Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[armchairclimber]

I just find people like you hilarious in the same way I thought yanks who were stupid enough to believe Armstrong were hilarious. Well, not quite in the same way. The yanks had the excuse of being able to honestly say they were unaware of how doping was endemic to the sport and how corrupt the sporting authorities are. The Sky crowd have no such excuse.

You haven't a clue what my specific take on SKY is.

If they are doping I want to know.I want to know what they are taking and what benefits they are getting...specifically. I want to know why, if they are on a programme of PEDs, they are riding more slowly, with lower power output than riders 5 years ago. I want to know are they the only team doping in a clean peleton? If the peleton is still broadly dirty, are SKY simply doping better? Or are they training better? If they are training better I want to know how.

What I don't do with relation to SKY or Sagan or anyone else who hasn't got a "history" is assume that their performance indicates doping....especially when it actually doesn't in empirical terms.

I loathe SKY the brand with a passion...for political reasons.

 

[BYOP88]

Cool it with the personal bickering. Everyone. You know the next step

An orgy in the showers, followed by a buffet lunch?

 

[armchairclimber]

Cool it with the personal bickering. Everyone. You know the next step

Is it the naughty step?

 

[the sceptic]

You haven't a clue what my specific take on SKY is.

If they are doping I want to know.I want to know what they are taking and what benefits they are getting...specifically. I want to know why, if they are on a programme of PEDs, they are riding more slowly, with lower power output than riders 5 years ago. I want to know are they the only team doping in a clean peleton? If the peleton is still broadly dirty, are SKY simply doping better? Or are they training better? If they are training better I want to know how.

What I don't do with relation to SKY or Sagan or anyone else who hasn't got a "history" is assume that their performance indicates doping....especially when it actually doesn't in empirical terms.

I loathe SKY the brand with a passion...for political reasons.

5.9 w/kg is the new "never tested positive"

 

[ferryman]

An orgy in the showers, followed by a buffet lunch?

Far too quick with that reply

But as Net says back to Sky and not those who are posting.

 

[thehog]

They really need a Foundation or some sort of deflective story.

Its only going to get worse when they do the Giro/Tour double.

When the Dawg beats Contador its going to look real silly.

What to do? How do they play this?

I read Velorooms now and then. Just for a laugh. But even the guys over there have turned on Sky.

Not anger but laughter as in comedy with each performance from Porte and the Dawg.

 

[lemoogle]

What I don't do with relation to SKY or Sagan or anyone else who hasn't got a "history" is assume that their performance indicates doping....especially when it actually doesn't in empirical terms.

I thought if there was one thing that wasn't suspicious about Sagan, it was his history and past potential. The guy has hardly come out of nowhere.

 

[The Hitch]

What I don't do with relation to SKY or Sagan or anyone else who hasn't got a "history" is assume that their performance indicates doping....especially when it actually doesn't in empirical terms.

Do you know how old Sagan is?

Also do you know about his previous acheivements? Just because you started watching cycling at a certain point doesn't mean he started winning at that point.

 

[the sceptic]

They really need a Foundation or some sort of deflective story.

Its only going to get worse when they do the Giro/Tour double.

When the Dawg beats Contador its going to look real silly.

What to do? How do they play this?

I read Velorooms now and then. Just for a laugh. But even the guys over there have turned on Sky.

Not anger but laughter as in comedy with each performance from Porte and the Dawg.

Its hard to imagine where they would draw the line and say enough is enough. They dont seem worried about what they have done so far so why not just go full *** and get two riders on the podium in all 3 GT's.

Going 1-2 in the giro and 1-2-3 in the tour and Henao or Porte winning the vuelta seems very doable right now.

The jimmyfingers and mastervickers wont change their minds no matter how silly they look, so why not.

 

[D-Queued]

Can someone please list out what marginal gains are and how they change performance to the degree we've seen?

Give me a list. Even a partial list. Let me know why you believe this could account for Sky's performances. I want to know why people believe this.

it's fun to poke fun at those marginal gains such as washing hands / having M n M's in team sky colours at team presentations / riders own mattresses at races etc

but DB states aim is to do everything as best as possible + to avoid following
traditional ideas just because that's the way it's always been done

+ signing those riders whom are most likely to improve within the team sky set up

so marginal gains are just that............marginal...everything is important

Mark L

Pillows: +1%
Mood lights: +1%
Hand washing: +1%
Team psychologist: +1%
Slower cadence (for Wiggins): +1%
Pep talks by Brailsfraud: +1%
Warming down: +1%
Warming up: +1%
Gluten free diet: +1%
Reverse periodization: +1%
AICAR: +3%
GW-501516: +3%

TOTAL: +16%

That is almost an 18% rise in efficiency!

