Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[martinvickers]

Impartiality went out the window in this sport in relation to doping a long long time ago.

Sky are not impartial, Wiggins is not impartial. Why expect a fan of the sport to be when it comes to Sky who declared a clean tranparent team then ignored their own statements?

Defending Sky with all their PR BS is making their fans on here look like minions.

And attacking Sky with all their own PR BS makes the 'hater's look like minions.

And that's the point - once you say impartiality - i.e. fairness - doesn't matter, you're just part of the problem. Because to be partial is to essentially to be dishonest in a cause - and if you're happy to be dishonest in a cause, why should i believe anything you say, or give it any credence?

 

[martinvickers]

Team Sky and their leaders, Brailsford and Wiggins, deserve every bit of anti doping scrutiny coming their way. After their self proclaimed strong anti-doping stance and the farce that that has become, and after the 2012 performances in the Dauphine and TdF. Contrary to Wiggins' routine statements, you cant have the high profile job, win the high profile races and make the high profile bucks but not want to be part of the media circus and anti-doping context that the media and fans now require. It comes with the territory and that includes serious scrutiny and open and truthful dialogue.

Dear Wiggo is the real deal of contributors on the forum here. Sharp mind, sharp wit, tenacious, calls it as he sees it, and contributes a considerable amount of original thinking and analysis. More backbone and action orientation than most posters here. Nothing nationalistic about the guy at all. As critical of Rogers and Australian cycling administration as he is of Sky and Wiggins. Off the board he is active in coaching young up and coming cyclists.

We need more Dear Wiggo's here, maybe a Dear Rodriguez, Dear Contador, Dear Gilbert, and many other Dears. We could certainly do with less of many others here, particularly those who like to polarize any scrutiny as nationalistic fervor.

Self-praise is no recommendation, tinman.

One 'cynic' backsplapping another is no more impressive than one 'fanboy' bacslapping another. Why don't we stick to the story, and let people make up their own minds on whose credible?

 

[Tinman]

I suppose my point is, it's not important, or necessary to always bring things down to some silly nationalistic p!ssing match.

Big difference between nationalistic p!ssing match and self deprecating humor, which is a big part of Australian culture. Being able to take the p!ss out of oneself goes right back to coming off the boats as equals (ie. all convicts) and working the new territory with equal chances for a new (clean!) future.

 

[Tinman]

Self-praise is no recommendation, tinman.

One 'cynic' backsplapping another is no more impressive than one 'fanboy' bacslapping another. Why don't we stick to the story, and let people make up their own minds on whose credible?

Here you go again Vicker. Cannot help but judge and personalize your criticisms.

But you can have the last word again. Go on then.

 

[martinvickers]

Big difference between nationalistic p!ssing match and self deprecating humor, which is a big part of Australian culture.

It's a big part of Irish, British, Jewish and Canadian humour too - but i'm pretty sure if I said something along the line of "sure what do i know, I'm only a "spud-eater", someone would quickly tell me not to be such a victim.

Being able to take the p!ss out of oneself goes right back to coming off the boats as equals (ie. all convicts) and working the new territory with equal chances for a new (clean!) future.

So is long-poppy cutting, interestingly enough.

But, honestly, neither is unique to Australia, I promise you.

 

[martinvickers]

Here you go again Vicker. Cannot help but judge and personalize your criticisms.

But you can have the last word again. Go on then.

I may, i may not. Not your decision to make, Tinny, sadly.

And i think you'll find the point i made was of universal application, and expressed more broadly than just you.

So if you'd mind awfully, try and talk about the subjects at hand, and keep the pap psychology for someone interested in it, cheers.

 

[RownhamHill]

No Hog. It hasn't been confirmed.
I find it ironic that suddenly you believe in the word of Sky.
That's a first!
The BBC article, talks about a more Central European base in the future, as opposed to Manchester.
Possibly, this means they will no longer have a Tenerife train camp, but it by no means confirms this as fact.
It's just as easy to fly to Tenerife from Girona, as it is from Manchester.

Besides, I thought Tenerife was used by a "select group" of riders seeking "specialist" training.
Nothing to say that won't continue, while the rest use this central base.
Will it be even up and running in time for 2013?


Once again you are getting ahead of the truth and trying to force others to follow suit.

Slow down. All will be revealed in the new year.

If they're not going to Tenerife, it seems no one has managed to give the memo to Geraint Thomas, or Sky Sports for that matter:

Thomas hopes to be part of a Tour-winning team.

"The Tour is something I want to go and do, help the boys out there and try to defend that title," he said.

His race schedule is all about peaking for July, with time allowed for the training camps in Tenerife which honed Wiggins' preparations.

http://www1.skysports.com/cycling/news/15264/8313460/

 

[Stingray34]

Back on Topic

So, what about that Brad Wiggins, eh?

Geewillikins, what a sexy beast! The geezer is just so hard and cool and clean.

He's so bello in selle those Italians are gonna swoon at the Giro!

