Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[thehog]

''Training is copying. Toni Rominger prospered greatly last year at a high age, partly due to altitude training in in Colorado. So Breuking and Zülle will head that way in july. [...] Hennie Kuiper: ''Italians are ahead of their time. They always were. [...] That whole EPO-story is blown out of proportion. Even if it was used, why would only Italians do it, while you can acquire it easily in Switserland?''

''There is no secret, and it isn't a wonder'' says Eddy Merckx. [...] France, Belgium and the Netherlands are years behind [in organisation]. That already was the case in my time.''

http://www.trouw.nl/tr/nl/5009/Arch...ziet-zijn-carriere-langzaam-doodbloeden.dhtml

Article a couple of days after one of the darkest days of our sport, the Fleche Wallone where Gewiss dominated the entire podium. Almost 20 years later, but the excuses are the same. Altitude training. More professional, better organised. No doping of course, it's doubtfull that's even used. Most Sky fans probably started watching cycling 2 or 3 years ago. But for the people following this sport longer, it's not hard to find out why we don't believe the same lies told by a different team.

Yes the doping has stopped. The lying hasn't...

 

[T-Nielsen]

Do any of you guys/girls ever comment on SkySports cycling stories ?

I never seem to get mine posted by the moderater. Not even the ones just hinting at Sky not being normal. Perhaps I should stop calling them Skyborgs.

Oh well. I did not buy Banesto, I did not buy Postal and I do not buy this either. But I am more used to it now.

 

[maxmartin]

''Training is copying. Toni Rominger prospered greatly last year at a high age, partly due to altitude training in in Colorado. So Breuking and Zülle will head that way in july. [...] Hennie Kuiper: ''Italians are ahead of their time. They always were. [...] That whole EPO-story is blown out of proportion. Even if it was used, why would only Italians do it, while you can acquire it easily in Switserland?''

''There is no secret, and it isn't a wonder'' says Eddy Merckx. [...] France, Belgium and the Netherlands are years behind [in organisation]. That already was the case in my time.''

http://www.trouw.nl/tr/nl/5009/Arch...ziet-zijn-carriere-langzaam-doodbloeden.dhtml

Article a couple of days after one of the darkest days of our sport, the Fleche Wallone where Gewiss dominated the entire podium. Almost 20 years later, but the excuses are the same. Altitude training. More professional, better organised. No doping of course, it's doubtfull that's even used. Most Sky fans probably started watching cycling 2 or 3 years ago. But for the people following this sport longer, it's not hard to find out why we don't believe the same lies told by a different team.

yep almost all the SKY fan boys joined the forum recently

 

[pmcg76]

''Training is copying. Toni Rominger prospered greatly last year at a high age, partly due to altitude training in in Colorado. So Breuking and Zülle will head that way in july. [...] Hennie Kuiper: ''Italians are ahead of their time. They always were. [...] That whole EPO-story is blown out of proportion. Even if it was used, why would only Italians do it, while you can acquire it easily in Switserland?''

''There is no secret, and it isn't a wonder'' says Eddy Merckx. [...] France, Belgium and the Netherlands are years behind [in organisation]. That already was the case in my time.''

http://www.trouw.nl/tr/nl/5009/Arch...ziet-zijn-carriere-langzaam-doodbloeden.dhtml

Article a couple of days after one of the darkest days of our sport, the Fleche Wallone where Gewiss dominated the entire podium. Almost 20 years later, but the excuses are the same. Altitude training. More professional, better organised. No doping of course, it's doubtfull that's even used. Most Sky fans probably started watching cycling 2 or 3 years ago. But for the people following this sport longer, it's not hard to find out why we don't believe the same lies told by a different team.

This is exactly what makes me so uneasy about SKY dominating the sport. According to SKY PR, it's all about the innovations they have made but that is exactly the lines that were thrown about at the beginning of the EPO era, better training, more professional etc. Of course these things can make a difference but how much of a difference??

