Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Every other team doesn't have Rod Ellingworth, Shaun Stephens & Tim Kerrison. If the coaches & sports scientists trying to replicate the training methods are doing a terrible of it as Sky evolve there own methods the it stands to reason the gap will keep getting wider.

You really believe this crap? What do you think newspapers in 1992 were calling Conconi? The called him 'the Wise', 'il Genius'.

Indeed, he was a genius, still is, just like the rest of the Ferrara crop.

Good to see the AngloSaxons have found a better, clean, way.

 

[Le Baroudeur]

Every other team doesn't have Rod Ellingworth, Shaun Stephens & Tim Kerrison. If the coaches & sports scientists trying to replicate the training methods are doing a terrible of it as Sky evolve there own methods the it stands to reason the gap will keep getting wider.

Don't forget the inter sport co-operation setup with amoung others British Rowing and their head coach Jürgen Grobler...

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I also remember how US Postal dominated the classics.

This x 1000

 

[ChewbaccaD]

if we're gonna have 100 posts claiming doping every time Sky win a race this will be the longest thread in the history of the internet

You guys are so much like the Armstrong homers of old, I'm getting all misty over the nostalgic memories...

 

[willbick]

the day a sky rider produces a similar power rating to armstrong is the day i will happily concede they are despicable dope cheats

 

[Libertine Seguros]

the day a sky rider produces a similar power rating to armstrong is the day i will happily concede they are despicable dope cheats

Again though: you don't need to put out the numbers Armstrong was putting out to be doping, because the doping is much more regulated now. The type of dope that would turn you into a peripheral top 10 rider then is the type of dope that can turn you into a winner now. Emanuele Sella's 2008 power outputs don't match Pantani's from 10 years earlier, but Sella was making everybody look like imbeciles on the climb. Did that make Contador, Riccò, di Luca and Menchov, all guys he was climbing rings around, any cleaner?

Cycling is cleaner now, but it is still a long way from being clean. This does mean that the possibility of competing at the top level while clean is increased, but it does also mean that the benefit of doping relative to competition is more marked.

 

[Hugh Januss]

the day a sky rider produces a similar power rating to armstrong is the day i will happily concede they are despicable dope cheats

I kind of feel like you really don't get it.

 

[the sceptic]

He is just trolling. Noone is that dumb

 

[AcademyCC]

The sad thing is i'd still like SKY to be clean but come on. Its just a constant stream of ridiculous performances. Its just getting out of hand now

 

[peterst6906]

the day a sky rider produces a similar power rating to armstrong is the day i will happily concede they are despicable dope cheats

That's a silly statement to make. I'm sure we can find plenty of examples where Armstrong's power for a stage has been matched by a Sky rider.

Of course, Armstrong didn't ride a lot of the early season races, preferring to leave it until Switzerland, Dauphine, etc., so the number of stages is limited, but I think someone will have you eating your words at some point in the future.

 

[The Hitch]

What I want to know is, if Michael Rogers was on the secret undetectable sauce, surely he can tell Bjarne, and get all the boys on it? Why would he hold out now?

au contraire mon ami. If it was kerrison marginal gains training that made him better then he could tell Riis -look we did warmdowns here, listened to Mozart here, relaxed our backrests to this degree angle etc. If sky had different doping products then the riders might not have been told what was in them,( e.g. if someone left conte they wouldn't have had access to "the clear"), or had better info on how to beat the tests, eg uspostal

Personally though I don't buy that rogers is clean now. I think bjarne and co don't give a **** about the week long stage races. Contador has also resigned himself to a challenge at the tour. That's where all saxo's cards lie.

if rogers is still doing Porte 2011 impersenations in July, only then I'll start wondering what sky have that saxo don't.

 

[Roude Leiw]

Beginning to look almost certain that Sky will win the next four Grand Tours with four different riders. This thread has barely started yet.

This and it will have more hits than the babes on bikes

 

[The Hitch]

Dan Martin took his cahones in his hands, and took on the Borg, and with a bit of luck he broke it - hell, Wiggins was only 5th.

Nibili took his giant cahones and had a punt; and he beat it's most advanced T-1000 model.

Has Contador attacked properly once? At some point the sheer uselessness of the Saxexpress has to become as much part of the conversation...

Contador attacked in ta on TiVo- an mtf so without the added problem he'd have here of staying away from kiri on the flat. He was brought back with ease. After ta he said he had learned a bit about how to fight sky.

he also attacked in Oman and managed to break everything into him froome and murito. So he has had some success. But i think sky's tram was weaker then.