 

[JimmyFingers]

Welcome.

BUT

I this just reinforces me belief of the Sky fans I am afriad.

Unless, you would like to show us your findings?

She did say that she is voicing an opinion, not a scientific paper, and she qualified that opinion by giving everyone here enough ammunition to completely dismiss it, which is kind of gutsy.

Opinions are free to have and free to express

 

[del1962]

If they're not going to Tenerife, it seems no one has managed to give the memo to Geraint Thomas, or Sky Sports for that matter:

Thomas hopes to be part of a Tour-winning team.

"The Tour is something I want to go and do, help the boys out there and try to defend that title," he said.

His race schedule is all about peaking for July, with time allowed for the training camps in Tenerife which honed Wiggins' preparations.

http://www1.skysports.com/cycling/news/15264/8313460/

Thanks for the info, I always thought it was a bit premature people insinuating Sky would not use Tenerife from the desire to set up a european base.

 

[coinneach]

Thanks for the info, I always thought it was a bit premature people insinuating Sky would not use Tenerife from the desire to set up a european base.

And then saying what Sky are doing is confusing, when its clinic regulars who are way ahead of reality who see the world as confusing.

For the record IF Sky didn't use Tenerife in '13 after the season they had in '12, I would find it confusing.

And on the subject of Tenerife, is it not true that the whole team went there this year, not just a few select riders, as has been suggested on earlier posts?
Did I hear (Eurosport commentary) that J T Locke also went there with them, even though he wasn't on Sky books at the time?

 

[maltiv]

And on the subject of Tenerife, is it not true that the whole team went there this year, not just a few select riders, as has been suggested on earlier posts?
Did I hear (Eurosport commentary) that J T Locke also went there with them, even though he wasn't on Sky books at the time?

Just a few riders, yes. Sioutsov, Knees, Wiggins, Rogers, Froome and Porte. So everyone from the TDF team except from EBH (who didn't want to go) and Cav/Eisel, who aren't exactly climbers anyway.

 

[thehog]

Just a few riders, yes. Sioutsov, Knees, Wiggins, Rogers, Froome and Porte. So everyone from the TDF team except from EBH (who didn't want to go) and Cav/Eisel, who aren't exactly climbers anyway.

Personally, from my own opinion, I can’t see Sky going back to Tenerife. I agree with Jimmy. There’s too much suspicion with the venue. Sky are looking for a new base and will opt to go elsewhere.

Also without Yates and Rogers gaming the system I think we’ll see are more humble Sky working in the confines of the rules of cycling.

 

[Gloin22]

Personally, from my own opinion, I can’t see Sky going back to Tenerife. I agree with Jimmy. There’s too much suspicion with the venue. Sky are looking for a new base and will opt to go elsewhere.

Also without Yates and Rogers gaming the system I think we’ll see are more humble Sky working in the confines of the rules of cycling.

So because Rogers moved they'll be cleaner now ?

 

[thehog]

So because Rogers moved they'll be cleaner now ?

Personally I hope so. I don’t want to see another year like 2012. Anti-doping took a backward step. It was 2002 all over again. Watching Froome was like watching Rasmussen at his worst.

I’m hoping a team like Sky with vast resources can lead the way in being clean. I like in hope but I won’t hold my breath. If DB is worth the words he says then we’ll see a much different Sky in 2013.

Sky have a massive responsibility to cycling. If they stain the sport after everything that occurred with the USADA then they should not only cut from the sport but criminally charged.

 

[Pentacycle]

Personally I hope so. I don’t want to see another year like 2012. Anti-doping took a backward step. It was 2002 all over again. Watch Froome was like watching Rasmussen at his worst.

I’m hoping a team like Sky with vast resources can lead the way in being clean. I like in hope but I won’t hold my breath. If DB is worth the words he says then we’ll see a much different Sky in 2013.

Sky have a massive reasonability to cycling. If they stain the sport after everything that occurred with the USADA then they should not only cut from the sport but criminally charged.

You can't change cycling when you're not one of the top teams, so it's better to keep up appearances the following years to make the cycling audience believe in clean racing on the highest level. Also if Sky rides notably worse than last year, it will only damage cycling.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Personally, from my own opinion, I can’t see Sky going back to Tenerife. I agree with Jimmy. There’s too much suspicion with the venue. Sky are looking for a new base and will opt to go elsewhere.

Also without Yates and Rogers gaming the system I think we’ll see are more humble Sky working in the confines of the rules of cycling.

Hang on, I merely ventured that they if they drop the venue it would be due to the stigma of the venue. I don't think they necessarily should. In fact earlier in this thread or the Tenerife thread I feel the venue is a moot point really, beyond those with an agenda

 

[thehog]

Hang on, I merely ventured that they if they drop the venue it would be due to the stigma of the venue. I don't think they necessarily should. In fact earlier in this thread or the Tenerife thread I feel the venue is a moot point really, beyond those with an agenda

Thanks for the clarification Jimmy.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Thanks for the clarification Jimmy.

