Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[coinneach]

That's all very interesting about the Hog, but I wonder if I could get back to Sky for a minute?
I am wondering on the reason(s) behind their recent change of policy/restatement of original policy?
At first, I thought it was they were scared of the Hog (only kidding!)
Then I thought it was Lance / USADA related
Then I thought it was driven by the sponsor (News International not wanting another scandal at any cost).
Now, I'm wondering if they got wind of the forthcoming investigation into the old Linda McCartney Team? Yates connection between to the 2 is just too strong, and potentially toxic. I also wonder if that's why Yates retired rather than got another job?

 

[MartinGT]

Its definatley a clean up exercise. Dave could be a polotician the BS he spouts out. He really does think were all daft man!

Oh and can we stop it with the British Cry Babies, and Brit slagging>

I am British and I am not a fan boi etc, but it does get my back up when people are all tarring us Brits as Team Sly (like that one ) fans.

 

[MartinGT]

That's all very interesting about the Hog, but I wonder if I could get back to Sky for a minute?
I am wondering on the reason(s) behind their recent change of policy/restatement of original policy?
At first, I thought it was they were scared of the Hog (only kidding!)
Then I thought it was Lance / USADA related
Then I thought it was driven by the sponsor (News International not wanting another scandal at any cost).
Now, I'm wondering if they got wind of the forthcoming investigation into the old Linda McCartney Team? Yates connection between to the 2 is just too strong, and potentially toxic. I also wonder if that's why Yates retired rather than got another job?

Sheeeeeet! I forgot about Yates & McCartney team!

Interesting!

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Did you ever consider that people who would complain about this sort of thing need to hike their panties up and HTFU or simply not read the thread. The Hog has been posting like this since the beginning of the forum. Just because a bunch of British crybabies are looking for any excuse they can find to complain does not mean you have to do anything. Maybe you should consider banning people who make bogus complaints.

It's actually much simpler than that. Hog's self-congratulatory stuff is mildly amusing once or twice, but no more than this. Once you've read "Good post, Hog" from Hog a dozen times it's bl**dy annoying at best and at worst it's a sign of a man who's fallen for his own self-generated publicity.

On a deeper level, the people complaining about Hog for the self-congratulatory b*llocks are actually doing him a favour, as it helps keep him in touch with reality.

 

[MartinGT]

Whats more annoying in this thread are people going on and on and on over old ground.

If you dont like what TheHog is posting either ignore OR take it up with an admin if its that bad.

Get over yourselves ffs

 

[Mellow Velo]

That's all very interesting about the Hog, but I wonder if I could get back to Sky for a minute?
I am wondering on the reason(s) behind their recent change of policy/restatement of original policy?
At first, I thought it was they were scared of the Hog (only kidding!)
Then I thought it was Lance / USADA related
Then I thought it was driven by the sponsor (News International not wanting another scandal at any cost).
Now, I'm wondering if they got wind of the forthcoming investigation into the old Linda McCartney Team? Yates connection between to the 2 is just too strong, and potentially toxic. I also wonder if that's why Yates retired rather than got another job?

Sheeeeeet! I forgot about Yates & McCartney team!

Interesting!

I'm not joining these dots.
Whatever doping "programme" the LM team were running must have been on the cheap.
Hard to connect Yates to Tenerife via them, even if this investigation does put him in the frame.

As I said earlier, re-locating to Girona, would hardly be a PR coup, since it's rep is as bad as anywhere.

I don't think Sky give a toss about location links. I reckon that they will still tootle up Tiede in the new year.

 

[RownhamHill]

Perhaps, Hog, if both sides did not so quickly degenerate into sneers and smears, people might be less tribal.

Some of the pretty contemptuous stuff posted here has one intention and one intention only - to de-legitimise people who don't agree with the poster ("british crybabies", "fanboys", disgruntled aussies, etc).

It's perhaps no surprise that only those who can give as good as they get stay the course - and the thread degenerates into a broadly nationalistic, certainly tribal battle of mutual contempt.

It leaves no room for analysis, or thinking, or evidence, or "trust but verify".

No - you are expected to pick a 'side' early on;if you refuse to, one of the 'elders; will do it for you; and thereafter you're only role is to twist whatever can be found to suit 'your' side; all motives are assumed malign and rationality is a dirty word.