Nibali and Dan Martin are different. Wiggins was a bit off in catalunya and some of the chasing was done by katusha and movi. I don't think that was the traditional sky kill all train in as far as Wiggins it was clear from the previous day was not going to be the benefactor from such a strategy.

Nibali was just a ridiculous stage with the rain and the 20%+ descents. Aquarone said he thought the stage was a mistake. + the 3 riders at the finish were atm the 3 best hill climbers in the world, vs froome who hasn't proven that yet.
I don't see how it was too different than today either. Nibali only went on the penultimate climb. Today Sanchez tried the same on the last climb. Only Sanchez wasn't able to distance Porte. Murito and Nibali may have been more succesfil but I don't think anyone in the race was capable of that.

 

[BYOP88]

Contador attacked in ta on TiVo- an mtf so without the added problem he'd have here of staying away from kiri on the flat. He was brought back with ease. After ta he said he had learned a bit about how to fight sky.

he also attacked in Oman and managed to break everything into him froome and murito. So he has had some success. But i think sky's tram was weaker then.

Nibali and Dan Martin are different. Wiggins was a bit off in catalunya and some of the chasing was done by katusha and movi. I don't think that was the traditional sky kill all train in as far as Wiggins it was clear from the previous day was not going to be the benefactor from such a strategy.

Nibali was just a ridiculous stage with the rain and the 20%+ descents. Aquarone said he thought the stage was a mistake. + the 3 riders at the finish were atm the 3 best hill climbers in the world, vs froome who hasn't proven that yet.
I don't see how it was too different than today either. Nibali only went on the penultimate climb. Today Sanchez tried the same on the last climb. Only Sanchez wasn't able to distance Porte. Murito and Nibali may have been more succesfil but I don't think anyone in the race was capable of that.

If Catalunya had a TT, Wiggans would've won easily.

 

[The Hitch]

I would be interested from your (imo objective) view if you thought that the finish really was Cancellara'esque as some people have said? Am I crazy to think that was a fairly normal finish for a bike race? i.e One guy makes a break and the others are to busy watching either other to really commit to catching him until its too late.

I agree with that actually to a point.

But here are some counterarguments

1 it was almost immediately after a hill and descent, which suggests only the strongest riders could.pull it off since people are still recovering from a hill and a fast descent. Very often e.g. Flanders roubaix or gt stages such finishes come maybe 10k after the final obstacle which provides far more time for recuperation and attacks. here it was 6 from the top of the climb. 5 till Porte attacked and that's not including Sammies attack on the descent

2 it's not a case of luck in that Porte had a teammate in the group. that one rider who everyone knows will not contribute to the chase and likely take the win anyway if they tow him to the line. Additionally henao as the yellow jersey, stage winner and visibly one of the strongest on the climb, was really strong so no one was going to help him. That's again a case of the team - sky being strong enough to provide more than 2 riders to the final selection. And it's far from the first race they've been able to do it in. It's similar to one of the Flanders wins from the 90's I remember seeing highlights of some years ago when 1 of the teams, maybe the one with tafi, can't remember, had 2 riders in the final group going into the final km so 1.went up the road and no one was going to chase, knowing the second was too strong and would win anyway.

3 sometimes you do see riders being brought back in attacks like that. In fact in the biggest races everyone is really paranoid so usually the attack with 1k to go is not the winnner. 1k is quite far actually, I think in the memorable Armstrong sprint stage win in 04 when flandis did a kiriyenka, kloeden went a little bit after the red banner, and got quite a gap and still got caught. Porte quite comfortably stayed away.

on the other hand yes, I would agree that portes win today was not quite the same as Cancellara flying away from boonen and pippo in e3.(great memories). Porte being so strong on short punchy climbs is more interesting to me than that finish.

Of course from a top down point of view it does look like simply another win for porte, his 5th of the season and another win for sky. And I think that more than the technical details behind every single win, is what really opens eyes.

 

[stefrees]

None of you guys appreciate good cycling. If you despise the current cyclists, **** off and watch football. Your all lonely keyboard warriors

 

[Cyivel]

None of you guys appreciate good cycling. If you despise the current cyclists, **** off and watch football. Your all lonely keyboard warriors

Cheers Brad.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Because you get armchair hematologists with no real understanding of the science leaping on noise and claiming it as proof of doping.

Your bias is showing. Only an idiot would release a blood profile without plausible explanations for apparent anomalies.
Here's a hint: hypoxia during a 34 minute TT is not a plausible explanation for increased retics 2 hours later. Neither is a MTF the day before, for that matter.