Always happy to help

 

[thehog]

Always happy to help

I'm glad we agree.

 

[thehog]

Always happy to help

The PK intreview is excellent. Some parts touch on Sky;

MS: Do you then feel even more aggrieved that much the media failed on the job of reporting on doping for a decade and more?

PK: And are still failing -- let's be honest with this. They're still failing. There were some legitimate questions that needed to be asked of Sky this year, and they weren't asked. It's the same sort of problem with Sky we had with US Postal: when we get a hero, we are very reluctant to put the questions we put to someone else when it's someone else's country when it's one of our own. That's still valid today.

MS: What were the specific questions that should have been put more forcefully?

PK: It's a legitimate question to ask how the team that set up its stall by saying that there would be no doctors working from within the sport; all the doctors would be from outside cycling. So when they set out their goals and principles in 2009, and they made this one of the cornerstones of what they were about, and then suddenly, it emerges that they've employed Geert Leinders, and he's been working with them since 2010 -- and he is not just a doctor from within the sport, but a doctor who's been very closely associated with a doping program at Rabobank ... I think it's a legitimate question to ask how that happened, who made that decision?

That is a question that has not actually been addressed yet: who made the decision to hire Geert Leinders? What happened to the principles that we were given in 2009?

The question I get asked nine times out of ten is "do you believe Bradley [Wiggins is clean]?" And my answer is, because of that, "I don't know." I look at that and I actually don't know. And this is something that could have been avoided; this is a mess of their own making. Had they stuck to their principles, all those fine principles of 2009 they sold us with -- of transparency, about doctors, and how they are going to go about things -- there would not be any questions now. Paul Kimmage would not be here saying "I don't know"; he'd be saying, "Yeah, you know, I think I can buy that. Definitely."

And look what's happened since: they've lost three directeurs, four directeurs now? Four key members of that Tour de France team will not be with them next year. You're looking at that and wondering if that's grounds that add to the question [about Bradley Wiggins]. It's difficult.

MS: Was it just a question of a problem with the doctor they hired, or did they let the initial high principles slip when they took on people who've subsequently declined to sign the document [the doping-free career declaration] they've been asked to sign in the last few months?

PK: It wasn't just Leinders, no, definitely not. You think back to the first year and when the team was launched, and it was "we're not hiring David Millar because we can't have any association with doping." You think of the hypocrisy, then, of hiring the guys that they did -- because they knew. Don't tell me they didn't know that these guys had had contact with doping when they hired them. They knew that.

The bottom line -- and I wrote this about [David] Brailsford -- I asked him: "Is there a difference between doing the right thing or being seen to do the right thing?" And with Brailsford, in my view, it's all about being seen to do the right thing.

http://nyvelocity.com/content/features/2012/kimmageseaton

 

[martinvickers]

The PK intreview is excellent. Some parts touch on Sky;



http://nyvelocity.com/content/features/2012/kimmageseaton

There's an open thread on the whole article.

 

[Wiggo Warrior]

I have a science background and use both science and intuition.

You're wrong. But welcome anyway.

At 1 post a second, you'd be reading non-stop for 3 hours to read all posts in this thread. Let alone reading them properly, or following links. Make it 3 seconds and that's 9 hours reading.

If, on the other hand, you did read all the posts, and still reached your "reasoned" decision, kudos to you. But it changes nothing, for anyone. It reinforces your pals in Sky lovers land, and will be dismissed, as you already realised, by the anti-doping crowd, most of whom have watched cycling since long before Brad managed to ride worth a damn on the road.

I may well be wrong of course, and many thanks for the welcome.

I think it actually took me close to a month of evenings and weekends each time including far too many 2:00 am sessions for comfort and this was not limited to reading just this thread and the links. I had a lot of context reading to do on non-Sky topics before I was comfortable with my decision at all.

I am not trying to change anyone's mind about what they believe or not, this story is still being written unlike the Postal affair, and if something later tweaks my BS filter I will be back to join the mud-slinging, until then I am looking forward to my first full season as a cycling fan.

I will also be continuing to bring myself up to speed with earlier era's and can see a fair amount of DVD buying in my future.

 

[Wiggo Warrior]

Better do some research on the sport. To help you it was not invented in Manchester by TeamGB/Sky.

Dopeology.org is a start if you find the clinic a bit difficult to work through.

1. Yes I know.

2. I have visited Dopeology over the last couple of months along with many other sites. There is no problem with the clinic even in this thread other than people getting heated occasionally, which isn't my style, and as I said I think the mods do a great job of weeding (or is it pruning).

 

[thehog]

1. Yes I know.

2. I have visited Dopeology over the last couple of months along with many other sites. There is no problem with the clinic even in this thread other than people getting heated occasionally, which isn't my style, and as I said I think the mods do a great job of weeding (or is it pruning).

I feel a troll attempt building. Already praising the mods!