In so far as the 'sky-hater' tribe find this chilling, I can't but feel they have really only themselves to blame. The same for 'Sky-philic' tribe, frankly, but they seem to be abusive just a little less.

As for sides, this particular thread is one of three, and the currently most active of those three, that absolutely dominates the clinic; the other two being LA, of course. you only seem to be allowed two sides at the moment - living in the north of Ireland as I currently do, that is depressingly familiar.

I can't agree that no-one get's their say on the various bits of Sky - there's 9000 posts and a million views says otherwise.

This is a very insightful post.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Whats more annoying in this thread are people going on and on and on over old ground.

If you dont like what TheHog is posting either ignore OR take it up with an admin if its that bad.

Get over yourselves ffs

Fair point (if aimed at me!)

Ignoring Hog is not a good move, as much of his output is very valuable.

I never complain to moderators, as I prefer "self-censorship". Unless Hog has a skin the thickness of a rhino's (if I can mix metaphores) then he'll know that certain aspects of his posting style are not well appreciated. He can modify his behaviour or not, and we'll make our own judgements based on his actions. The downside of free speech is that people will sometimes say things you don't like, but so long as laws aren't broken, you just have to "suck it up" (or leave the forum!)

 

[MartinGT]

W&G No just a general moan.

We all have a responsibility of keeping the thread on track and we should be adult enough to self moderate.

@MV, dont you think its another blot on Yates though that the general 'none technical' public (i.e the new British Fans etc) will see and start to think if Yates has been at ANOTHER team that doped? Even if its not on the level of USPS? Just too coincidental if he was yet again "Just the driver"

 

[RownhamHill]

Girona it will be, then. Bradley already lives there, part time. He's just down the road from Cuddles, so maybe he can join them for the odd, marginal gain.
Still, if it's a clean up, PR exercise, Girona will cause just as much speculation as Tenerife.
Looks of dots can be joined in that Spanish city.

One thing that strikes me is whether or not we actually know that Tenerife has been 'dropped' or not. From the info posted on the BBC I'd say it's not clear either way - on one hand a centralised base might imply all training takes place there, but equally it might imply only that most of the training - and all the logistics - are centralised there, but individual (or groups) of riders might branch out to other locations for blocks of specific training as the need arises (much as they do with racing). (To give a, I hope, non-controversial example of how that might work, say Stanndard, Thomas and EBH are sent off to Belgium for a specific block of riding on cobbles two weeks before the classics. (Do riders ever do specific cobble work by the way? Seems odd if they don't))

So, let's say that they launch a base in Nice or Girona, but then in March or April Wiggins, Froome, Porte and a couple of others disappear off to Tenerife for specific altitude training, would this be a) surprising, b) worthy of suspicion?

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

W&G No just a general moan.

We all have a responsibility of keeping the thread on track and we should be adult enough to self moderate.

I actually think this place is good at self-moderation in terms of annoying/offensive material. Being accused of being a "Fanboi" is pretty tame really!

The subject matter may be completely bonkers at times - and this forum is not known elsewhere as "The Asylum" without some justification - but it's discussed in a relatively sensible manner.

I can't say going "off track" particularly concerns me, though Ms Westermeyer may discipline me for such a heretical thought! The off-topic stuff is often very thought-provoking.

 

[RownhamHill]

W&G No just a general moan.

We all have a responsibility of keeping the thread on track and we should be adult enough to self moderate.

@MV, dont you think its another blot on Yates though that the general 'none technical' public (i.e the new British Fans etc) will see and start to think if Yates has been at ANOTHER team that doped? Even if its not on the level of USPS? Just too coincidental if he was yet again "Just the driver"

As a fairly 'new' British fan (got into cycling in 2009, through Cav, Wiggins, and then Contador. . .) I'll try an answer to that if I may.

I don't think anyone who has more than half an interest in this topic believes that Yates retired on 'health grounds'. And I don't mean that in terms of people who come to the clinic, but in terms of general sports fans, who read the newspaper back to front, and are aware that Sky are doing some general clear out.

Obviously he didn't want to admit, and Sky were happy to spare his blushes, but the idea that out of the blue, after probably his most successful season ever in his cycling career, and coincidentally at exactly the time he was asked to sign something saying he'd never had any knowledge of doping, that he just decided to 'retire' isn't credible. Not for anyone who can read really.

