Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[timmers]

Every other team doesn't have Rod Ellingworth, Shaun Stephens & Tim Kerrison. If the coaches & sports scientists trying to replicate the training methods are doing a terrible of it as Sky evolve there own methods the it stands to reason the gap will keep getting wider.

Seriously! I think the reason Sky is going **** poor in the Classics is that Ellingworth and Kerrison have no one day classic background. Tours are a different matter and one could argue that maintaining a high tempo on climbs as shown in last year's TdF nullify's attacks. So training to do that makes sense however you need the riders to do that and I think that Sky has chosen riders capable of doing that. Other GC teams do not appear to have the same capability and I suggest that the main contenders Saxo, Astana, Movistar do not have the riders.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Seriously! I think the reason Sky is going **** poor in the Classics is that Ellingworth and Kerrison have no one day classic background. Tours are a different matter and one could argue that maintaining a high tempo on climbs as shown in last year's TdF nullify's attacks. So training to do that makes sense however you need the riders to do that and I think that Sky has chosen riders capable of doing that. Other GC teams do not appear to have the same capability and I suggest that the main contenders Saxo, Astana, Movistar do not have the riders.

Saxo, Astana and Movistar don't have the riders on paper those three teams are all stronger than sky. Of course that is on paper, they just don't have the ability to magically transform riders into Lance Armstrongs

 

[veganrob]

Lol Rabo/Blanco has had two sport/physiology scientists working for their team for almost 6/7 years now.

Garmin have the same with the likes of Adrie Van Diemen.

They're no idiots either... so why doesn't it work as well as for Sky?

Cause Sky have chimp doctors?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Oh definitely. They have a few layers of protection in place (ASO onside, BC-UCI link, media clout), and I get the feeling cycling in the UK is even more tightly knit than in the US, so getting some leaks happening is going to be a big ask.

Even the lowly guys like mechanics (ala Mike Anderson) want to keep their jobs and usually that's all they have to fall back on. It's a case of damned if you do, employed if you don't. Noone's paying whistleblower fees.

Source? Or is that just a easy self-fulfilling prophecy?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Saxo, Astana and Movistar don't have the riders on paper those three teams are all stronger than sky. Of course that is on paper, they just don't have the ability to magically transform riders into Lance Armstrongs

'on paper' basically means 'on dope', right? Mayhap they're clean now, and we're seeing the true athletic ability

 

[LaFlorecita]

'on paper' basically means 'on dope', right? Mayhap they're clean now, and we're seeing the true athletic ability

On paper means in theory, in reality sky have transformed a lot of donkeys into race horses.

You think all three teams decided to stop doping at the start of the 2013 season That doesn't make any sense especially if they want to beat sky

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Really? So you know nothing about UK cycling apart from that Sky is doping! Most riders and staff of the Sky team spend as much time in the UK as Greenedge spend in Australia! Stuff all! They are based in continental Europe!

Ah so you could dob in Sir Brad Wiggins and have no problems
1. winning your case
2. keeping your job with BC
3. getting another job in the UK as a bike mechanic

despite the fact Mike Anderson who WAS and IS a bike mechanic couldn't.

Uh huh,

Mike Anderson wasn't a mechanic

Mike Anderson, Lance Armstrong's former bike mechanic, speaks out

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/more/news/20130117/mike-anderson-lance-armstrong/#ixzz2PgHKulJz

but if you had the dirt in the UK you could make a fortune going to the newspapers!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2013/jan/22/uk-libel-laws-sunday-times-lance-armstrong

How UK libel laws undermined Sunday Times in Lance Armstrong case

Burden of proof forced newspaper into settling with cyclist when it felt its evidence, although strong, would not stand up to trial

So a bike mechanic is going to fair better than a corporation as big, well funded and already lawyered up as the Sunday Times. Puhlease.

It appears you are Australian so it must be very disappointing that a Tasmanian is making the big time in Europe with a British registered team. I would have thought that you might wish him well but C'est le vie.

C'est la vie.

That aside, the main things I am disappointed in are
1. the broken promise of transparency
2. the broken promise of a Manchester Q&A session with DB
3. performances that remind me of another era
4. lots of dodgy back office staff and questionable termination practices

I'd naively like cycling to be clean all the way through. I am struggling to accept that is the case when one team manages to dish out so much dominance. I couldn't care less where that team or its riders originated.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Seriously! I think the reason Sky is going **** poor in the Classics is that Ellingworth and Kerrison have no one day classic background. Tours are a different matter and one could argue that maintaining a high tempo on climbs as shown in last year's TdF nullify's attacks. So training to do that makes sense however you need the riders to do that and I think that Sky has chosen riders capable of doing that. Other GC teams do not appear to have the same capability and I suggest that the main contenders Saxo, Astana, Movistar do not have the riders.