Yes, he missed something.

SKY do not pedal in circles. Nor in squares.

Nor would they use Biopace chain rings, since that would go against DB's rule against using something that has been tried before. And failed.

No.

SKY pedal in triangles. Triangles are more stable than circles or squares.

This triangle technique provides an additional 2% of marginal gain because it is extra special unusual.

Now you have your full 18%.

Dave.

 

[thehog]

it's fun to poke fun at those marginal gains such as washing hands / having M n M's in team sky colours at team presentations / riders own mattresses at races etc

but DB states aim is to do everything as best as possible + to avoid following
traditional ideas just because that's the way it's always been done

+ signing those riders whom are most likely to improve within the team sky set up

so marginal gains are just that............marginal...everything is important

Mark L

This is an utterly absurd post.

Avoid following "traditional ideas"?

Tenerife is not new. It's a traditional training ground. Mainly for dopers.
Washing hands is not new. It's traditional.
Warming down. It's not new. Been done since the 60's.
Motor pacing has been around since the invention of the motor cycle.
Several teams use the cooling pillows. Several riders bring their own blankets and pillows on the Tour.

What are you talking about?

Froome has confirmed he's never been in a wind tunnel.

There is absolutely nothing new in their training.

Nothing that you can reference. You just hear the term "marginal gains" and go with it. Frankly I've not heard or seen anything Sky does that would constitute a "gain".

All I see is a team 5-10% faster than any other team and can turn mid pack fodder into climbing demons.

No one to date has been able to explain this fact. There are many questions. And so few answers.

At least believe in it yourself before posting such cows dung.

 

[JRanton]

A little simplistic: there is a holistic and very scientific approach to training at Sky and the riders do what they're told. It's like expecting a footsoldier to disclose invasion plans.

Rogers wasn't a foot soldier. He was road captain and as late as November was talking about he wanted to continue working with Brailsford and the Sky management to improve the team.

That being said I think we should wait and see how Rogers performs at the Tour before making definitive conclusions.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Funny how everyone is in agreement that sky are doping, except for the british posters. What does that say?

ACtually it's only 2 posters, armchairclimber and leon7766.

All the other posters either:
* are not sure, without some hard evidence
* don't think they're clean at all

it's just the unsure ones makes the same amount of noise and act the same as the "completely sure they're clean" ones.

 

[thehog]

This is an utterly absurd post.

Avoid following "traditional ideas"?

Tenerife is not new. It's a traditional training ground. Mainly for dopers.
Washing hands is not new. It's traditional.
Warming down. It's not new. Been done since the 60's.
Motor pacing has been around since the invention of the motor cycle.
Several teams use the cooling pillows. Several riders bring their own blankets and pillows on the Tour.

What are you talking about?

Froome has confirmed he's never been in a wind tunnel.

There is absolutely nothing new in their training.

Nothing that you can reference. You just hear the term "marginal gains" and go with it. Frankly I've not heard or seen anything Sky does that would constitute a "gain".

All I see is a team 5-10% faster than any other team and can turn mid pack fodder into climbing demons.

No one to date has been able to explain this fact. There are many questions. And so few answers.

At least believe in it yourself before posting such cows dung.

This caught my eye in today's CyclingNews.

Enrico Gasparotto (Astana) was hit by a truck while out training ahead of this weekend’s Amstel Gold Race but has escaped serious injury.

The defending champion was motor pacing around with Astana Pro Team directeur sportif Stefano Zanini when a delivery truck pulled out of a driveway unexpectedly to turn left across the road. Zanini was able to stop the scooter but Gasparotto wasn’t able to avoid a collision with the truck and then the pavement.

The rider luckily escaped serious injury and will still look to start Amstel this weekend. After the collision, despite bruises, Gasparotto was able to carry on training, completing a four hour rider. He wasn’t taken to hospital.

"It was impossible to brake. We were going 45 maybe 50k on a little bit of a descent, and it was impossible not to crash. I was very, very lucky that there was no real damage. My body is a little bit hurt, and my bike was not so good. I have a little bit of pain right now, but today is Thursday, and I can go to the osteopath tonight and everything should be good by Sunday," Gasparotto said in a press release.

 

[Ferminal]

What, having a known doper as a DS?

 

[BroDeal]

This caught my eye in today's CyclingNews.

Sky's marginal gains secrets must be seeping out to the rest of the peloton. Before P-R Phinney tweeted that he did 120 km of motor pacing in two and a half hours. Expect to see him powering up Alpe d'Huez at the front of the pack in July

 

[simo1733]

Where does all this stuff come from? I never heard anyone from Sky claiming that they invented warming down or motorpacing.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Where does all this stuff come from? I never heard anyone from Sky claiming that they invented warming down or motorpacing.

