Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Franklin]

How come OPQS have Boonen on such a good programme, sign Bottle, and do not offer him the same programme?

Come on... Bottle is old. There is only so much you can do with a program.

But as you seem to be interested in doctors: What's your opinion on Sky's medicl staff?

There must be SOMEONE with a clean explanation?

 

[Jeremiah]

Good post except for

In theory you are correct. But theory isn't reality. Go study auditing and then get back to me. Or accounting theory. Many of the business theories discussed there can be applied to pro sports. Ever heard of Capture Theory? It refers to a group with similar interests gaining control of a system. Think the Nazi's, think Stalin and also the Bolsheviks, think the UCI with McQuaid and also LA. Bipartisanship is needed. Tie that in with moral relativism (the idea that the moral majority may not actually be moral) and then try and fathom cycling.

One thing is clear. There is ZERO accountability in such a system. Even though one can make a case for your point, reality is that it is wrong, it isn't transparent and ultimately it's just a post ad-hoc justification for being a cheat. People cannot be trusted to GOVERN themselves when self interest is involved. Just as a business being audited should never have the book keeper handling cash, cycling cannot afford to have the teams and riders making their own psuedo ruleset. The natural assumption of anyone studying the business subjects I have, was that people cannot be trusted. Self interest, ego and lying are simply too prevalent.

Though you description is note worthy as it reveals part of the psychology of the sport. Understanding how people think and act is crucial to gaining wisdom, or knowledge if you will, on an entire system.

People aren't raised to be evil or bad (mostly), but they do end up falling into bad, destructive and sometimes evil habits and behaviour. I understand what you're saying, but this last sentence is a more appropriate way to analze the sport. Choice ultimately lies with the individual. You control yourself, what you do and who you are. You don't necessarily have power over any external locus, albeit your sport, how you are perceived etc, but you do say what you will and will not do.

For what it is worth, no authorative body should ever have conflicting interests, lack of separation of powers and some the garbage that goes on. Accountability, transparency and honesty are vital. Put it this way, if I were a yank, I'd have screamed blue murder when Obama refused to reveal his birth certificate. You want to be the first member of a nation, the first person above all others, yet you don't want to be the first person to uphold the basic fundamentals that are accepted by most citizens? ******bag qualities there. Very telling. Same goes with cycling and Sky. If cycling lived up to ideals it should, heck if most business/sports did, the world would be a better place. The next generation does not deserve to recommit the sins of their fathers and mothers. They should be allowed to make their own mistakes. This is why I take issue with your perspective BlackCat.

A few pages back, ok many, many back, thehog had a link to Wiggins quote about Armstrong. What he didn't mention was Wiggins was asking for blood profile posting to become the norm. Seemed to me like he wanted more transparency and accountability. I wonder what his perspective is now? Or is he safely thinking the majority of other riders Bio Passports are manipulated, safe in the knowledge of the pelotons ruleset ideals BlackCat mentioned, and that even if they are shown, they have all been cleverly enough manipulated. In other words, the product of a system where the rules are not stringent enough. If I remember correctly, Ashenden said the Bio Passport standards were not tight enough. They were too loose. Especially the off-score limit of 115.

Anyway, just some more food for thought.

Just one more thing BlackCat. Anyone doping is France is a criminal. By French law. Not the law of the peloton. Thus they deserve to be in the back of police wagon and off to the cells.

Obama. Those who look "other" in the US, ie. not white, are subject to being detained to produce their "papers" in some states.

Why were white pols in the US not required to produce their papers.

BTW, Obama produced his papers and the other side is still shouting conspiracy theories.

 

[Galic Ho]

Wiggins as I say is a more complex phenomenon but I am not convinced that shifts in muscle mass on the order of 12kg in an off season cannot be accomplished without PEDs. As you all know, you must simply burn through your carbohydrate supply followed by your glycogen, burn off your fat, and your body will begin to eat its own muscle mass. Getting through the carbs and glycogen is not such a big challenge for an athlete, and at that point, it's a matter of how much fat must you burn. If your body fat is only 2-3% you can start consuming your own muscle fairly quickly and diminish your muscle mass considerably in 3 months or so. The idea that this can only be accomplished with an illegal PED is false. However I do not say that Wiggins is clean, only that I am not convinced his performances are impossible for a clean rider. What I have seen so far from Wiggins is possible clean.

