Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[bobbins]

Wasn't he coaching somewhere?

 

[JimmyFingers]

who knows?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

There are many people that know the truth regards BC/ Sky. Several X WCPP riders and an X coach have told me things that I initially felt lacked credibility..but when they come independently of each other that doubt diminishes.
Unfortunately, and rather like echoes of the long history of the Armstrong saga most work within cycling and have much to lose by going public with there knowledge and , without concrete evidence to support there claims many fear being dragged into courts.
My gut feeling is BC/ Sky will, eventually, crack under the strain of the whispering and truth will out like the proverbial dam bursting.
BC/ Sky have made more enemies than most people realise.

That's the thing - coming up with a mechanism whereby people can come clean without fear or recrimination. Even if you don't want to work at BC any more, there's tendrils like Mike Andersen experienced, that mean getting work in your chosen profession is difficult to do afterwards.

 

[JimmyFingers]

That's the thing - coming up with a mechanism whereby people can come clean without fear or recrimination. Even if you don't want to work at BC any more, there's tendrils like Mike Andersen experienced, that mean getting work in your chosen profession is difficult to do afterwards.

See this is what I don't get: why should you be able to come clean without retribution? Why does admitting to something bad make it ok to have done it? Do you want something in place where everyone who has doped admits it, gets a clean slate and a pat on the back and the sport can begin again?

Does that apply to Wiggins?

If you cheat eventually you have to pay the piper.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

See this is what I don't get: why should you be able to come clean without retribution? Why does admitting to something bad make it ok to have done it? Do you want something in place where everyone who has doped admits it, gets a clean slate and a pat on the back and the sport can begin again?

If you cheat eventually you have to pay the piper.

See this is what I don't get. You are so knotted up you don't stop to think for a second that what someone is typing is actually relevant.

Try this on: someone NOT involved in the doping could hear or see something and wish to report it. I even provided an example. Mike Andersen did not dope, he just saw evidence of it.

 

[bobbins]

See this is what I don't get: why should you be able to come clean without retribution? Why does admitting to something bad make it ok to have done it? Do you want something in place where everyone who has doped admits it, gets a clean slate and a pat on the back and the sport can begin again?

Does that apply to Wiggins?

If you cheat eventually you have to pay the piper.

I read that to mean if someone who knows things speaks about what they saw or experienced, they will be 'blacklisted' in the small UK cycling world and will struggle to find work and will be in effect shunned. Some of the people involved in Sky / BC carry lots of influence, rightly or wrongly and people who don't know the real facts give them a lot of credence.

 

[JimmyFingers]

See this is what I don't get. You are so knotted up you don't stop to think for a second that what someone is typing is actually relevant.

Try this on: someone NOT involved in the doping could hear or see something and wish to report it. I even provided an example. Mike Andersen did not dope, he just saw evidence of it.

Fair enough then: I fully agree that people should be able to report misuse without fear of censure, professionally.

 

[MatParker117]

That's the thing - coming up with a mechanism whereby people can come clean without fear or recrimination. Even if you don't want to work at BC any more, there's tendrils like Mike Andersen experienced, that mean getting work in your chosen profession is difficult to do afterwards.

https://secure.crimestoppers-uk.org/UKAD/

 

[Dear Wiggo]

https://secure.crimestoppers-uk.org/UKAD/

Ok to clarify: once someone finds out it was YOU that dobbed them in, what's the mechanism to keep your future (employment or otherwise) safe?

 

[bobbins]

Ok to clarify: once someone finds out it was YOU that dobbed them in, what's the mechanism to keep your future (employment or otherwise) safe?

There isn't one. It's a very closed shop and anyone that rocks the boat will be in for a very too time, overtly or covertly.

That's the way things happen in most industries, there is no reason for cycling to be any different.

 

[MatParker117]

Ok to clarify: once someone finds out it was YOU that dobbed them in, what's the mechanism to keep your future (employment or otherwise) safe?

