Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[thehog]

Marginal gains AG2R style: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g_H8htT-GM&sns=em

 

[Cycle Chic]

Exactly +1.

No steady rise just boom... Best in the mountains!!
Next year will prove telling if Froome starts to take control then questions need to be asked.

he,s already taken control....but no-one is asking any questions...where's Walsh ??

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The same Soler who had 2 full European seasons under his belt by the start of 2008, not to mention being more than 2 years older? Add in that Froome's 2007 season was predominantly in SA & other non-European races, and it's evident that you're comparing two riders at different stages if their development and, more significantly, ones who'd have been viewed differently by their team.

The start of 2008 is irrelevant considering they were comparing Soler's 2007 Tour to Froome's 2008 to demonstrate that Soler showed more promise.

Froome never showed promise that would say he would be a GT contender. He showed promise that he could be a pretty useful rider and a worthwhile top field domestique... but no performance that he put in prior to stage 9 of the 2011 Vuelta a España indicated that he could stand on the podium of a GT. All the other rags to riches tales you could tell have better results to point to. Ezequiel Mosquera picked up several top 10s at Spanish mountainous stage races and the Volta a Portugal, the longest stage race in Europe outside of the GTs; Bernhard Kohl stood on the podium of the Dauphiné in 2006 and in the top 5 of his home Tour; Andriy Kashechkin had won the Sachsen-Tour and finished in the top 20 of the Tour de France; even Santiago Pérez had been 4th at Romandie and had a few top 10s in Spanish short stage races.

The only times Froome had even finished in the top 10 on mountain stages before that was an early 3rd on Mont Faron in the Tour Méd, which was pretty impressive but also in February so hard to find representative, a 9th in a mountain stage of the Brixia Tour against a mediocre field, and an 8th on an uphill sprint in Leysin in the Tour de Romandie.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

he,s already taken control....but no-one is asking any questions...where's Walsh ??

Walsh is behind the curve.
Not a front runner.

 

[MatParker117]

HEre's what Julich had to say about Froome:

“I didn’t bring Chris to the team. They knew about his talent and they had to convince me about his talent. Then working with Chris he definitely convinced me pretty quickly. There was no magic sprinkle dust with getting him to ride better. It was basically working a little bit on his confidence and the way he rode the races because he has already training really well. You can sit back now and just shake your head and say ‘wow. I didn’t see that coming!’”

 

[Joachim]

Although, natural talent apart, they were wary of his inexperience on the road, which is why they didn't let him take the leadership of the Vuelta or the Tour. He was an unknown quantity. They were vindicated in this by his behaviour in the Tour when he attacked against clear team orders, given before and during the stage. He risked taking Nibali with him, and eating into Wiggins lead.

Now they know he is a better climber than Wiggins, but they also know he hasn't got tactical nous.

 

[will10]

Although, natural talent apart, they were wary of his inexperience on the road, which is why they didn't let him take the leadership of the Vuelta or the Tour. He was an unknown quantity. They were vindicated in this by his behaviour in the Tour when he attacked against clear team orders, given before and during the stage. He risked taking Nibali with him, and eating into Wiggins lead.

Now they know he is a better climber than Wiggins, but they also know he hasn't got tactical nous.

Might also be why they decided he wasn't worth a contract extension. Here we have an incredibly talented British rider, on a British team with the aim of winning the Tour with a British rider within 5 years.... nah, let's let him go.

At the Vuelta in 2011, they were as surprised as the rest of us.

 

[BroDeal]

Although, natural talent apart, they were wary of his inexperience on the road, which is why they didn't let him take the leadership of the Vuelta or the Tour. He was an unknown quantity.

He was not an unknown quantity. His lack of talent had been on display for years, so much so that he was struggling to find another contract.

That "WTF" comment from Julich says it all. Riders capable of riding at that level naturally do not surprise people with a sudden transformation. Their class is evident early on.

 

[Joachim]

Years?

He only went pro with a minor SA outfit in 07.

He had to come to Europe to get anywhere. Barlo 08-september 10.

It was Rod Ellingworth in 08 that spotted potential.

 

[BroDeal]

Years?

He only went pro with a minor SA outfit in 07.

He had to come to Europe to get anywhere. Barlo 08-september 10.

It was Rod Ellingworth in 08 that spotted potential.