Froome, though ... He needs to go away.

Then please provide another example. Who else has done this? Tell you what, I will ask as many people I know in the gym today if they think what you've said is possible. I'll see how many, cyclists included, laugh at me.

Or perhaps I will run it past the dieticians I know. So we are in agreement Wiggins had an already sensationally low body fat level, as he was a pro cyclist. That's a given. Concrete idea. But you suggest, Wiggins in three months, could burn 12 kilos of mostly muscle, from all over his body, not lose power, but in actuality, maintain it, all whilst fueling his body with what? Essentially he'd be exercising on almost no food to do this. Thus he's not running on ATP energy. He'd completely F#%K up his metabolism by the way and lose a significant portions of his muscular power and endurance. Nice try. Science is against you on this one. Try that with anyone with detailed knowledge. You'd need the better part of a year to do it safely. Even then your body would be screaming to resort back to it's normal state.

 

[Zarvinov]

Never insult Wiggins on twitter. Because he reads it.

Perhaps he should refrain from reading such comments. I suggest that Wiggins should concentrate fully on trying to win this race, instead of digesting comments from Twitter that are clearly eliciting a highly emotional response from him.

 

[Bobby G]

Sky's performance yesterday was very good, but it wasn't beyond comprehension. Rogers and Porte put the hammer down for 2k each then Froome rode tempo for 2k and had acceleration to win. Very good, but hardly Heras pacing 10km up the climbing ditching all but LA and Beloki.

Added to which, they paid today. Rogers and Porte were nowhere, Froome was there, but stuggling a touch.

I'm not saying I'm not a little suspicious, but I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt for now.

I think the way Sky ride gets a lot of peoples backs up which doesn't make them any friends. Their arrogance also doesn't help matters. Why is it always the English speaking riders who seem so volatile when asked touchy questions. Armstrong, Cuddles, Cav, Wiggo......

 

[thehog]

Hog inside the first 30 posts of this thread.

Thank-you Sir.... I knew it was coming. Today confirmed for me. Sky and Wiggins are 100% certifiably doping. No doubt in my mind.

 

[Galic Ho]

Obama. Those who look "other" in the US, ie. not white, are subject to being detained to produce their "papers" in some states.

Why were white pols in the US not required to produce their papers.

BTW, Obama produced his papers and the other side is still shouting conspiracy theories.

So that's why he refused to do so in the first place? Why he used his Harvard law degree to not uphold part of the US constitution and got out of having to produce it in court? What you have done, was post ad-hoc justification of a schlepping clown, who ironically you defended via his own post ad-hoc justification. That's not the issue, it's the fact he refused to begin with. As I said, his initial reaction was the most telling. Exactly how he views himself. Elitist and superior to others. If he were what he says he is, it would have been the first thing he'd have shown.

Just like team Sky. I expect people on the forum to have an IQ that can fathom this. Clearly, once again I was mistake. Get back to me when it hits triple figures. Wait...they don't make drugs for that. These people don't play by the rules imposed on the majority of society. It's against their nature. They think they are special and above them. It's a character besmirchment...though like you they are too stupid to realise it's themselves they've sullied. Good job. You put forward a defense for a muppet I wouldn't trust to run a chook raffle in a pub. We all know how you vote...next please? Next time please reply about Sky and actually use a proper rebutal. This ain't about your short sighted political opinion. You selectively commented on the most irrelevant thing I typed...the bloody useless example and you misinterpretted the intention. Don't bother replying back.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

Hog inside the first 30 posts of this thread.

Out of interest, what response would not have shown they are doping?

 

[noddy69]

I will reserve judgement on the issue for the moment. What I will say is that I believe sky will crack before the end of the tour. The way they are working at the minute is playing into Cadels hands. They are working the team to the bone early on and by week three will have nothing left. BMC on the other hand will have plenty.
I also believe the tour is a much cleaner place then it used to be. Look at the decimated fields over the last two days on small climbs. Its gonna get interesting soon.