Witness protection in the case of otherwise. IF (which I highly doubt at best) there is a massive doping conspiracy at British Cycling or Team Sky then a fair amount of people are looking at a very long stretch behind bars for various reasons.

 

[JimmyFingers]

There isn't one. It's a very closed shop and anyone that rocks the boat will be in for a very too time, overtly or covertly.

That's the way things happen in most industries, there is no reason for cycling to be any different.

Dependant on the premise there is something to rock the boat about

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Dependant on the premise there is something to rock the boat about

Nah everyone stopped doping in 2006, didn't you get the memo?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Nah everyone stopped doping in 2006, didn't you get the memo?

There was a memo? I never get those. I don't even know what they look like

 

[DirtyWorks]

Witness protection in the case of otherwise. IF (which I highly doubt at best) there is a massive doping conspiracy at British Cycling or Team Sky then a fair amount of people are looking at a very long stretch behind bars for various reasons.

The system blames the athlete and the federation-blessed doping continues.

Are there enforceable criminal laws for doping in the UK? It's an honest question. In the U.S. as an example, there are none. There have been limited success in enforcement based on lying to law enforcement and such, but the burden of proof for a *criminal* doping trial is so high it's almost impossible to win a case. There are laws, but no enforcement. That is by design...

The same question asked a different way: It's impossible the U.S. cycling federation was not involved in Wonderboy's doping and somehow, some way only Wonderboy sees any penalties kind of penalties at all. None of those penalties were criminal and nothing happened to the federation. I would think the U.K. is set up similarly because it is a longtime IOC member.

 

[MatParker117]

The system blames the athlete and the federation-blessed doping continues.

Are there enforceable criminal laws for doping in the UK? It's an honest question. In the U.S. as an example, there are none. There have been limited success in enforcement based on lying to law enforcement and such, but the burden of proof for a *criminal* doping trial is so high it's almost impossible to win a case. There are laws, but no enforcement. That is by design...

The same question asked a different way: It's impossible the U.S. cycling federation was not involved in Wonderboy's doping and somehow, some way only Wonderboy sees any penalties kind of penalties at all. None of those penalties were criminal and nothing happened to the federation. I would think the U.K. is set up similarly because it is a longtime IOC member.

A lot of Sky riders and BC recieve funding from the UK government. Any proof of doping would lead to fraud and cheating the public revenue charges,

 

[DirtyWorks]

A lot of Sky riders and BC recieve funding from the UK government. Any proof of doping would lead to fraud and cheating the public revenue charges,

Don't be so sure unless you know the rules well. When the scandal breaks, will it be islolated to a 'dirty SKY' so as not to imperil the UK funding?

You need to see how that would actually play out anywhere from 3-10 years from now if the scandal doesn't break sooner. If it is the typical IOC/UCI scandal, it's dirty riders because the IOC would never allow doping.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Don't be so sure unless you know the rules well. When the scandal breaks, will it be islolated to a 'dirty SKY' so as not to imperil the UK funding?

You need to see how that would actually play out anywhere from 3-10 years from now if the scandal doesn't break sooner. If it is the typical IOC/UCI scandal, it's dirty riders because the IOC would never allow doping.

But here's the problem with the conflict of interests and the blurring of the lines. To the layman in the street, where does British Cycling stop and Team Sky begin? Obviously the foreign riders are not part of British Cycling, but Kennaugh, Thomas, Wiggins et al are very much part of British Cycling. Chris Froome will be linked to it in the public's eye because of his Olympic medal. If there is doping at Team Sky, Dave Brailsford will be asked about it. He is the face of British Cycling's management as well, so any doping case at Team Sky reflects on him, and by proxy then is projected down onto British Cycling as a whole. If they can satisfactorily limit the rot so that it's "dirty Sky, no problem at BC" then Brailsford will still be caught up in it, because it will have gone on under his watch. And if Brailsford is caught up in it, then it will call into question everything achieved under him - including a decade of track cycling successes.

