Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[the sceptic]

If Wiggins had a transformation it was before he joined Sky

He had a big transformation in the ITT in 2012.

 

[Netserk]

Top 10 in a Grand Tour is a lot more impressive than a stage win in the Giro del Trentino.

As I said, downplay the palmares to manufacture a leap in performance

You are comparing results in a palmares context. Valve was comparing performances.

In the Giro '11 what do you think his most impressive performance was? Was that single performance more impressive than this?

 

[Netserk]

People who were dismissive of Porte considered Siutsou their #1 climbing domestique. Some probably argued he was better than Wiggins even.

Who said that

 

[Caruut]

Did I say that??

Wiggins 2007->2009 is a bigger step up than Wiggins 2009->2012 IMO. If you're going to call something a 'transformation' surely the former is the better candidate...

My point is that there have been two major "transformations" in his career. When he went from back-fodder to outside contender, barely hanging on, and when he went from outside contender to invincible stage racer. As such, I think it's incorrect to suggest that he didn't transform while at Sky.

 

[Caruut]

Contador post FW. And I'm sure I could find similar things being said at Pais Vasco. Plus simply his results so far this season.

Contador is going to say "form" whatever the reason. The other two I can think of are inadequate training or being out-doped. Alberto sure isn't going to say he was out-doped even if he was. I was just saying that you can't say "form and performance are all relative" and simultaneously dismiss Contador.

 

[SundayRider]

My point is that there have been two major "transformations" in his career. When he went from back-fodder to outside contender, barely hanging on, and when he went from outside contender to invincible stage racer. As such, I think it's incorrect to suggest that he didn't transform while at Sky.

2007 - 2009 huge transformation. 2009-2012 another massive transformation.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Contador is going to say "form" whatever the reason. The other two I can think of are inadequate training or being out-doped. Alberto sure isn't going to say he was out-doped even if he was. I was just saying that you can't say "form and performance are all relative" and simultaneously dismiss Contador.

I guess that was what I was driving at when I said fuzzy, whos in form, who's out of form, why they are in the form they are in, what part of the season they are peaking for and of course what drugs they might be using and when. It just makes performance comparisons problematic for me, and open to a variety of intepretations.

Regarding Contador I'll concede form is a poor choice of phrase. I guess what I was driving at is that he isn't the force so far this season that he has been in previous years. What I was suggesting is the old adage that to beat a doper you need to be doper may not be as clear cut given that this present incarnation of Contador, for whatever reason, isn't as good as previous incarnations.

 

[Ferminal]

No disrespect to either of you, but I do think this sort of reasoning gets very 'fuzzy' for want of a better word. We heard the accusations fly at Pais Vasco because they were beating Contador, even though Contador is patently very short of form. Now we're guessing who was or wasn't at peak form at any given point during last season, and comparing performances?

Westra and Talansky did peak for those races, it's pretty clear looking at how their season progressed (Westra we know is history, Talansky dudded California but came back eventually in Spain), what we know of their abilities (Westra's 2 best perfomances are from that race, for Talansky that Romandie TT holds at least until Eze this year), and what they have achieved since.

The second-tier guys often look for goals earlier in the season and not bank everything on a GT. The bigger names, well they try and win by March but a lot of the time it seems to be just scraping by relying on your ability rather than having a major peak.

So winning a major stage race is never a walk in the park. Contador knows that as well as anyone - he's probably won 10 pre-Tour stage races but also lost just as many. Building up to the Tour he loses to guys like Brajkovic and Evans. Who is to say a red hot Costa, or Westra, or Talansky can't do the same?

You might get lucky once and have no real opposition, but the chances are that you will always run into someone who is either better or whose form cycle is ahead of yours. To win a prominent race in March, April and June means that your combination of ability and form throughout the season has been as good as anyone's. "Beat a bunch of nobodies" is rubbish; is that supposed to make Sanchez' Pais Vasco superior to P-N, Romandie and Dauphine?

 

[will10]

That's a great post and right on the money IMO.