 

[MrRoboto]

After seeing yesterday's effort RS called the rest day bloodbags in early.

Someone forgot to tell Klöden.

 

[maxmartin]

Thank-you Sir.... I knew it was coming. Today confirmed for me. Sky and Wiggins are 100% certifiably doping. No doubt in my mind.

Agree.

 

[Franklin]

Sky's performance yesterday was very good, but it wasn't beyond comprehension.

USPS domestiques rolled in late as well, usually softpedalling.

But what is constantly repeated here is that Rogers and Porte just had to go fast for just a KM. Well.... even after that they went over the line chatting and having a laugh at 13th and 14th place. So get that into you system... the domestiques that just had to power up a bit even afterward outpaced the majority of the wannabe contenders while having tea and biscuits.

I would be rather shocked if they made that mistake again.

But let's just wave away the performance... What would be your motivation to hire Leinders? It's the recurring question... no answer yet.

The cleanest, noblest, most talented team in the world gets a shady medical staff. Odd in the extreme wouldn't you say?

 

[Caruut]

Out of interest, what response would not have shown they are doping?

For me, a calm reply of "With this sport's history, of course those questions have to be asked, but I can assure you that I'm clean." would have had pretty much no effect on my opinion of their cleanliness.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

For me, a calm reply of "With this sport's history, of course those questions have to be asked, but I can assure you that I'm clean." would have had pretty much no effect on my opinion of their cleanliness.

I'm just surprised that getting angry at being called a cheat and a liar is considered to be evidence of doping, when it is equally consistent with not doping.

 

[Galic Ho]

How come OPQS have Boonen on such a good programme, sign Bottle, and do not offer him the same programme?

Only a fanboy and Sky apologist would ask such a ludicrous question about Bottle. Heard of USADA? Heard of the world of hurt they threw at LA and Bruyneel and the Postal doctors?

I guess not, because if you had been paying attention, not fapping over the Wiggins posters adorning the walls at home, you would have heard all of the above and know fully well such work was achieved via the testimony of 10 former USPS riders. Four of whom are rumoured to racing this years Tour. Wanna take a stab in the dark whom was theorised months and months ago in the Clinic to have talked? Does it make sense now why he's normal by former performance indicators? Nah, because you were trolling. You already knew...if not you are dumber than I already imagined.

If you want to post trolling garbage, go back to the pro forum. Go fap over Sky in silence. Perhaps it's time to ask the mods to step in and get rid of you trolls. You and seramatic are as bad as BPC, aka Arbiter, aka biggest LA nut hugger ever.

 

[function]

I am laughing about JV a month ago trying to sell us a load of equine feces about the sport cleaning itself up.

So you're going to ignore the biological passport data (reticulate percentages) supporting JV's statement? Fair enough you're free to follow your belief.

 

[Walkman]

USPS domestiques rolled in late as well, usually softpedalling.

But what is constantly repeated here is that Rogers and Porte just had to go fast for just a KM. Well.... even after that they went over the line chatting and having a laugh at 13th and 14th place. So get that into you system... the domestiques that just had to power up a bit even afterward outpaced the majority of the wannabe contenders while having tea and biscuits.

I would be rather shocked if they made that mistake again.

But let's just wave away the performance... What would be your motivation to hire Leinders? It's the recurring question... no answer yet.

The cleanest, noblest, most talented team in the world gets a shady medical staff. Odd in the extreme wouldn't you say?

BANG!!

Spot on. Couldn't be more odd.

The very best would be if any journalist or perhaps even a guy like JV (although I think even JV will go easy on the anti-doping talk after him having his back yard trashed by USADA) could ask SKY why they would hire a guy lika that?!

 

[MarkvW]

Sky is really awesome this year. Reminiscent of the dominant power of the USPS team!

 

[Bobby G]

USPS domestiques rolled in late as well, usually softpedalling.

But let's just wave away the performance... What would be your motivation to hire Leinders? It's the recurring question... no answer yet.

