Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[JimmyFingers]

If you were at the head of sky and assuming you are indeed giving them dope.

Can't make look it too suspicious, can you?

The C-I farse was the limit, in order for sky to destroy the giro and not make it look too crazy they gotta be under the radar a bit now.

Well they've paid no mind to it looking suspicious so far, and you start drifting into tinfoil hat territory with this sort of hypothesising

Wiggins had no domestiques on that final climb, Nibbles had two

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

That man is crapping bs all the time, just like WiggO [ did everyone see his race shirt today? WiggO; Sky Superstar, what is that all about???? ]

But to be fair to JV, he hired Wigan because he was a clown, suddenly that clown is able to be a GT contender, above Christian VandeVelde, on YOUR clean team, without your training, whatelse can JV do then defend the guy?

Perhaps that is why Eric Boyer and JV didnt get along too well? Some peeps do not buy BS.

The mechanical cost him about 20 seconds according to the race thread, he had almost got back up to the leaders and Nibali attacked with Santa, I think the effort cost him and he came in a minute and a half back, and thirty seconds adrift of Cadel.

Not superhuman at all, but of course open to a variety of interpretations

He had at least three mechanicals, going up and down. Not surprising he gave up. Nice training ride for the Bradster.

that works out to 1450 VAM.

30 minutes or 33? Big difference. Those guys just do not have the truth at hand.

 

[DirtyWorks]

He had at least three mechanicals, going up and down. Not surprising he gave up.

Can someone corroborate this? It wasn't one? Three close together on the run-in to the final climb?

 

[Miburo]

Well they've paid no mind to it looking suspicious so far, and you start drifting into tinfoil hat territory with this sort of hypothesising

Wiggins had no domestiques on that final climb, Nibbles had two

Never too late to change your mind especially after the critique its getting (at least in this forum )

Sivtsov was pretty crazy 2 days ago.

 

[slowup_fastdown]

Well they've paid no mind to it looking suspicious so far, and you start drifting into tinfoil hat territory with this sort of hypothesising

Wiggins had no domestiques on that final climb, Nibbles had two

Lol at start. This is the clinic!

Cheers Ben

 

[Catwhoorg]

I've really got up your nose, haven't I? The explanations were requested by people other than me, for your information.

You appear to be missing the elephant in the room - people are tested but you can explain away anomalous readings (despite protocols like when tests are done and how machines are calibrated) easily.

Easily.

You may as well not test at all.

For a worked example. Try plotting that same data on the three plots, on a single graph.

One sole point really stands out.

Even better plot HB and ret% as a scatter, and see what it shows.

I may not be a haematologist, but I analyze data from testing for a living. That one point is not something I'd hang a hat on, let alone an argument.

 

[Catwhoorg]

I assume it is that charting blood values over a period of time enables a 'line of best fit' to be drawn (as shown on the charts) which shows whether (in general) the blood values are behaving as expected (i.e. move downwards over the tour).

Its hardly a line of best fit. Its a second order regression (which requires a minimum of 3 points) using 4 points. Heck why not throw a 3rd order polynomial and try to draw conclusions from that. The r2 would be 1.0000

Those lines are basically useless from a statistical standpoint and simply serve to misguide the eye.

(The other which irritates me is that whomever plotted them didn't adjust the Hg scaling to match the major gridlines. 13 major ticks on the offscore axis, and just 12 on the Hg. Its not wrong per se buts its poor presentation)

 

[goggalor]

"You develop a lot of muscle mass, particularly on the upper body, while training for the track over the winter," says Parker.

Oh yeah, the guy was jacked.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Never too late to change your mind especially after the critique its getting (at least in this forum )

Sivtsov was pretty crazy 2 days ago.

I'm sure Sky pay a lot of attention to what's said here and in other forums

And where was Siutsou today? Started the day in second and clearly didn't have the legs.

I know though, lets say Sky dominated the race, like they have this season

 

[Ripper]

Oh yeah, the guy was jacked.