Sky was only willing to risk signing him to a one year contract in 2010. If the people at Sky had any faith whatsoever that Froome had real potential then they would have locked him into a multi-year contract. Instead they waited until his asking price SKYrocketed after the Vuelta. That says it all really. The people at Sky were just as surprised as everyone else.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Are we seriously still trying to argue that Froome's transformation wasn't a shock?

The guy had next to no results to speak of for two and a half years leading up to that Vuelta, and the results were getting fewer and further between as well. Though Garmin and Lampre have mentioned that they were considering giving him contract offers before that transformation, it would likely have not been on anything other than your basic low-level domestique wage, because he hadn't shown that he could be more.

It's not like he was a conspicuously bad rider or anything... he just wasn't conspicuous at all. The previous time he'd entered a GT he was thrown out two stages from the end for drafting and holding onto bikes after being dropped by the grupetto - but then it's hardly representative as he'd crashed quite heavily then. But if we're going to consider Froome's results from 2008-9 as justifying his transformation in August 2011, then there are a hell of a lot of guys out there who should be winning GTs any time soon. Arkaitz Durán, for example, Fabio Taborre, etc etc. And while he had shown some promising ITTs (the 14th in the 2008 Tour ITT and 17th in the 2009 Worlds), there was nothing to prepare us for blasting the likes of Cancellara. Here are the sum total of Chris Froome's ITT top 10s.

2007:
Giro del Capo ITT - 5th
B World Championships - 2nd

He was beaten by a Chinese no-name in the B Worlds, and at the Worlds U23 ITT he was a minute and a half down on a Marcel Kittel that is three years younger than him.

2008:
7th, Giro del Capo MTT (28" slower than the previous year, same route)
4th, Volta a Santarem ITT
5th, Vuelta a Asturias ITT
10th, Herald Sun Tour ITT
These are moderately promising, as are his Tour ITTs (especially the latter which showed good recovery). However, the best results are hard to gauge as they came against fields which were relatively weak, however Santarem had a couple of top teams, and Asturias was the notorious LA-MSS edition with many doping issues.

2009:
none. In fact, he barely made the top 30 in any ITT in 2009.

2010:
2nd, British nationals
5th, Commonwealth Games (over 2 mins down on Millar, and 1'25 down on Dowsett)
Also, 2010 is notable for some absolutely chronic prologues, but it does seem that the longer a TT is the more competitive Froome can be. This is also where the bilharzia apparently started to take effect as well - having been diagnosed at the end of the season but probably having been there for a while beforehand.

2011:
9th, Vuelta a Castilla y León ITT (a simple out and back power course, Froome was nonetheless outdone by not one but 2 EPM-UNE riders, and also Igor Antón)
9th, Tour de Suisse ITT (this is the one sign, the only sign that I can see, of the ITT prominence to come. Being only 1'02" down on Cancellara over 32km)
2nd, Vuelta ITT (suddenly, this guy is 23" up on Wiggins and 28" up on Cancellara. Other guys who were beating him at Suisse are now way off him, like Fuglsang and Oliveira)
4th, Beijing ITT

2012:
6th, Dauphiné ITT (still a minute and a half off Wiggins, and a minute off Martin, but after having been chronic all season until that point it is notable)
2nd, Tour 1st ITT (comfortably off Wiggins but comfortably ahead of Cancellara; Martin's time here is an outlier so can't really be considered representative)
2nd, Tour 2nd ITT (again comfortably off Wiggins but more than 30" ahead of anybody else)
3rd, Olympics (Martin back on form here, Cancellara of course injured so an outlier. Nevertheless, a big gap from him to 4th)
3rd, Vuelta ITT (beaten by Kessiakoff's surprising time and Contador, but 30" ahead of anyone else).

It's not just his climbing that leapt in level very quickly. He made massive improvements in all facets of the physical nature of the sport very quickly. He's still tactically seemingly quite naïve, not just as a helper but as a leader (note his being blown away from the top guys on Ancares, catching up to them riding his own pace, then immediately attacking them and blowing up).

 

[Joachim]

I agree there's a transformation and I'm not ruling out anything suspicious.

The thing is, and this will sound strange, I'm not convinced that dope accounts for such a big improvement.

 

[Bexon30]

I agree there's a transformation and I'm not ruling out anything suspicious.

The thing is, and this will sound strange, I'm not convinced that dope accounts for such a big improvement.

The thing is marginal gains only account for a insignificant improvement so what gives...? If its not dope then what does account for such a big improvement?