 

[armchairclimber]

2007 - 2009 huge transformation. 2009-2012 another massive transformation.

TDF podium to winner? The two riders who finished in front of him in 2009 weren't at the races in 2012.

 

[ebandit]

right

That's a great post and right on the money IMO.

you're correct.............jimmyF knows

Mark L

 

[Ferminal]

Current (12 monthly) rankings based on GC points only:

Rodriguez 697
Wiggins 1184
Froome 1382
Contador 1090
Valverde 631
Henao 745
Costa 677
Nibali 855
Porte 930
Quintana 538
Van Garderen 853
Moreno 572
Hesjedal 530
Talansky 765
Pots 597

I'm pretty sure most of them would have ridden one of P-N/Dauphine/Romandie. But apparently it wasn't one of the greatest stage racing seasons in recent times? Who else was there left to beat?

 

[Netserk]

Who is Pots???

 

[Miburo]

Current (12 monthly) rankings based on GC points only:

Rodriguez 697
Wiggins 1184
Froome 1382
Contador 1090
Valverde 631
Henao 745
Costa 677
Nibali 855
Porte 930
Quintana 538
Van Garderen 853
Moreno 572
Hesjedal 530
Talansky 765
Pots 597

I'm pretty sure most of them would have ridden one of P-N/Dauphine/Romandie. But apparently it wasn't one of the greatest stage racing seasons in recent times? Who else was there left to beat?

Andy of course...

You knew that was coming.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Yeah, to be fair Sivstov hasn't made that much of a jump. He climbed very well in the Giro '11 and was up there on Etna IIRC. I think he gained a few minutes back in a break in the 2nd/3rd week though?

It's impressive that he's come back from a horrible crash nine months ago but he's far from top of the Sky suspicion board.

That said, I can see why some on here are seeing him as another tree in a continually expanding forest. Yet another Sky rider bumping along at 6.0w/kg.

It's not just the > 6 W/kg, but the fact that he - a non-natural climber - did it for 36+ minutes, and mostly on his own, is what makes it so suspicious to me. That hadn't been done by anyone in years and certainly not by him.

You have to account for the circumstances, of course, and this isn't the 3rd week of a GT, but still, this was huge, and none of his climbing performances up until that point were that great.

 

[del1962]

Who is Pots???

Pozzovivo I assume

 

[The Hitch]

It's not just the > 6 W/kg, but the fact that he - a non-natural climber - did it for 36+ minutes, and mostly on his own, is what makes it so suspicious to me. That hadn't been done by anyone in years and certainly not by him.

You have to account for the circumstances, of course, and this isn't the 3rd week of a GT, but still, this was huge, and none of his climbing performances up until that point were that great.

I wonder how many of the other guys who climbed super well that giro still have that level

Contador - no
Anton - hell no
Scarponi - no
Nibali - yes
Gadret - hell no
Kruiswijk - who?
Dupont - lolololololol
Kruziger - No but Amstel could be a sign that he will get back
Nieve - no
Rujano
Svitsov - yes
Kiriyenka - yes

No peter weening jokes

Not including Menchov or Purito cos i dont think they climbed super.

So the 2 sky boys and vinos boy (and Katusha Piepoli boy if you want)

 

[The Hitch]

Did I say that??

Wiggins 2007->2009 is a bigger step up than Wiggins 2009->2012 IMO. If you're going to call something a 'transformation' surely the former is the better candidate...

That wiggins transformation came after the Sky project was given the go ahead, while training with bc cycling.

 

[del1962]

That wiggins transformation came after the Sky project was given the go ahead, while training with bc cycling.

And your point is?

Sounds like your are falling down the Hog/ DW line

 

[maxmartin]

It's not just the > 6 W/kg, but the fact that he - a non-natural climber - did it for 36+ minutes, and mostly on his own, is what makes it so suspicious to me. That hadn't been done by anyone in years and certainly not by him.