Myself and Parrulo have used the Movistar example many times. How do Movistar not have the riders? There are a lot of top quality climbers on Movistar who could do the jobs that the Sky train guys do which wouldn't be stretching the realms of credibility to the same extent.

They've got 2 GT winners (Valverde, Cobo) and a bona fide GT winning potential climber (Quintana). They've got one of the top ranked riders in the world for hilly races and short stage races and who has won the Tour de Suisse (Costa), as well as a guy who's won that along with the Volta a Catalunya and placed highly in a number of GTs including winning the maillot blanc (Karpets). They have a few other riders who've managed GT top 10s even if they're not currently at that peak (Intxausti, 10th 2012 Vuelta - after losing 4 minutes sacrificed for Valverde early in the race too; Karpets, 7th 2007 Vuelta; Plaza, 5th 2005 Vuelta). They have two strong climbers who've been a key part of Liquigas' GT train in recent years (Szmyd, Capecchi), and a number of strong riders who've won difficult one week races in Spain (Moreno, Castilla y León and Asturias; Intxausti, Asturias; Plaza, Aragón) along with a corps of very strong and experienced domestiques (Gutiérrez, Erviti, Herrada) including one who's podiumed monuments (Lastras). They have a number of promising young talents (Ospina, Madrazo, Castroviejo) including one that's won mountain stages of GTs (Amador). And I haven't even mentioned Visconti yet, who's won the UCI Europe Tour, won countless one-day races and whose climbing has improved over the years to the point where he should be considered an equivalent to Boasson Hagen, albeit a few years older.

On paper, Movistar can be just as strong as Sky. But that's on paper only.

 

[BlenJones2]

Seriously! I think the reason Sky is going **** poor in the Classics is that Ellingworth and Kerrison have no one day classic background.

Ellingworth was the one in charge of GB's 'project copenhagen' for cavendish so some experience at least

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Myself and Parrulo have used the Movistar example many times. How do Movistar not have the riders? There are a lot of top quality climbers on Movistar who could do the jobs that the Sky train guys do which wouldn't be stretching the realms of credibility to the same extent.

They've got 2 GT winners (Valverde, Cobo) and a bona fide GT winning potential climber (Quintana). They've got one of the top ranked riders in the world for hilly races and short stage races and who has won the Tour de Suisse (Costa), as well as a guy who's won that along with the Volta a Catalunya and placed highly in a number of GTs including winning the maillot blanc (Karpets). They have a few other riders who've managed GT top 10s even if they're not currently at that peak (Intxausti, 10th 2012 Vuelta - after losing 4 minutes sacrificed for Valverde early in the race too; Karpets, 7th 2007 Vuelta; Plaza, 5th 2005 Vuelta). They have two strong climbers who've been a key part of Liquigas' GT train in recent years (Szmyd, Capecchi), and a number of strong riders who've won difficult one week races in Spain (Moreno, Castilla y León and Asturias; Intxausti, Asturias; Plaza, Aragón) along with a corps of very strong and experienced domestiques (Gutiérrez, Erviti, Herrada) including one who's podiumed monuments (Lastras). They have a number of promising young talents (Ospina, Madrazo, Castroviejo) including one that's won mountain stages of GTs (Amador). And I haven't even mentioned Visconti yet, who's won the UCI Europe Tour, won countless one-day races and whose climbing has improved over the years to the point where he should be considered an equivalent to Boasson Hagen, albeit a few years older.

On paper, Movistar can be just as strong as Sky. But that's on paper only.

I agree, Movistar need to get their house in order.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

On paper, Movistar can be just as strong as Sky. But that's on paper only.

Then that's Moviestar's mistake. Clearly, they spend too much time training on paper rather than on the road

 

[The Hitch]

Doctors medicating athletes without telling them what they are doing (or maybe even without consent)? Not unprecedented, but if that's what Sky's doing, then the ****'s going far deeper than "just" cheating in sports...

Not really. They give an athlete a new drug, the athlete isn't going to take out his science kit and investigate what's in it. But more to the point, the secret of the drug may not be what it contains but how it bests testers.

 

[bobbins]

Oh definitely. They have a few layers of protection in place (ASO onside, BC-UCI link, media clout), and I get the feeling cycling in the UK is even more tightly knit than in the US, so getting some leaks happening is going to be a big ask.

Even the lowly guys like mechanics (ala Mike Anderson) want to keep their jobs and usually that's all they have to fall back on. It's a case of damned if you do, employed if you don't. Noone's paying whistleblower fees.

This is so true. It's a very small world in the uk. Sky, BC, UK sport are all very close. Just look at some of the people involved and then take a look at that family tree.

 

[The Hitch]

Regardless, the ****storm resulting from such a development would put the Armstrong saga to shame.

They may very well be told the risks of whatever they accept to take. They just won't know enough to then go and tell bjarne much more than - it was a white pill and depression was a side effect.