I got into pro cycling in 89/90 and as there was no internet, I devoured every cycling magazine I could get like Winning magazine and then Cycle Sport when it arrived in 93. Reading about guys like Argentin, Rominger, Furlan, Riis, Chiappucci who all suddenly underwent jumps in their career's, it was all about the training. As soon as someone moved to Italy they were raving about how much more professionally they trained etc and this was following a relatively fallow period for Italian cycling in the 80s.

Who remembers the former Soviet rider Piotr Ugrumov who turned pro in his late 20s with the Alfa Lum team(due to Soviet ban on their athletes becoming pros) and then rode for SEUR in Spain, a decent rider who could Top 10 in a GT, then he moves to the Mecair team(Argentin and Ferrari) and BOOM, on the podium in the 93 Giro and 94 Tour in his mid 30s, all down to the amazing professionalism of the Italians

SKY are claiming they have somehow revolutionized pro cycling but looking at the jumps in the career's of guys like Wiggins, Froome, Porte, Rogers etc, it's hard not to look back at what was happening 20 years ago and not see the similarities and therefore be suspicious or weary.

 

[maxmartin]

SKY are claiming they have somehow revolutionized pro cycling but looking at the jumps in the career's of guys like Wiggins, Froome, Porte, Rogers etc, it's hard not to look back at what was happening 20 years ago and not see the similarities and therefore be suspicious or weary.

But if you ask SKY how exactly do you revolutionize the sports? They will tell you it is a secret.

Only thing they showed so advanced is warm down and power meter on the bike, which LA used already 10 years ago. LMAF

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Lanark that is a great quote. The patterns are so obvious, imo.

Here's another pattern I am noticing recently:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/vuelta-ciclista-al-pais-vasco-2013/stage-3/results

Team Sky has just six riders at the Vuelta al Pais Vasco after Ian Boswell and Joshua Edmondson did not start due to illness.

There was a big discussion on cortisol and its release into the body and how getting sick is part and parcel of long GT races and long seasons. But these guys are getting sick before one day races, or the first couple of days of a multi-stage race.

Not necessarily doping-related, no.

But a big fuss was made of the team teaching their riders how to wash their hands properly (attention to detail), as well has hiring someone good with saddle sores, back in the day post-death of soigneur. When a bunch of Sky riders withdrew from the Vuelta in the first few days.

So it's April.

Short races.

And they're getting sick.

While other team members are floating to the top as the cream of the pro peloton.

 

[mattghg]

The clinic is a learning school

To the Sky critics:

Their wisdom amounts to the splendid principle that basically everything is the same.

 

[The Hitch]

Then presumably you'll believe no lies told by any team or riders that are winning? I have no problem with that, everyone is dirty

It's not a lie. They are training harder. They are training twice as hard as they did before and twice as hard as any clean athlete. Because to quote victor conte almost all the big drugs are recovery drugs that are used with training. So when an athlete not using say epo or testostrone or cortisone his body can do so many hours training. An athlete who is using those drugs will be able to go a few hours longer harder stronger. So he definately is training harder. And as far as he is concerned that's why he is better now. No lie in his eyes.

 

[armchairclimber]

Cod Liver Oil
Garlic
Nitrate rich foods

I wonder what the accumulated advantage of using these nutrients scientifically might be to SKY. Is it doping?

 

[User Guide]

Lanark that is a great quote. The patterns are so obvious, imo.

Here's another pattern I am noticing recently:



There was a big discussion on cortisol and its release into the body and how getting sick is part and parcel of long GT races and long seasons. But these guys are getting sick before one day races, or the first couple of days of a multi-stage race.

Not necessarily doping-related, no.

But a big fuss was made of the team teaching their riders how to wash their hands properly (attention to detail), as well has hiring someone good with saddle sores, back in the day post-death of soigneur. When a bunch of Sky riders withdrew from the Vuelta in the first few days.

So it's April.

Short races.

And they're getting sick.

While other team members are floating to the top as the cream of the pro peloton.

With the apparent intensity and volume of Sky's training id of thought the fact so few get sick would be the red flag.The riders that have been getting sick are all the new ones and either young(so hopefully clean) or come from a clean background(connect the dots wise)... do the incrowd ever get sick tho?