Warming down is claimed by Brailsford.

Motorpacing is taking a dig at the Leopard Trek video.

 

[armchairclimber]

Do you know how old Sagan is?

Also do you know about his previous acheivements? Just because you started watching cycling at a certain point doesn't mean he started winning at that point.

Yes. And that certain point was over 25 years ago. It's a careless and lazy assumption to make that someone who retains an open mind re. SKY is some sort of neophyte fan.

 

[armchairclimber]

I thought if there was one thing that wasn't suspicious about Sagan, it was his history and past potential. The guy has hardly come out of nowhere.

By "history" I meant "history" of PED use.

 

[red_flanders]

it's fun to poke fun at those marginal gains such as washing hands / having M n M's in team sky colours at team presentations / riders own mattresses at races etc

but DB states aim is to do everything as best as possible + to avoid following
traditional ideas just because that's the way it's always been done

+ signing those riders whom are most likely to improve within the team sky set up

so marginal gains are just that............marginal...everything is important

Mark L

I'm not poking fun. I don't believe it one bit but I don't even know specifically what these gains are. Or why anyone would believe that undefined techniques which simply (apparently) aim to optimize training would provide the kind of benefits clearly seen in the Sky team. I honestly don't know why anyone believes this and I sincerely want to know why they do. I accept that I may be missing something.

 

[BroDeal]

I'm not poking fun. I don't believe it one bit but I don't even know specifically what these gains are. Or why anyone would believe that undefined techniques which simply (apparently) aim to optimize training would provide the kind of benefits clearly seen in the Sky team. I honestly don't know why anyone believes this and I sincerely want to know why they do. I accept that I may be missing something.

Your problem is that you have not applied these techniques to your own cycling. If seasoned pros who have spent years and years training, pushing up to a hair's breadth beneath their physiological potential, can benefit to such a degree from a few marginal changes then think what a typical recreational schlub has to gain. The possibilites are staggering to consider. Wash your hands, mate, wash your hands. You'll be regional--dare I say national--champion by next year.

 

[armchairclimber]

I'm not poking fun. I don't believe it one bit but I don't even know specifically what these gains are. Or why anyone would believe that undefined techniques which simply (apparently) aim to optimize training would provide the kind of benefits clearly seen in the Sky team. I honestly don't know why anyone believes this and I sincerely want to know why they do. I accept that I may be missing something.

OK, let's just take one of those elements that are supposed to deliver a "marginal gain". Say, the practice of getting on the rollers for a structured warm down at the end of a stage.
Now, I don't know how many teams routinely did this before SKY came along and we started to see them at it on our screens. Vaughters suggests that it wasn't common practice.
Any 15 year old can tell you that a structured warm down after a race or vigorous session is important in returning the body gradually from a highly stressed state to a resting state and that, it significantly improves recovery. This goes for pretty much any sport. We all know that.
Given that a vital part of competing in GTs is the ability to recover from one day's efforts to deliver the following day, it's not too much of a stretch to suggest that the team which adopts this practice and does it properly might recover better and thus perform better the following day. It's obvious innit? Child's play.
So why was it derided? How many teams have followed suit? (I don't know but I'd like to know).

Frankly, I suspect the bigger gains have been made by training the riders with the best capacity for speed endurance to ride for long periods at (but not over) that aerobic capacity. A numbers game. That's what it looks like to me. In much the same way as Salazar figured that for Mo Farah to beat Bekele and win Olympic 5/10k gold, he would have to be able to run the last 400 in under 55 seconds, SKY have figured what sort of sustained pace and power is required to control GT stages.

Perhaps they require PEDs to deliver that. The numbers say "not necessary".

(Note: see hypothyroidism thread. I wonder how many SKY riders are being treated for hypothyroidism).

 

[sittingbison]

...A numbers game. That's what it looks like to me. In much the same way as Salazar figured that for Mo Farah to beat Bekele and win Olympic 5/10k gold, he would have to be able to run the last 400 in under 55 seconds...

personally I wouldn't have used Salazar as a shining example of cleanliness...not with his own history and with his other runner Rupp (a white guy) also beating Bekele over 10000m to get 2nd.

 

[spalco]

Can someone please list out what marginal gains are and how they change performance to the degree we've seen?

Give me a list. Even a partial list. Let me know why you believe this could account for Sky's performances. I want to know why people believe this.

It's an interesting question, but one you can't reasonably expect anyone here in this forum to be able to answer. And not getting an answer from one of us doesn't mean there isn't an answer.

eta: I fully understand why you're not taking this just on faith though; it's just that it's up to Sky to provide that information (or not, but then they shouldn't complain about people mocking them).