 

[sittingbison]

There was a memo? I never get those. I don't even know what they look like

it was 200 pages with a 1000 page appendix

 

[Dear Wiggo]

it was 200 pages with a 1000 page appendix

If it's not a Brit thing Jimmy can defend he's not interested ;-)

 

[blackcat]

There are many people that know the truth regards BC/ Sky. Several X WCPP riders and an X coach have told me things that I initially felt lacked credibility..but when they come independently of each other that doubt diminishes.
Unfortunately, and rather like echoes of the long history of the Armstrong saga most work within cycling and have much to lose by going public with there knowledge and , without concrete evidence to support there claims many fear being dragged into courts.
My gut feeling is BC/ Sky will, eventually, crack under the strain of the whispering and truth will out like the proverbial dam bursting.
BC/ Sky have made more enemies than most people realise.

just check Vinnicombes physique. Best kilo rider of his era. Check the Hoy physique when the kilo is still an olympic event. Drugs get you knighthoods.

 

[blackcat]

But here's the problem with the conflict of interests and the blurring of the lines. To the layman in the street, where does British Cycling stop and Team Sky begin? Obviously the foreign riders are not part of British Cycling, but Kennaugh, Thomas, Wiggins et al are very much part of British Cycling. Chris Froome will be linked to it in the public's eye because of his Olympic medal. If there is doping at Team Sky, Dave Brailsford will be asked about it. He is the face of British Cycling's management as well, so any doping case at Team Sky reflects on him, and by proxy then is projected down onto British Cycling as a whole. If they can satisfactorily limit the rot so that it's "dirty Sky, no problem at BC" then Brailsford will still be caught up in it, because it will have gone on under his watch. And if Brailsford is caught up in it, then it will call into question everything achieved under him - including a decade of track cycling successes.

took what, 15 years for USPS doping to come out. And if Armstrong never came back, it would only have been knowledge for a very few like the 12 on the clinic.

 

[bobbins]

took what, 15 years for USPS doping to come out. And if Armstrong never came back, it would only have been knowledge for a very few like the 12 on the clinic.

If what I have heard Vinnicombe allege in the past comes out, the whole BC program would be in the spotlight. Again it all comes down to here say though and I'm not sure if he's a great witness. Combine that with the Sky setup, there are some dubious people involved in that and the entire set up looks questionable. I'm not sure how widely knows the whole story is and it's in no ones best interests to come forward. Unless they want out of the sport completely.

 

[coinneach]

There are many people that know the truth regards BC/ Sky. Several X WCPP riders and an X coach have told me things that I initially felt lacked credibility..but when they come independently of each other that doubt diminishes.
Unfortunately, and rather like echoes of the long history of the Armstrong saga most work within cycling and have much to lose by going public with there knowledge and , without concrete evidence to support there claims many fear being dragged into courts.
My gut feeling is BC/ Sky will, eventually, crack under the strain of the whispering and truth will out like the proverbial dam bursting.
BC/ Sky have made more enemies than most people realise.

Come on Darryl; you read the Clinic....there are load of enemies in cycling!
But that's the trouble with "whispering", its not evidence. Its easy to waive a list of names in front of the Prime Minister, but that doesn't make it right.
Sky/ News International have been through a HUGE damage limitation exercise with phone hacking: they'll spare no resources to avoid that again.
We seem to be fixated by the "echoes of the long history of the Armstrong saga". The real lesson from Armstrong is that the truth will out eventually, and its not worth the personal or commercial risk.

 

[Avoriaz]

If what I have heard Vinnicombe allege in the past comes out, the whole BC program would be in the spotlight. Again it all comes down to here say though and I'm not sure if he's a great witness. Combine that with the Sky setup, there are some dubious people involved in that and the entire set up looks questionable. I'm not sure how widely knows the whole story is and it's in no ones best interests to come forward. Unless they want out of the sport completely.

Erm, would it not be a bigger issue for Australia Cycling, which is already undergoing some kind of review?

I know there are Aussies involved in BC abd Sky, but AFAIK Shane Sutton remained in the UK after his racing career, going on to a role with Welsh Cycling, and has not been involved with Vinnicombe.

Has anyone "joined the dots" yet?