But.

I don't think, speaking as a general British sports fan with lots of friends who are also general sports fans, that means people are necessarily suspicious of his time with Sky. Everyone knows that cycling has a dirty past. Everyone assumes that if you've been in the game for thirty years you know about this. But that doesn't necessarily mean you have to 'believe' either that individuals can't change, or that a dirty past is any kind of evidence of a crime now. Obviously some people do believe those things, but others don't.

I also think that if you're not interested enough in what's been going on already to form an opinion on whether Yates doped in his past, then the news that an obscure British team you've never heard of, filled with riders you've never heard of (except for one who joined them a month before they folded, and never raced for them), who operated ten years ago, at a time when doping was everywhere in the sport, and founded/run by a convicted criminal, might have tolerated some riders on the team who they knew doped, is unlikely to have much impact on your life two weeks before Christmas.

Just my opinion though, I haven't checked any of the papers today, so maybe this story has blown up everywhere. . .

 

[MartinGT]

One thing that strikes me is whether or not we actually know that Tenerife has been 'dropped' or not. From the info posted on the BBC I'd say it's not clear either way - on one hand a centralised base might imply all training takes place there, but equally it might imply only that most of the training - and all the logistics - are centralised there, but individual (or groups) of riders might branch out to other locations for blocks of specific training as the need arises (much as they do with racing). (To give a, I hope, non-controversial example of how that might work, say Stanndard, Thomas and EBH are sent off to Belgium for a specific block of riding on cobbles two weeks before the classics. (Do riders ever do specific cobble work by the way? Seems odd if they don't))

So, let's say that they launch a base in Nice or Girona, but then in March or April Wiggins, Froome, Porte and a couple of others disappear off to Tenerife for specific altitude training, would this be a) surprising, b) worthy of suspicion?

BC have a base in Ooudenaarde so I would assume the classics guys would base themseleves there.

What is worrying for me is the very blurry line that exists with BC and Team Sky.

 

[JimmyFingers]

W&G No just a general moan.

We all have a responsibility of keeping the thread on track and we should be adult enough to self moderate.

@MV, dont you think its another blot on Yates though that the general 'none technical' public (i.e the new British Fans etc) will see and start to think if Yates has been at ANOTHER team that doped? Even if its not on the level of USPS? Just too coincidental if he was yet again "Just the driver"

Lets face it: he's retired, and for good reason. Association with Lance was bad enough, now this. He didn't have to retire, he could have got work with other teams but he jumped well before he was pushed and I think he will go to ground as best he can. He hasn't admitted anything, he won't admit anything and he's left the sport to further distance himself. Unless there's a smoking gun Yates should be safe from any censure, as I am sure was his plan.

 

[Tinman]

Repeat post from 10/16/12 in Sean Yates thread, lots of discussion that week in several threads on Yates, McCartney and links with team Sky:

The team? McCartney. The DS's? Sean Yates and Shane Sutton, plus Neil Stephens from mid-season.

And what DeCanio said here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19957246

Looks like below can be updated further then. And slowly the murky past starts to becomes clearer...

A little more digging into a murky past. I'm sure can be confirmed/corrected/supplemented by others. Interesting to see the long term brotherhood between Yates & Weltz (& Craig Geater, mechanic from NZ) and lineage from Lance all the way to Wiggins.

1988: Sean Yates & Johnny Weltz & Stephen Roche riding at Fagor. Weltz later joins Once.
1989: Yates moves to 7 Eleven, tests positive, Kimmage retires from Fagor after joining late 1988, cites "Doping in Peloton"
1991-96: Yates at Motorola, retires from riding in '96. Johnny Weltz also there as assistant sports director in 1995.
1997: Weltz joins USPS as sports director
1998 -2001: Yates joins Linda McCartney as sports director, also there Craig Geater, Matt Decanio, Brad Wiggins joins 2001. Team set up and run by Julian Clark, folded Jan 2001
2001: Yates joins Team iNova, then CSC Tiscali at invitation of Riis. Weltz and Geater also at CSC.
2004: Weltz moves to Discovery
2005: Yates joins Discovery at invitation of Lance. Geater also joins as Lance's mechanic.
2006: Weltz joins TIAA-Cref, which later becomes Garmin Sharp
2008: Yates joins Astana.
2009: Geater joins Astana, Yates joins Sky, Wiggins at Garmin (with Weltz).

