Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

A little simplistic: there is a holistic and very scientific approach to training at Sky and the riders do what they're told. It's like expecting a footsoldier to disclose invasion plans.

Lol, they dont even have a doctor on board who can deal with 'food poisoning' at Mount Teide. Seems clear to me they need a new Geert soon.

Doubt he ever left though, Geert being equal to Tim that is.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Lol, they dont even have a doctor on board who can deal with 'food poisoning' at Mount Teide. Seems clear to me they need a new Geert soon.

Doubt he ever left though, Geert being equal to Tim that is.

Sorry I'm confused by this: what does that have to do with training?

 

[Bexon30]

He's a footsoldier, what makes you think he has the knowledge or ability to give up Sky's training plan to saxo, and that they would base their training plan around what he tells them? He's not a coach, he's a rider, it's fanciful to suggest he would be able to deliver all of that.

Jimmy, come on... If I'm shown how to do a task and shown a new improved way while working for a company. Why on earth would I forget what I've learnt, ways to implement said skill? That's false. A foot solider is a poor comparison this is an ex WC of many years experience with a vast array of learnt techniques and methods. To say he can't take this with him is nuts. Of course he can take the marginal gains learning with him. Learnt skills are hard un learn. Especially when your career and future earnings rely on your ability to improve or match your best.
I might agree if it were a different scenario but he himself underwent their training methods so unless they wiped his memory I don't see how he could of forgotten. Perhaps you should give me one marginal gain example he couldn't take or remember.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Jimmy, come on... If I'm shown how to do a task and shown a new improved way while working for a company. Why on earth would I forget what I've learnt, ways to implement said skill? That's false. A foot solider is a poor comparison this is an ex WC of many years experience with a vast array of learnt techniques and methods. To say he can't take this with him is nuts. Of course he can take the marginal gains learning with him. Learnt skills are hard un learn. Especially when your career and future earnings rely on your ability to improve or match your best.
I might agree if it were a different scenario but he himself underwent their training methods so unless they wiped his memory I don't see how he could of forgotten. Perhaps you should give me one marginal gain example he couldn't take or remember.

What I'm saying if he can't take the training programme in its entirety with him, and have his new team implement it. He's not a coach or a sports scientist. He'll be able to bring snapshots of it, but not everything. Surely you'd concede that?

If it was Kerrison then yes, he's the brains behind the operation, Rogers certainly wasn't.

 

[armchairclimber]

I fully expect other teams to start adopting SKY training methods or at least training to counter them. You never know though, MR may have gone into Saxo making suggestions and been shot down...."no need for that nonsense my boy".

 

[JimmyFingers]

"Training? Who needs training?"

 

[Bexon30]

What I'm saying if he can't take the training programme in its entirety with him, and have his new team implement it. He's not a coach or a sports scientist. He'll be able to bring snapshots of it, but not everything. Surely you'd concede that?

If it was Kerrison then yes, he's the brains behind the operation, Rogers certainly wasn't.

I understand what your saying that I concede. What I don't quite grasp is what technique couldn't he take? I mean he has seen and heard it all.
And as for the assertion a new team wouldn't want to listen to a rider whom pushed the biggest numbers of his career whilst riding for the most improved and dominant team of the previous year is also beyond me.
I just don't get it. Logic and reasoning say Saxo should benefit from his knowledge and therefore the teams closer aligned.

 

[thehog]

What I'm saying if he can't take the training programme in its entirety with him, and have his new team implement it. He's not a coach or a sports scientist. He'll be able to bring snapshots of it, but not everything. Surely you'd concede that?

If it was Kerrison then yes, he's the brains behind the operation, Rogers certainly wasn't.

Why would he take the program with him to implement? That's silly.

So everyone should implement a Sky program?

LOL!

Funny.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

If it was Kerrison then yes, he's the brains behind the operation, Rogers certainly wasn't.

A team should employ Chris Carmichael then. He made a champion out of Lance.

 

[JimmyFingers]

I understand what your saying that I concede. What I don't quite grasp is what technique couldn't he take? I mean he has seen and heard it all.
And as for the assertion a new team wouldn't want to listen to a rider whom pushed the biggest numbers of his career whilst riding for the most improved and dominant team of the previous year is also beyond me.
I just don't get it. Logic and reasoning say Saxo should benefit from his knowledge and therefore the teams closer aligned.

I was being facetious about Saxo not wanting it

Logic and reasoning certainly dictates Saxo would want to ape the techniques of a successful team, but then they are relatively successful themselves, so logic and reasoning also dictates that they wouldn't through out their proven technqiues for a radical new approach based on what Rogers is able to tell them.

I'll concede I would expect Rogers to be performing better. Quite frankly, given his association with Ferrari I would be surprised if he rode clean when he was at Sky, something I was saying last year, and I'd be even more surprised if he was riding clean at Saxo. I do expect his training to taper towards July though: think we'll see a different team altogether....

 

[taiwan]

It depends what sort of techniques we are talking about, whether Rogers could import them complete to Saxo. If it's secret lofty cutting edge spots science then maybe he'd only know his own programme, it it's an arrangement with the UCI then he can't replicate that. If they're simply "on some new sh!t" then he can take that with him.

 

[MartinGT]

I agree with Jimmy on this.

Whilst Sky are coming up with mind boggling unbelievable performances, if there was to be something like Asheden coming in and evaluating blood counts etc, it has to be across the board and no team singled out, it has to be fair.