 

[the sceptic]

Dawg has a life threatening illness, but luckily it only materializes when there are no important races.

 

[Taxus4a]

Cod Liver Oil
Garlic
Nitrate rich foods

I wonder what the accumulated advantage of using these nutrients scientifically might be to SKY. Is it doping?

No, that is not doping
If they take advantage of that, good for them...
Now a freind told me...(for the basque country)... everybody was doing "roller" affer the race...

Before just SKy or Garmin did that.
Everybody right now copy them, after they laughed, now is not so funny...

 

[BYOP88]

And Robert Gesink has been training at Tenerife, so he should have 'Sky form' for the Giro and hopefully will be able to beat Wiggans, with or without help from the other teams.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

With the apparent intensity and volume of Sky's training id of thought the fact so few get sick would be the red flag.The riders that have been getting sick are all the new ones and either young(so hopefully clean) or come from a clean background(connect the dots wise)... do the incrowd ever get sick tho?

I would like more info on the race peloton as a whole but it's not always available. It would be far better to look at the complete list of DNFs to get a better picture of who is getting sick. Sky get mentioned as they are usually at the front, winning or dancing away from others.

If the riders are young, Ellingworth shouldn't be telling the media they need to perform better, but allowing them to mature.

If the riders are young, attention to detail DB should be training them easier than the seasoned, quantum leaping riders.

 

[thehog]

Dawg has a life threatening illness, but luckily it only materializes when there are no important races.

Yes.

It appears to spike up when the testers arrive in Teneriife. But then subsides when they leave.

 

[thehog]

And Robert Gesink has been training at Tenerife, so he should have 'Sky form' for the Giro and hopefully will be able to beat Wiggans, with or without help from the other teams.

He should to close to Wiggins in the ITT as well.

Appears lots of Pros have woken up and are now training hard.

 

[IndianCyclist]

At US Postal , the performances were phenomenal by every rider. Roberto Heras, Azevedo top 10 in TDF even when riding for Armstrong. After they left the team, the performances weren't the same again(not even close). They weren't able to duplicate them after leaving the team.
Same case with Sky. The performances at Sky should be duplicated by other teams if they are standard known legal non-cheating non-magical methods. Otherwise the stigma of suspicion will always be attached. Lets see what happens with Rogers, Flecha and others who left Sky.

 

[Taxus4a]

''Training is copying. Toni Rominger prospered greatly last year at a high age, partly due to altitude training in in Colorado. So Breuking and Zülle will head that way in july. [...] Hennie Kuiper: ''Italians are ahead of their time. They always were. [...] That whole EPO-story is blown out of proportion. Even if it was used, why would only Italians do it, while you can acquire it easily in Switserland?''

''There is no secret, and it isn't a wonder'' says Eddy Merckx. [...] France, Belgium and the Netherlands are years behind [in organisation]. That already was the case in my time.''

http://www.trouw.nl/tr/nl/5009/Arch...ziet-zijn-carriere-langzaam-doodbloeden.dhtml

Article a couple of days after one of the darkest days of our sport, the Fleche Wallone where Gewiss dominated the entire podium. Almost 20 years later, but the excuses are the same. Altitude training. . No doping of course, it's doubtfull that's even used. Most Sky fans probably started watching cycling 2 or 3 years ago. But for the people following this sport longer, it's not hard to find out why we don't believe the same lies told by a different team.

excuses?? MOTIVES.
There is a big diference: they had worst bikes, things in general, always in sport, improve with the time, but the climbing time, the watagge, is the same or slower.. so... how could you explain??
And the motives are not the same, SKY do lot of things that nobody do before, and others teams are starting to do now.
But, if you want to be competitive in a world without doping what you need to do??
Training in altitude is really important, similar efect than EPO...impossible to win if other do and you dont.
More professional, better organised,.. You really think that is possible to succed in sport without those things? Really??

You can dope and say, what I do is this... but if you dont dope, you are going to say de same, becouse there is no other way.

