Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Mellow Velo]

Clintonomics - "the industry should regulate itself".

On second thoughts, don't bother with the link.

 

[thehog]

There is stuff out there about Sutton, although in PR terms his departure would be 50 times worse then either Yates or Rogers. Not only has he been Wiggins' coach for the last two years, but he's the head coach of the GB olympic programme and Brailsford's right hand man.

Yep the Sutton situations needs to be handled with surgical gloves. The investigations in Australia may unearth some early doping but his career is prodomently in the UK.

Be interesting to see where it leads. I think he's safe for the moment.

Rogers and Yates were overt dopers themselves and support the practice. Sutton was more discrete.

At this point there is little incentive for UK based riders to come out and say what they know about Sutton.

 

[coinneach]

At this point there is little incentive for UK based riders to come out and say what they know about Sutton.

LOTS of them have come out and said what they know about Sutton, and it all corroborates up to one story...its just you don't listen to them because it doesn't suit your twisted view on things.

 

[thehog]

LOTS of them have come out and said what they know about Sutton, and it all corroborates up to one story...its just you don't listen to them because it doesn't suit your twisted view on things.

eh? what are you talking 'bout Willis?

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Recent clean up makes the shop look much better moving forward, but it will only take one rogue elephant to bring the house down.

 

[Mellow Velo]

LOTS of them have come out and said what they know about Sutton, and it all corroborates up to one story...its just you don't listen to them because it doesn't suit your twisted view on things.

Excellent post.
In the absence of even the slightest evidence, the Hog is once again blowing smoke.......or maybe that should read smog.

 

[Le Baroudeur]

Rogers to Saxo is interesting, We'll get a clear comparison between margianl gains and doping practices. If Rogers isn't as good next year it's a clear sign that marginal gains beats doping hands down and there will no longer be a need for riders to dope in the future. Could be the best thing to happen to cycling in years.

I assume this is sarcasm?

If Sky isn't as good next year you can probably put a fair amount of that down the effects of this little British inquisition on team moral (assuming certain medical staff were doing only what is claimed).

I wouldn't be surprised if Brailsford has a portrait of Bjarne next to his bed, such is the similarity of approach, from shaven head to the ridiculous attention to detail, with the obvious exception of Team Sky's love of PR and selling it as the great innovation of the century. Undeniably there might be differences in the lengths at which they are prepared and able to go to, Sky benefitting from National facilities and some shared cross discipline coaching and consultation with the rowing and swimming teams, higher budget, etc. but the general ethos of no stone unturned is the same.

However, you can take all the legal (including grey) steps you need to prepare and get the maximum out of your riders, but by far the largest legal improvement comes with team spirit, moral, security, and trust in the leadership and your team mates.

Anyone who has followed the roller coaster at Saxo since 2010 will tell you how quickly and with what volatility team spirit can change and just how big an impact finally having stability, security and leaders on two wheels has been.

If Mick has moved to Saxo, and we assume Sky has run a clean team, his form will largely depend on how he settles, and the tasks set for him, and not a lack of the mythical 'marginal gains'.

 

[Froome19]

LOTS of them have come out and said what they know about Sutton, and it all corroborates up to one story...its just you don't listen to them because it doesn't suit your twisted view on things.

Brilliant post.
Sums up this thread.

 

[thehog]

LOTS of them have come out and said what they know about Sutton, and it all corroborates up to one story...its just you don't listen to them because it doesn't suit your twisted view on things.

Do "lots of them" have names?

Not sure what you're talking about as its in direct conflict to what Darryl Webster says on this very forum.

CS has also said different.

"Lots" indeed!

 

[Mellow Velo]

Do "lots of them" have names?

Not sure what you're talking about as its in direct conflict to what Darryl Webster says on this very forum.

CS has also said different.

"Lots" indeed!

How's that Richie Porte link coming along?

Darryl Webster shares the same initials as David Walsh.
Coincidence?

 

[Tinman]

Finally watched the Wiggins year in yellow documentary. Slick production.

Moment of the film for me is the discussion on doping where Cath sits there fidgeting, looking very uncomfortable, while Wiggo gives us the Lance spiel about all the things he would loose if he were to dope (this was filmed before/during TdF, before the book & USADA), with the final comment from Cath: "you make a lot of people very happy"...

This comment has been spinning around my head for hours since. Why say that at the conclusion in a discussion on doping???

The documentary is one of an apologetic hero in a circus where everyone on the inside is in on "the game" being played, a game where the public and journos are stupid (Wiggins saying as much) and have to be given their heroes, with Wiggins the almost apologetic lead hero semi reluctantly doing the deed. In this context Cath's comment makes total sense. Someone has to be the winner, it's all a game (including the doping as this is the context of the discussion) and it might as well be you... the fact that you make so many people happy is a justification for it all...