That said I still think its a good idea.

There are also possible privacy concerns under EU law, so it would require a strong opt-in from each rider. Some may just not be comfortable with that level of sharing, and it would be important to be seen to not discriminate against those riders in hiring and firing decisions.

Can you name a single thing - other than the VERY recent Walsh embedding - that Sky have done that is any more transparent than any other team in the peloton? Anything at all? We were promised transparency. It's very opaque still.

As for privacy - there's a lot of riders. I don't think you need to name the profiles. Just release the data. There won't be anything too unusual, as it's all clean and nothing has been artificially manipulated. We will see common trends of decreasing Hgb during GTs and early season Hgb peaks. All nice and squeaky clean. No need for identifying info.

 

[BYOP88]

None of you guys appreciate good cycling. If you despise the current cyclists, **** off and watch football. Your all lonely keyboard warriors

Does it have to be soccer, how's that rugby thing?

 

[stefrees]

Rugby is even worse.... Just enjoy the sport

 

[Taxus4a]

Again though: you don't need to put out the numbers Armstrong was putting out to be doping, because the doping is much more regulated now. The type of dope that would turn you into a peripheral top 10 rider then is the type of dope that can turn you into a winner now. Emanuele Sella's 2008 power outputs don't match Pantani's from 10 years earlier, but Sella was making everybody look like imbeciles on the climb. Did that make Contador, Riccò, di Luca and Menchov, all guys he was climbing rings around, any cleaner?

Cycling is cleaner now, but it is still a long way from being clean. This does mean that the possibility of competing at the top level while clean is increased, but it does also mean that the benefit of doping relative to competition is more marked.

Of course, if someone now has a minimal advantage, he will succed.. but that advantage could be doping, or not doping, ilegal or legal...in an era of big doping, you cant beat a big doper with legal things, no way.
Now is possible.

 

[Ferminal]

Rugby is even worse.... Just enjoy the sport

Doping makes the sport more enjoyable?

 

[thehog]

Rugby is even worse.... Just enjoy the sport

Just enjoy the doping.

 

[Caruut]

None of you guys appreciate good cycling. If you despise the current cyclists, **** off and watch football. Your all lonely keyboard warriors

Why would bone idle ****ers not hate football as well as cycling? Surely they despise all forms of human achievement, seeking to force everyone to dwell only in damp caves.

 

[martinvickers]

Contador attacked in ta on TiVo- an mtf so without the added problem he'd have here of staying away from kiri on the flat. He was brought back with ease. After ta he said he had learned a bit about how to fight sky.

Well, what he seems to have learned is, just, not to. Though to be honest I just find it really hard to pin down contador; on the one hand he seems pretty obviously 'dialled way down' from his pre ping heights- probably for obvious reasons too - but then you get Vuelta '12. I end up wondering is that spain specific or GT specific. time will tell, I suppose. I am NOT convinced on the SaxExpress. Roche doe not look like he wants to be there to me, which is deeply sad; Rogers has clearly lost the secret sauce, one way or the other.

he also attacked in Oman and managed to break everything into him froome and murito. So he has had some success. But i think sky's tram was weaker then.

granted.

Nibali and Dan Martin are different. Wiggins was a bit off in catalunya and some of the chasing was done by katusha and movi. I don't think that was the traditional sky kill all train in as far as Wiggins it was clear from the previous day was not going to be the benefactor from such a strategy.

I have nothing but a hunch, but a hunch, that Wiggins will do nothing much in the Giro. I'm not buying the 'steady build' - when Wiggins is 'on form' (2012) we saw what he was like, and he ain't at that level.

Nibali was just a ridiculous stage with the rain and the 20%+ descents. Aquarone said he thought the stage was a mistake. + the 3 riders at the finish were atm the 3 best hill climbers in the world, vs froome who hasn't proven that yet.
I don't see how it was too different than today either. Nibali only went on the penultimate climb. Today Sanchez tried the same on the last climb. Only Sanchez wasn't able to distance Porte. Murito and Nibali may have been more succesfil but I don't think anyone in the race was capable of that.

I'm just dialling forward to GC's, and assuming wiggins gets some sort of form back in time for le tour, I see a frightening team of killer diesels and that's before working out if Thomas, Stannard and Boassen Hagen are returning. Sitting steady is not going to break that sort of team. Hell, I'm not even sure if 'splitting' for the giro-tour double will even weaken it that much, there's at least a dozen borgs to pick from.