moral, Ferarri, Fuentes. All doctors. Not riders. Remove them and their ilk and things clean up REAL quick. Capiche?

Again. I agree with life bans on any "independant" doping docs like Ferarri.
But a "team" doc is not the enabler. THe managment is. Life ban for the management. 2 or 4 year ban for a team doc. ANY doc can dope a rider. It's not rocket science.

 

[OldManThyme]

Clearly you are absolutely clueless on Leinders.
He was part of the management team: De Rooij, Breukink, Leinders.
This adressed 90% of your handwaving.

My use of the term "management" is upper managment. Brailsford is the manger. A team doc is just a doctor employed to do a job set by the manger.

 

[OldManThyme]

Awwww... fairytales again
Linford ffing Christie is just one of many examples of Brittish tolerance.
Want a more recent hero? Christine Ohuruogu.
Or another role model? Dwain Chambers.
Lewis Francis is a nice example of BOA morals.
And nobody forced the selection of David Millar at the Olympics.

You're obviously not british. The general british public i know speak poorly of Dwain and Millar. Cyclists, though, are divided on millar since he seems very credible now, despite his past. Christie was a hero, but i think people know there might be questions about sprinter from that time. Don't know about Ohuruogo.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

We have to be careful to get the logic sequences right, or be hoisted on petards by fanboys.

There then follows a long explanation by an Australian about why Evans is fine.

I agree, but the bizzare, unnecessary, hypocritical opening line did make me chuckle.

 

[OldManThyme]

And someone who is guilty is going to say it, too.

So it's meaningless. And, because it's meaningless, it's not a real answer to why they've suddenly improved since winter 2010-2011 (i.e. since the hiring of Geert Leinders).

So, if we strip out those "explanations" - and the "we work hard" explanations, which are also meaningless - Sky's answer to the question, "Why are you riding so strongly?" is...

...silence.

you don't need to answer the meaningless

 

[OldManThyme]

True but then it is a moot point to say so and so was on such as team ergo he is suspicious. I think you need to tie someone to something more firm then that otherwise it just becomes a game of 6 degrees of separation.

Exactly so....

 

[OldManThyme]

........
For example, Leinders and Sky. It is known Leinders was a doping doctor,and given Sky's modus operandi and Wiggo statements why would they hire him. Guilt by association? They could hire any other doctor in the world.

Really? How many career doctors from outside are going to risk their reputations coming in to cycling with cyclings very very poor reputation?
Are you for real?

And then of the cycling doctors (who by association, as you say, are nearly all tainted), which ones are less likely to bring suspicion and are not already attached under contract to a team for 2010 back in that year when Sky was starting up?

Logical and proven statements to prove "They could hire any other doctor in the world" please....

 

[hrotha]

Really? How many career doctors from outside are going to risk their reputations coming in to cycling with cyclings very very poor reputation?
Are you for real?

And then of the cycling doctors (who by association, as you say, are nearly all tainted), which ones are less likely to bring suspicion and are not already attached under contract to a team for 2010 back in that year when Sky was starting up?

Logical and proven statements to prove "They could hire any other doctor in the world" please....

Well they had team doctors for the whole 2010 season before they hired Leinders, so...

 

[OldManThyme]

No. I doubt there is one team in pro cycling where at least some riders are doping.

And that is a sad state of affairs.

Look at Sky, where Wiggins and G Thomas have been singing the praises of Armstrong in recent times.

Totally agree. I've been a fan of Renshaw. And then heard a month or so ago that he met up with armstrong for training rides at monaco. Either riders gullibly look up to him or feel pressured to acquiesce if he turns up or they're best buddies for which, by association, we are naturally led to start questioning them as riders too. Judge a man by the company he keeps? But what's the point in being cynical? If there is no factual evidence for wrong doing, we shouldn't judge. Or tear down a team purely on results. Humans are prone to fluctuate. The wiggo bashers ought to think about the context. I think he is an idiot as a person and is questionable in his performances, as any one is, but think many here are ignoring his background and pedigree and the changes he's gone through since turning full time roadie. And then spouting "suspicion" indexes which are given by a soon to be proven corrupt organisation based on tests which are quoted by Tygart as being less than perfect. You can't apply performance analysis on a situation that is so moveable from year to year with so many changing factors based on poorly understood and suspect indicators.

 

[OldManThyme]

Well they had team doctors for the whole 2010 season before they hired Leinders, so...

Really? Where does it say that? And the question still remains, who was in the pool of choice at that time?

 

[Benotti69]

Really? Where does it say that? And the question still remains, who was in the pool of choice at that time?

What is this pool of choice you speak of? Do doctors hang out some labour exchange for sporting medicos?

We are talking about the richest cycling team going. They can get a sports doctor from anywhere in the world with their money! Why Leinders?

The excuse we are given is because he is a specialist with viruses at GTs! No joke go look up what Brailsford said about hiring Leinders. But he was not at the TdF this year! Is he at the Vuelta? If not why was he hired?

 

[OldManThyme]

What is this pool of choice you speak of? Do doctors hang out some labour exchange for sporting medicos?

We are talking about the richest cycling team going. They can get a sports doctor from anywhere in the world with their money! Why Leinders?

The excuse we are given is because he is a specialist with viruses at GTs! No joke go look up what Brailsford said about hiring Leinders. But he was not at the TdF this year! Is he at the Vuelta? If not why was he hired?

I think you're pushing the "infinite funds of Sky" rumour too far.
"Team Sky is not richest team in cycling. BMC, Astana & Katusha" to name a few are more so. And Sky, the media company, are involved in british cycling, not just Team Sky. Both Sky and british cycling, and british sport, have a lot to lose if Team Sky aren't clean. I'm less inclined than many here to jump to conclusions, and the default state must be to think innocent till evidence to the contrary. Though i do agree, Leinders is worrying.
But can you give me a link please to the Brailsford interview you speak of with reference to viruses? I can't find it. It would be good to read, thanks

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Both Sky and british cycling, and british sport, have a lot to lose if Team Sky aren't clean.

Though you could argue that for pretty much any team i.e. Team doping = Bad for sponsor. (On a side note didn't Festina sales actually go up after 98?)

 

[bobbins]

I think you're pushing the "infinite funds of Sky" rumour too far.
"Team Sky is not richest team in cycling. BMC, Astana & Katusha" to name a few are more so. And Sky, the media company, are involved in british cycling, not just Team Sky. Both Sky and british cycling, and british sport, have a lot to lose if Team Sky aren't clean. I'm less inclined than many here to jump to conclusions, and the default state must be to think innocent till evidence to the contrary. Though i do agree, Leinders is worrying.
But can you give me a link please to the Brailsford interview you speak of with reference to viruses? I can't find it. It would be good to read, thanks

Dave B did indeed play the 'dead soigneur' card when the fuss about Leinders kicked up. Apparently Leinders was telling Sky which riders in the peloton were juiced up - this was told by someone who used to work at BskyB.

I think maybe British Cycling are too close to the pro team now and having so much to lose means that it is in everyones interest to keep up the image of a superteam fuelled by marginal gains.

They do have a pretty much bottomless pit as far as getting funding, within reason. Having British Cycling picking up the wage bill for Team Skys employees helps though!

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Apparently Leinders was telling Sky which riders in the peloton were juiced up - this was told by someone who used to work at BskyB.

Did they expand as to what this information was to be used for?