It's also the same way Ian Thorpe has expressed himself in the past. As a reluctant hero in a dark game made for the masses who only look for superficial gratification.

Brad looks remarkably fresh throughout the TdF by the way, including his arrival at the various mountain stages (smirking at Froome) as well as his final lead out for Cav in Paris. And Froome, in return for playing the game, has what he wanted for playing his part, a stab at the Tour in 2013. With Brailsford the ultimate cycling hero, because his superior program is rider independent, ie he can produce a winner any time. Wiggins, Froome, Tiernan Locke in the future, it doesn't matter, it's the Brailsford program of marginal gains as ultimate winner.

 

[Tinman]

Re UCI no needles policy and picture of Brad with plaster on his vein.

Here's what Dr Freeman, Sky doctor at the TdF had to say early in the Dauphine. Despite his black and white comment on needles his lead rider is either being tapped or receiving an injection in the TdF. Interview published here: http://www.cyclesportmag.com/features/all-aboard-the-magic-bus/

I ask what he makes of the UCI’s new no-needles policy. “I think it’s fantastic,” he says. “It takes away a large window of opportunity for a lot of products. It means that there are no short cuts to proper rest and recovery. And it also removes that ladder of progression. If riders get used to vitamin injections as a matter of routine, it makes it easier to not question what’s in the syringe.”

 

[Tinman]

and from the same cyclesport mag article. Instructions on helmet cleaning and mobiles over dinner, but fascinating not to see a single line on "clean sport", "no doping" or just "no needles" for a team that cares so much. Just a generic "we will follow the rules"...

TEAM SKY’S RULES
Written on a poster inside the bus

We will respect one another and watch each other’s backs
We will be honest with one another
We will respect team equipment
We will be on time
We will communicate openly and regularly
If we want our helmets cleaned we will leave them on the bus
We will pool all prize money from races and distribute at the end of the year
Any team bonuses from the team will be split between riders on that race
We will give 15% of all race bonuses and prize money to staff
We will speak English if we are in a group
We will debrief after every race
We will always wear team kit and apparel as instructed in the team dress code
We will not use our phones at dinner – if absolutely required we will leave the table to have the conversation
We will respect the bus
We will respect personnel and management
We will ask for any changes to be made to the bikes (gearing, wheel selection etc) the night before the race and not on race day
We will follow the RULES

 

[Grandillusion]

and from the same cyclesport mag article. Instructions on helmet cleaning and mobiles over dinner, but fascinating not to see a single line on "clean sport", "no doping" or just "no needles" for a team that cares so much. Just a generic "we will follow the rules"...

TEAM SKY’S RULES
Written on a poster inside the bus

We will respect one another and watch each other’s backs
We will be honest with one another
We will respect team equipment
We will be on time
We will communicate openly and regularly
If we want our helmets cleaned we will leave them on the bus
We will pool all prize money from races and distribute at the end of the year
Any team bonuses from the team will be split between riders on that race
We will give 15% of all race bonuses and prize money to staff
We will speak English if we are in a group
We will debrief after every race
We will always wear team kit and apparel as instructed in the team dress code
We will not use our phones at dinner – if absolutely required we will leave the table to have the conversation
We will respect the bus
We will respect personnel and management
We will ask for any changes to be made to the bikes (gearing, wheel selection etc) the night before the race and not on race day
We will follow the RULES

But it'd be just absurd to see a sign up in the team bus saying.. "and we shall not inject Edgar, nor transfuse our own previously removed supercharged blood".

 

[Parker]

and from the same cyclesport mag article. Instructions on helmet cleaning and mobiles over dinner, but fascinating not to see a single line on "clean sport", "no doping" or just "no needles" for a team that cares so much. Just a generic "we will follow the rules"...

There's no rule listed about wearing a helmet in races or using a motorbike either. It's almost as though these are internal team rules supplementary to the actual rules of cycling.

 

[Tinman]

My point is that if "clean" is your raison d'etre as a team you reflect that as the biggest issue on this poster. Doping requires daily/weekly deceipt. It's part of the daily rider routine just like helmet cleaning, and bike/gear selection requests.

Wrapping it up in "we will follow the rules" leaves it where it has always been, business as usual.

 

[BroDeal]

They forgot the most important rule:

If you were among the 90% of the peloton that doped then keep your mouth shut. Otherwise you will be sacked unless there is no widely known information that implicates you.

 

[Grandillusion]

Brodeal: +1 I think think they write.