Unlike Walsh though who is on Murdoch's pay roll, I don't think people would be saying "he's been bought"

 

[Bexon30]

It depends what sort of techniques we are talking about, whether Rogers could import them complete to Saxo. If it's secret lofty cutting edge spots science then maybe he'd only know his own programme, it it's an arrangement with the UCI then he can't replicate that. If they're simply "on some new sh!t" then he can take that with him.

Exactly this.

I will try and ask again what training technique could he not take with him?

 

[MatParker117]

Exactly this.

I will try and ask again what training technique could he not take with him?

Tim Kerrison, Rod Ellingworth & Shane Sutton if Rogers told Saxo's coaches what Sky were doing and they couldn't replicate it for whatever reason then he would go backwards. Frankly I was surprised that Bobby Julcih wan't hired along with Steven de Jong.

 

[gooner]

I agree with Jimmy on this.

Whilst Sky are coming up with mind boggling unbelievable performances, if there was to be something like Asheden coming in and evaluating blood counts etc, it has to be across the board and no team singled out, it has to be fair.

Unlike Walsh though who is on Murdoch's pay roll, I don't think people would be saying "he's been bought"

This isn't about a team being singled out. Doing it of their accord and in their own independent way would be a great way of removing the suspicion to it's minimum. They shouldn't bother about what other teams do with regards to this, if they're entirely clean themselves and have nothing to hide.

 

[the sceptic]

What I'm saying if he can't take the training programme in its entirety with him, and have his new team implement it. He's not a coach or a sports scientist. He'll be able to bring snapshots of it, but not everything. Surely you'd concede that?

If it was Kerrison then yes, he's the brains behind the operation, Rogers certainly wasn't.

But i thought skys training revolution was just down to stuff like washing your hands and sleeping on the same pillow everywhere. But youre saying its some sort of top secret scientific training program that can only be understood and replicated by Kerrison, the swimming coach. So whats it gonna be?

 

[JimmyFingers]

But i thought skys training revolution was just down to stuff like washing your hands and sleeping on the same pillow everywhere. But youre saying its some sort of top secret scientific training program that can only be understood and replicated by Kerrison, the swimming coach. So whats it gonna be?

Come on, this isn't a sensible question, is it?

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

But i thought skys training revolution was just down to stuff like washing your hands and sleeping on the same pillow everywhere. But youre saying its some sort of top secret scientific training program that can only be understood and replicated by Kerrison, the swimming coach. So whats it gonna be?

Maybe Saxo don't have the right pillows. It's perfectly possible that the riders were never told the make of pillow at Sky. It would certainly would explain the decline of Rogers and Nordhaug. Presumably the likes of Lofkvist and Appollino were never given their own pillows in the first place.

 

[JimmyFingers]

I agree with Jimmy on this.

May have to put this in my sig for posterity

 

[the sceptic]

Come on, this isn't a sensible question, is it?

Why not? the "kerrison is a genius that revolutionized cycling" theory seems equally laughable to me as the marignal gains bull****

 

[wansteadimp]

Exactly this.

I will try and ask again what training technique could he not take with him?

Surely it depends on Rogers? With all the sports scientists in place presumably they are analyzing performance and tailoring training based on those numbers.

Rogers could be an incredible numbers geek who is totally into it and understands the analysis and could predict where the Sky team were likely to take his training, or

He could be hopeless with numbers and scientific data and just trains to what Sky told him to do.

If he is in the former camp then he could be incredibly useful to Saxo, if he is in the latter camp he would be next to useless.

Same goes for any interest he shows in what they may or may not shove in to his body. "Whats this? How does it work?" compared to "Just give me the good stuff and watch me go".

He'll be somewhere between the two extremes I've highlighted but he will tend to one end of the spectrum or the other.

 

[thehog]

Maybe Saxo don't have the right pillows. It's perfectly possible that the riders were never told the make of pillow at Sky. It would certainly would explain the decline of Rogers and Nordhaug. Presumably the likes of Lofkvist and Appollino were never given their own pillows in the first place.

Cannondale use the same pillows. Sagan is going well.

Could be something in it.

Wouldn't surprise me. A good nights sleep is paramount. Especially when on the Tour where hotel beds can be terrible.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Why not? the "kerrison is a genius that revolutionized cycling" theory seems equally laughable to me as the marignal gains bull****

Because it's a nonsense question misrepresenting what marginal gains is supposed to be and expecting me to answer it.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Surely it depends on Rogers? With all the sports scientists in place presumably they are analyzing performance and tailoring training based on those numbers.

Rogers could be an incredible numbers geek who is totally into it and understands the analysis and could predict where the Sky team were likely to take his training, or

He could be hopeless with numbers and scientific data and just trains to what Sky told him to do.

If he is in the former camp then he could be incredibly useful to Saxo, if he is in the latter camp he would be next to useless.

Same goes for any interest he shows in what they may or may not shove in to his body. "Whats this? How does it work?" compared to "Just give me the good stuff and watch me go".

He'll be somewhere between the two extremes I've highlighted but he will tend to one end of the spectrum or the other.

Good post, avoiding exaggeration, devoid of sarcasm, and full of intelligent points. I just need to ask one thing: what are you doing in the clinic?

And you managed to make the point I was trying to much more succinctly than me.

 

[wansteadimp]

Good post, avoiding exaggeration, devoid of sarcasm, and full of intelligent points. I just need to ask one thing: what are you doing in the clinic?

And you managed to make the point I was trying to much more succinctly than me.

Thank you, not getting work done!