This is strange for a number of reasons. Irrespective of whether Sky are doping or not, why the hell would they employ such a shady figure? They play the cleaner than clean game, but then leave this massive ***** in their ""we are clean" argument.

Even if they are clean, how could employing Leinders be seen as a wise move?

I'm yet to decide which side of the fence I fall on this, as I really don't know enough about it at this stage.

The sad thing is, in our sport, most suspected dopers end up being confirmed dopers.

 

[King Of The Wolds]

I'm just surprised that getting angry at being called a cheat and a liar is considered to be evidence of doping, when it is equally consistent with not doping.

Exactly. If this is evidence of doping, what evidence do we have of non-doping teams' reaction to the same accusation? If none can be provided as means of comparison, then this little exercise by the amateur psychologists is worthless.

Sky may well be doping and there may be a 'case' of evidence being built up the Clinic for other things, but let's put this one to bed either way right now please.

 

[The Hitch]

He used the term "fuc_king wan)kers"........

Please tell me someone used the elephant in the room follow up question - if you dont like people accusing you, why did you say Evans was the first clean winner - ergo Sastre doped.

 

[Fergoose]

Today Sky were struggling as a team; they could barely contain the breakaways at the start and burnt off their domestiques. Hard to recall USPostal ever having such difficulties in the first week.

Wiggins has been doing an impression of Evan's media relations technique since the start of the tour, not only with questions about doping. Near the start he got asked about the first week and if he was worried about crashing due to breaking his collar bone twelve months ago. He give a disdainful laugh and said, “I knew someone would ask me that one” then turned his back on the interviewer. Later he got asked a question where the interviewer phrased the question along the lines that Sky had been lucky in the first week as he hadn’t crashed out – that didn’t go down well. “Pfft. Lucky yeah, maybe I’m due some?” was the bitter reply.

The interviews are on this page somewhere.

All I’ve learnt from his outburst is that Brad is stressed out with the weight of expectation and that immature journalists think they can earn notoriety by asking stupid questions deliberately aimed at provoking people. I also learnt that I don't like Wiggins terribly much as an individual. Sure he is under pressure and I can understand him being outraged at the question. But cut out the potty mouth. Not that that changes my opinion on whether he is doping or not one bit though.

 

[The Hitch]

Attacking the character of those who doubt him is very bad, in my view, whether he is clean or dirty. He is allegedly a fan of cycling - he knows the history as well as any of us. To assume that you can perform well and not at least have to answer that question is ridiculous. He must have known it would be asked - if I had a clear conscience, I think I would be calm about it, but I am not Wiggins, and I'm getting into amateur psychology.

And his argument is the same old - i train harder stuff that all people that have been caught doping use.

So if he makes it, he should explain why him training 5 hours a day turns him from tp rider to TDF champion, while people like Valverde, Gesink VDB Nibali Basso etc etc etc who started off way ahead are just 2 years later finding it impossible to hold his wheel in the mountains.

Are they all just lazy?

 

[King Of The Wolds]

BANG!!

Spot on. Couldn't be more odd.

The very best would be if any journalist or perhaps even a guy like JV (although I think even JV will go easy on the anti-doping talk after him having his back yard trashed by USADA) could ask SKY why they would hire a guy lika that?!

Given cycling's background, it is ill advised. But as evidence of doping, again, it's barely worth the paper it's written on.

Many of the great sports coaches of the Eastern Bloc countries from the 70s and 80s, who were intrinsically involved in the systematic doping programmes run by those countries, went to work in the west after the fall of the communism. Jurgen Groebler for example. Why? Because they were the best in the field, regardless of whether their athletes were drugged or not. Their work still forms the basis for what we know about sports science today.

The dodgy coaches, doctors and DS's from the late 90s and early 2000s? Guess what? They're still the best in their field, regardless of whether the athletes are doped or not.

Again, Sky may be doped, this one as evidence is again clutching at straws.

 

[function]

Someone forgot to tell Klöden.

Kloden is too old so they are spreading it around the "younger" riders, have I missed anything?