 

[The Hitch]

^^
Half an answer (because it almost certainly doesn't/didn't apply to Rabobank) is that Sky has much more money to spend, which affects a team on all levels, but most prominently in the talent of riders they can afford to hire.

that's be and you know it.

I could just about see validity in the argument that their money goes to superior training which is why they perform better. It wouldn't stand long in the background of sky's results, but I could see the point.

the one that they just bought great riders gets blown over by a breeze.

 

[The Hitch]

Seriously! I think the reason Sky is going **** poor in the Classics is that Ellingworth and Kerrison have no one day classic background.
.

Kerrisons gt background on the other hand...

Tours are a different matter and one could argue that maintaining a high tempo on climbs as shown in last year's TdF nullify's attacks. So training to do that makes sense

that's a sleight of hand. -they train to keep a high tempo. Well it sounds poetic but essentially what it means is they train to be better.

If there's 10 riders left on a mountain and 4 of them are sky riders, 1 of who has been riding in the wind for half an hour, its not because they've mastered some ancient technical skill. It's because they are simply way way stronger than everyone they dropped.

Other GC teams do not appear to have the same capability and I suggest that the main contenders Saxo, Astana, Movistar do not have the riders

Saxo have roman kreuziger who has superior gt results to anyone in the sky train bar Wiggins.(before joining sky)
they have Nicky Roche who's 7th in the vuelta matches portes in the giro, only no 12 minute headstart. Who also relied entirely on climbing skills for that result as he has no tt.

And they have sky's very own uberdomestique Michael rogers. Who was so strong at sky he even snucked a 2nd place behind wiggo in the dauphine before ripping up the tour.

So I don't believe you''re serious

 

[Knutsen]

...Leave sky = ride like a fat man commuting home from work is just too far for me.

Gerrans, Löfkvist an Cav says hello.

 

[uphillstruggle]

91 CONTADOR VELASCO Alberto ESP
92 SÖRENSEN Chris Anker DEN
93 HERNANDEZ BLAZQUEZ Jesus ESP
94 ROGERS Michael AUS
95 ROCHE Nicolas IRL
96 ZAUGG Oliver SUI
97 KREUZIGER Roman CZE
98 MOREIRA PAULINHO Sergio Miguel

PORTE Richie AUS
13 DOMBROWSKI Joseph Lloyd USA
15 HENAO MONTOYA Sergio Luis COL
16 KIRYIENKA Vasil BLR
17 TIERNAN-LOCKE Jonathan GBR
18 ZANDIO ECHAIDE Xabier

On paper Saxo are much stronger. 2 years ago that sky line up is a pro conti team. Now they are the dominate force in cycling.

 

[will10]

I maintain that Saxo will be ready for the Tour. Hernandez and Majka were terrible last season before they got their Bertie back, then they climbed like demons. Riis will have a plan, he always does.

On paper Saxo are much stronger. 2 years ago that sky line up is a pro conti team. Now they are the dominate force in cycling.

Bingo.

Before Pais Vasco I speculated that this would be a big test for Sky's tried-and-tested blue train. Pais Vasco is traditionally an incredibly tough race to control. As it is they've strangled the life out of it with six riders. Pretty unbelievable.

 

[uphillstruggle]

Gerrans, Löfkvist an Cav says hello.

Can't argue with that really. But of all the riders they have taken on, their performances have stayed consistent, barring lovkists last two years at sky. Remember he finished above wiggins while working for him in the 2010 tour.

 

[roundabout]

Apart from the British Pecharroman and the career domestique in Zandio it's actually an ok team.

 

[xcleigh]

Before Pais Vasco I speculated that this would be a big test for Sky's tried-and-tested blue train. Pais Vasco is traditionally an incredibly tough race to control. As it is they've strangled the life out of it with six riders. Pretty unbelievable.

How have you come to this conclusion? These shorter stage races always have tight margins in the top 10 and this years doesn't look any different to previous editions. When you say strangled what do you mean?

 

[will10]

How have you come to this conclusion? These shorter stage races always have tight margins in the top 10 and this years doesn't look any different to previous editions. When you say strangled what do you mean?

The racing in this year's edition has been markedly different from any edition in say the last eight years.

 

[sublimit]

Gerrans, Löfkvist an Cav says hello.

Steve Cummings is riding solidly for BMC also. He even managed to hold off Cameron Meyer in his Vuelta stage win in a drag race last year.

 

[hiero2]

You are an ADMINISTRATOR and your reply to Hogs post is a conflict of interest and bias.

Is it a conflict of interest? Hardly. What is my interest? It was a friendly note, clearly delivered in moderator's garb. My interest was clearly keeping the conversation civil, and respectful. theHog's sarcasm is clear to me, and most of hog's posts could be nothing BUT sarcasm, since they are so obviously contrary. However, this is not clear to everyone, and people do take exception to his posts. One option would be to delete his posts and ban theHog. I am trying to avoid that.

Is it bias? No, because we do get complaints about theHog.