 

[pmcg76]

The same Soler who had 2 full European seasons under his belt by the start of 2008, not to mention being more than 2 years older? Add in that Froome's 2007 season was predominantly in SA & other non-European races, and it's evident that you're comparing two riders at different stages if their development and, more significantly, ones who'd have been viewed differently by their team.

As Libertine has already pointed out, I was comparing Soler of 2007 to Froome of 2008. Soler has one season of European racing in his belt before 2007, was one year older than Froome at that stage. Not years ahead in his development as you are trying to make out unless you think one season is the difference between 11th(+KOM) and 84th in your debut Tour. All the other factors are the same.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Sky was only willing to risk signing him to a one year contract in 2010. If the people at Sky had any faith whatsoever that Froome had real potential then they would have locked him into a multi-year contract. Instead they waited until his asking price SKYrocketed after the Vuelta. That says it all really. The people at Sky were just as surprised as everyone else.

EXACTLY the same phenomenon with Brad Wiggins, pre and post 2009. Add this to Froome's change in value post Vuelta, and this lack of "attention to detail" has lost them ~$3M+ in salaries in the space of 2 contracts.

 

[The Hitch]

Yeh he did a 51'12" in 2008, should be sub-40' this year.

The Tour will be won decided by the Alpe stage. Theyll soft pedal up both ascents with Voeckler winning from a breakaway doing the second ascent in over 45 minutes after soloing for 40k, and everyone will point to this poor time as evidence cycling is clean now.

 

[D-Queued]

The Tour will be won decided by the Alpe stage. Theyll soft pedal up both ascents with Voeckler winning from a breakaway doing the second ascent in over 45 minutes after soloing for 40k, and everyone will point to this poor time as evidence cycling is clean now.

Fact is always stranger than fiction. Careful what you propose, the reality could be even more bizarre.

Dave.

 

[ferryman]

Fact is always stranger than fiction. Careful what you propose, the reality could be even more bizarre.

Dave.

Yep. Like sub 40 up the Alpe 2nd time up

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Kimmage is still unconvinced.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Someone needs to school Kimmage up on marginal gains, etc.

 

[sniper]

the full interview in german.
http://m.faz.net/aktuell/sport/mehr...h-ich-war-ein-paria-im-radsport-12010427.html

Journo: "Is there still doping in the TdF?"
Kimmage: "there are alarming parallels between Lance and Wiggins. Lance > Ferrari; Wiggins > Leinders; Lance > Tenerife; Wiggins > Tenerife; USPS > 3-week-team-dominance without even a single off-day; Sky > idem ditto. That's not logical. I don't know anybody who found this to be a convincing Tour victory."

this bit is not in the CN summary:

journo: "don't you also find the thinness of the Sky riders to be suspicious"?
Kimmage: "When Wiggins and Froome became 1st and 3rd in the Olympics, Cadel Evans wrote on twitter that these skinny guys have completely changed time trialling this year. That's the observation of a rider. They [Froome/Wiggins] are incredibly skinny and incredibly strong".

I wonder will the English newspapers ignore Kimmage?
Anyway, +1 to CN for putting this on the front page with an appropriate title.

 

[maltiv]

Thought it was quite funny that in the rider profiles on Team Sky, only one rider named Armstrong as a childhood hero (a couple of years ago, I guess half of them would have named him!). Brailsford certainly doesn't want them to go around idolizing Armstrong anymore. Seems like JTL didn't get the memo though...

 

[sniper]

Someone needs to school Kimmage up on marginal gains, etc.

May I propose a Millar/JV masterclass?

Millar: Sky won the Tour clean and they have become another flag-bearer for the future. But they're getting vilified because their zero-tolerance policy has been questioned. Yet they were still clean. They never doped.

Vaughters:
The former US Postal rider also took the opportunity afterwards to stress his total belief that his former Garmin rider Bradley Wiggins won the 2012 Tour riding clean.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Why is Kimmage even being asked these questions? Seems to me the feeling of disquiet / unrest is growing.

 

[Benotti69]

May I propose a Millar/JV masterclass?

Masterclass is the new omerta or speaking out both sides of their mouths.

I am waiting for Walsh to do an Armstrong on Wiggins*

*When Walsh found out Armstrong was working with Ferarri he started to really call him out. Well it is time that Walsh called out Wiggins/Sky for working with Leinders.