You have to account for the circumstances, of course, and this isn't the 3rd week of a GT, but still, this was huge, and none of his climbing performances up until that point were that great.

yep it is funny nowadays only SKY riders has the capability to ride away, all the other riders will be pull back by SKY train.

 

[The Hitch]

Sounds like your are falling down the Hog/ DW line

lol, considering the **** you tried to pull with Pinnoti you really think you are in a position to pass judgment on others?

 

[JimmyFingers]

You are comparing results in a palmares context. Valve was comparing performances.

In the Giro '11 what do you think his most impressive performance was? Was that single performance more impressive than this?

Nice little trip wire

Given that I've seen the closing few k on youtube of stage 2 of Trentino and watched highlights of the Giro 2 years ago I'm in no position to compare the emprical evidence in my mind only (and sorry, I'm not going to go back and watch the race again) and I would need a lot of quantifiable evidence to add to that to make it a fair comparison, I cannot answer that question. However I would be very interested to hear your answer.

BTW I Am not claiming cleanliness for Siutsou, just a lack of a transformation the clinic are so fond of. I would argue logic says top ten in a 3 week tour is more demonstrative of good performance that a stage win on the second day of a short stage race. As Ferminal says, doubts about him are far more justifiable from previous teams and performances.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Westra and Talansky did peak for those races, it's pretty clear looking at how their season progressed (Westra we know is history, Talansky dudded California but came back eventually in Spain), what we know of their abilities (Westra's 2 best perfomances are from that race, for Talansky that Romandie TT holds at least until Eze this year), and what they have achieved since.

The second-tier guys often look for goals earlier in the season and not bank everything on a GT. The bigger names, well they try and win by March but a lot of the time it seems to be just scraping by relying on your ability rather than having a major peak.

So winning a major stage race is never a walk in the park. Contador knows that as well as anyone - he's probably won 10 pre-Tour stage races but also lost just as many. Building up to the Tour he loses to guys like Brajkovic and Evans. Who is to say a red hot Costa, or Westra, or Talansky can't do the same?

You might get lucky once and have no real opposition, but the chances are that you will always run into someone who is either better or whose form cycle is ahead of yours. To win a prominent race in March, April and June means that your combination of ability and form throughout the season has been as good as anyone's. "Beat a bunch of nobodies" is rubbish; is that supposed to make Sanchez' Pais Vasco superior to P-N, Romandie and Dauphine?

Chapeau: a very informative and well reasoned post that has illuminated the nuances of a racing season for me. Form cycle is an interesting phrase; how can you know when you are comparing riders what part of that form cycle they are on? Also given that riders race to train, how can you gauge how hard the rider is trying in any given race?

That remains fuzzy for me. Too many variables, too many unknowns.

 

[JimmyFingers]

It's not just the > 6 W/kg, but the fact that he - a non-natural climber - did it for 36+ minutes, and mostly on his own, is what makes it so suspicious to me. That hadn't been done by anyone in years and certainly not by him.

You have to account for the circumstances, of course, and this isn't the 3rd week of a GT, but still, this was huge, and none of his climbing performances up until that point were that great.

Ok so you stand by your assertion Siutsou isn't a good climber? To me that's a bold claim.

And this was the second day of a short stage race. Siutsou got the nod from Wiggins and went for the win, as a dom don't you seize those opportunities with both hands? Also you can let it all hang out, hold nothing back, because there are other doms and you can rest in the peloton. Plus what did Siutsou for the second half of last season? I know if I had been laid up likehim when I had an opportunity like that I would have taken it with gusto,like he did.

But very much hypothetical of course. Siutsou is another to be added to the list of Sky super-doms, and I appreciate that is reason for suspicion, although I do think in his case there is consistency with his historical riding. It strikes me that someone who has finished as well as he has in GTs, is a handy climber and TTer and at the age he is has the potential to become a good stage race rider and top 5 in a GT.

I may be wrong. I often am, although not as often as I am told I am

 

[JimmyFingers]

Just me here? Its cold and dark