 

[Stingray34]

Rule Britannia...

Face it, Wiggins idolators, the boy's a massive doper. You know it and to deny it is to sound like a Lance fanboy circa 2003. Difference is, times have changed, and this git's castle will be stormed sooner rather than later.

Meanwhile Noel effing Gallagher and Paul Weller sing the boy's praises, calling him 'the man.' HA! as if these two b'stards don't hate every cyclist they see and wish they could run off the road in their BMW 4WDs in Manchester and Surrey, respectively.

Wake up and smell the pale ale...

Carry on tub-thumpin...

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Repeat post from 10/16/12 in Sean Yates thread, lots of discussion that week in several threads on Yates, McCartney and links with team Sky:



Looks like below can be updated further then. And slowly the murky past starts to becomes clearer...

I'm not sure the "lineage" from Lance to Wiggins shows anything other than that pro cycling is a very incestuous business. In any small profession, the chance of being more than three steps removed from anyone is quite low.

There was a jokey article a few years ago concerning actors' "Bacon Number". This was the number of steps one had to go through until you reached a film in which the prolific Kevin Bacon acted.

For example, Tom Hanks has a Bacon Number of 1, as he was in Apollo 13 with KB.

Kate Winslett has a Bacon Number of 2, as she was in Titanic with Bill Paxton, who was in Apollo 13 with KB.

The interesting thing is that there is no film actor ever, even back to Rudolph Valentino, including one-line roles, who has a Bacon Number greater than 6. (Many hours have been spent trying to disprove this claim, apparently!)

So, by the same sort of logic, I'd be surprised if anyone's "Armstorng Number" is very high.

Sorry for going off-topic, but I do like "Bacon Numbers".

 

[Tinman]

I'm not sure the "lineage" from Lance to Wiggins shows anything other than that pro cycling is a very incestuous business. In any small profession, the chance of being more than three steps removed from anyone is quite low.

Which makes the "I am so surprised to hear he/she was doping then" argument such a joke. Particularly coming after so much heaped praise. Ie. Wiggins re Armstrong. But can be said about many of the incestuous, indeed.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Which makes the "I am so surprised to hear he/she was doping then" argument such a joke.

Indeed. But there's a game being played, and the rules currently require you to claim to be surprised if you want to carry on playing. I doubt anyone claiming surprise actually thinks anyone believes them.

 

[Catwhoorg]

BC have a base in Ooudenaarde so I would assume the classics guys would base themseleves there.

What is worrying for me is the very blurry line that exists with BC and Team Sky.

There is no blurry line.

BC is one of the stakeholders/owners of the team.

That has been very clear from 2009

 

[MartinGT]

Rule Britannia...

Face it, Wiggins idolators, the boy's a massive doper. You know it and to deny it is to sound like a Lance fanboy circa 2003. Difference is, times have changed, and this git's castle will be stormed sooner rather than later.

Meanwhile Noel effing Gallagher and Paul Weller sing the boy's praises, calling him 'the man.' HA! as if these two b'stards don't hate every cyclist they see and wish they could run off the road in their BMW 4WDs in Manchester and Surrey, respectively.

Wake up and smell the pale ale...

Carry on tub-thumpin...

I like the cut of your jib man

 

[Stingray34]

I like the cut of your jib man

Thank you, fact is: I'm sexy as hell.

 

[Chaddy]

Rule Britannia...

Face it, Wiggins idolators, the boy's a massive doper. You know it and to deny it is to sound like a Lance fanboy circa 2003. Difference is, times have changed, and this git's castle will be stormed sooner rather than later.

Meanwhile Noel effing Gallagher and Paul Weller sing the boy's praises, calling him 'the man.' HA! as if these two b'stards don't hate every cyclist they see and wish they could run off the road in their BMW 4WDs in Manchester and Surrey, respectively.

Wake up and smell the pale ale...

Carry on tub-thumpin...

Noel doesn't drive.

 

[Stingray34]

Noel doesn't drive.

I meant his chauffeur, Patrick McNee

Gonna start a revolution from my benz

 

[ebandit]

breaking.............

Rule Britannia...

Face it, Wiggins idolators, the boy's a massive doper.

breaking news...........or have you just made it up?