 

[Grandillusion]

My point is that if "clean" is your raison d'etre as a team you reflect that as the biggest issue on this poster. Doping requires daily/weekly deceipt. It's part of the daily rider routine just like helmet cleaning, and bike/gear selection requests.

Wrapping it up in "we will follow the rules" leaves it where it has always been, business as usual.

No, doping is the big unmentionable, and even in a loudly vociferous "clean team" it is still the elephant which shall not be named. It's supposed to be beyond discussion, something so heinous nobody can even think of the possibility.

Truly absurd in such a dope-ridden sport, but the levels of self deception are exceptional.

And I think Wiggo is probably clean, but don't really care, 'cos he's been such a pathetic cowardly silent knob at such a crucial time for the sport he supposedly cares so much for. He's got the gall to call other people ******s?

 

[oldcrank]

Finally watched the Wiggins year in yellow documentary.

I just watched it a second time. First time through I missed this:
INTERVIEWER (to Shane Sutton): You have an OBE.
SHANE SUTTON: Pfffft....on other bug gers effort.

 

[martinvickers]

I just watched it a second time. First time through I missed this:
INTERVIEWER (to Shane Sutton): You have an OBE.
SHANE SUTTON: Pfffft....on other bug gers effort.

Yes, pretty clear Shane was trying for the "he's a character" role - little acronyms, just our of nowhere - can we assume SKY actually stands for Sutton killed yatesy?

I thought it was pretty well made in a cinematic sense, a few interesting insights (wiggins is NOT fond of Froome, and it's mutual) but said absolutely nothing useful one way or the other on doping - sure, wiggins made his statement - but honestly, there was no real evidence either way - you left it thinking broadly what you did when you started. if you thought he was a crook, you still did. if you didn't, nothing to change your mind.

 

[martinvickers]

Do people want a new thread for the walsh brailsford interview - it's now online

highlights :

Intro:

I tell Brailsford where I stand:

“If you put a gun to my head and said my life depended upon getting it right with Team Sky’s performance, I would say you won clean. But I’d still be relieved to hear the click of the empty chamber.”

I believe the team is clean partly because Jonathan Vaughters, Brailsford’s counterpart at the Garmin team, says if Bradley Wiggins had stayed at his team, he would have won the Tour there, and there are plenty of reasons for believing Vaughters runs a clean programme.

On Geert :

“At that point, I should have held my hand up and said, ‘We’re going to have to change our policy at Team Sky about just employing British doctors who haven’t been in cycling. If I could go back in time that is what I would do. We asked a load of people about who to employ, we were given names and recommendations, one of whom was Geert. I think there were four candidates in the end and we flew each one to Manchester.

“Steve Peters, a man in whom I have the utmost trust, interviewed the doctors and when you think Steve is a forensic psychiatrist, you can be certain the process was thorough.” Would Leinders have been quizzed about his past and whether he had been part of a doping programme?

“For sure. It was one of the key issues in the process. For sure that was discussed. One hundred per cent. Then, much later, we were confronted with Geert’s former directeur sportif, Theo de Rooy, saying they had a doping programme in the Rabobank team and the medical staff were fully aware of it.

“We did the right thing, asked him about it, but didn’t get any concrete information. In the end we told him, ‘We’re going to have to end this association. We’ve now employed an Irish guy as a full-time team doctor and we’re back to a British and Irish medical team who haven’t previously worked in cycling’.”

On 'attacking' riders

“We have looked at what kind of riders we need to win the Tour de France and the guys you are talking about [the likes of Chris Froome] can maintain their threshold power for 20 minutes, because that is the average length of an Alpine climb,” he says.

His riders are encouraged to maintain an even pace on the climbs and not react to sudden accelerations. It can make for unexciting races in the mountains. “If you want spectacular, jumping all over the place, at crazy speeds, let them dope. You can’t have your cake and eat it. That’s the reality."

Have at it, you animals!

 

[thehog]

On 'attacking' riders



Have at it, you animals!

Thanks for publishing. I've not read the full article. Will do so in the morning.

One comment re: attacking riders. Has he not seem Froome at he Vuelta in 2011? or his attempts at the 2012 Tour.

Strange.

Anyway look forward to reading off all it in the morning.

 

[Ferminal]

Is Brailsford saying that only dopers have very high one-two minute power relative to their average for the whole climb?

 

[thehog]

Is Brailsford saying that only dopers have very high one-two minute power relative to their average for the whole climb?

My biggest fear is that the Brailsford interview would only ask more questions than provide answers.

This was a major concern of mine and its appears to now be bearing fruit.

He really needs to provide full disclosure. Until that time the jury is out on Sky.

They need to come clean, pardon the pun.