So if you think you have discovered something with that, I dont know if to cray or to laugh, becouse this is the more normal thing possible, it is normal, people winning saying they are in the sofá watching TV is not credible.. with doping or without it... you understand, or you need a map??
If you talk to me as stupid I do with you, sorry...
it is better to think a little before to writte stupid things... Put something more elaborated, as criptonite or something, not obvious things...

So if the fact that SKy is doping is that they said similar things than in the past.. Oh my good... all the speculators are like this??
all the team win...
and? why a clean team is not able to win everything if he has gathered the best riders????
Why nodody ask those things with Barcelona or Madrid??

 

[Taxus4a]

Right now I see you are speculating with the cyclist are sick..
Oh my god, now results than a cyclist, a man thas is on his bones always with his body at the limit cant got sick, becouse, that is motive of doping...

Seriuslly, you are really sicks, Mental illnes very strong,

I say you on time to your heath

well, speculate is not always bad, when you achieved any conclusion, told me, and we discuss...if you are enough convincent, no problem to give you that point

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Right now I see you are speculating with the cyclist are sick..

I'm not speculating, and am the only one who mentioned it. They ARE sick. It says they pulled out of the race. Too bad you're ESL or you'd understand my post properly, and the fact that I said it doesn't mean doping. Just raising the point about what was done to prevent sickness is NOT WORKING.

Do you think anyone in professional peloton dopes?

Or do you think everyone is clean now?

Or are only Sky & Garmin clean?

 

[Ferminal]

Cod Liver Oil
Garlic
Nitrate rich foods

I wonder what the accumulated advantage of using these nutrients scientifically might be to SKY. Is it doping?

Allen Lim was using nitrates 2 years ago. Plus he made rice cakes which Sky haven't picked up on yet? They need to speak to Novak about the wonders of gluten free.

 

[Taxus4a]

At US Postal , the performances were phenomenal by every rider. Roberto Heras, Azevedo top 10 in TDF even when riding for Armstrong. After they left the team, the performances weren't the same again(not even close). They weren't able to duplicate them after leaving the team.
Same case with Sky. The performances at Sky should be duplicated by other teams if they are standard known legal non-cheating non-magical methods. Otherwise the stigma of suspicion will always be attached. Lets see what happens with Rogers, Flecha and others who left Sky.

Yes, for that reason Lofwist is winning things this year, Apollonio doing better,... and Rogers and Nordaugh just have been in troubles this winter, they need time, but they will be the same...
But, what s the problem, if SKy has more money, more especiallys, best methods, in to be better with SKY?? is that not usefull?

 

[Samson777]

Yes, for that reason Lofwist is winning things this year, Apollonio doing better,... and Rogers and Nordaugh just have been in troubles this winter, they need time, but they will be the same...
But, what s the problem, if SKy has more money, more especiallys, best methods, in to be better with SKY?? is that not usefull?

Yes! best methods is indeed useful!!!!!!!!

Conconi would agree with you

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Training in altitude is really important, similar efect than EPO...impossible to win if other do and you dont.

Tim Kerrison disagrees:
''The number one reason we go there is that it’s a climbing camp, it happens to be at altitude and one of the things we expect to see is an acclimatization to the altitude because one of the demands of the Tour is that you have to be able to perform at altitude. So we don’t go there as an altitude training camp to stimulate red blood cell production, we go there to adapt to be able to perform at altitude. Then there’s just the effect you get from being at a training camp, you are very isolated, there’s nothing you can do there except train and recover. And finally there’s heat acclimatization, it’s generally a lot hotter than anywhere else in the rest of Europe and that’s something else you need to be able to cope with at the Tour and we know that was something that Brad struggled with during the 2012 Tour. He’s now, of our riders, one of the best ones at handling the heat.”'
http://www.biscuittinmedia.com/tim-kerrison-training-wiggins/

Thats why the classic squad was called to attend Teide?

 

[spalco]

Thats why the classic squad was called to attend Teide?

Well, several of the points still apply to the classics' squad too - the focus of training from the isolation and the good weather. But it's consistent with Sky's performances that the one-day-riders profit less from that than the stage racers.