He's huge!

 

[Ripper]

I'm sure Sky pay a lot of attention to what's said here and in other forums

And where was Siutsou today? Started the day in second and clearly didn't have the legs.

I know though, lets say Sky dominated the race, like they have this season

Actually, I find it quite interesting that Sky has not generally dominated in a similar fashion as last year.

It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few months. They certainly have shown they still have a capacity to dominate. So ...

Was last year just luck?

Have the other teams figured out how to:
- train harder?
- train at altitude?
- do cool downs?
- bring their own pilllows?
- dope properly?
- hire swim coaches?

Is it all a strategy to absolutely nail the GTs?

Does Wiggo really care about the Giro or is it really about Pwning others in le Tour?

Is Sky falling apart?

Do I have bad gas?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Actually, I find it quite interesting that Sky has not generally dominated in a similar fashion as last year.

It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few months. They certainly have shown they still have a capacity to dominate. So ...

Was last year just luck?

Have the other teams figured out how to:
- train harder?
- train at altitude?
- do cool downs?
- bring their own pilllows?
- dope properly?
- hire swim coaches?

Is it all a strategy to absolutely nail the GTs?

Does Wiggo really care about the Giro or is it really about Pwning others in le Tour?

Is Sky falling apart?

Do I have bad gas?

All interesting questions. I think last year was a mixture of surprise andluck, and other teams are looking hard at what they did and copying it, whether that means another drugs arms race or them changing training regimes and tactics to match Sky's professionalism.

I also don't think Wiggins has been trying as hard to win things as he did last year. That said Froome has been desperate for a win,even attacking his dom in CI.

That said without the mechanical who knows, he may have beaten Nibali in the climb and taken the race overall.

As for your gas, yes, yes you do.

 

[Ripper]

All interesting questions. I think last year was a mixture of surprise andluck, and other teams are looking hard at what they did and copying it, whether that means another drugs arms race or them changing training regimes and tactics to match Sky's professionalism.

I also don't think Wiggins has been trying as hard to win things as he did last year. That said Froome has been desperate for a win,even attacking his dom in CI.

That said without the mechanical who knows, he may have beaten Nibali in the climb and taken the race overall.

As for your gas, yes, yes you do.

The CI was a classic strategy, he was not attacking his dom, it was a set up based on legs and timing.

Unless Wiggo was playing games today he would not have beaten Nibbles. Of course, Nibs might be peaking a bit early, so one does not want to read too much into that ...

Please don't say Sky's professionalism in a serious context, it makes me a bit crazy ('cause it's a bit BS)

 

[weeniebeenie]

Its hardly a line of best fit. Its a second order regression (which requires a minimum of 3 points) using 4 points. Heck why not throw a 3rd order polynomial and try to draw conclusions from that. The r2 would be 1.0000

Those lines are basically useless from a statistical standpoint and simply serve to misguide the eye.

(The other which irritates me is that whomever plotted them didn't adjust the Hg scaling to match the major gridlines. 13 major ticks on the offscore axis, and just 12 on the Hg. Its not wrong per se buts its poor presentation)

Fair point. I didn't really express myself well or use the correct language.

What I was trying to say was that I assume the point of charting blood values is to see whether an athletes Hg level behaves in the way that you would expect over a period of time (i.e. decrease during a grand tour). However, I also assume that an anomaly or two is expected as while the level should drop over the tour as a whole, the Hg level won't decrease in a perfect arc and will probably fluctuate slightly on a day to day basis due to a variety of reasons.

My view is that riders are damned if they publish their values and damned if they don't. If they don't they get accused of doping. If they do they will undoubtedly contain an anomaly or two that will someone will use as proof of doping. The problem is that you probably need to be a trained specialist to be able to properly interpret which anomalies are natural fluctuations and which are indicative of doping.

 

[Ripper]

Fair point. I didn't really express myself well or use the correct language.

What I was trying to say was that I assume the point of charting blood values is to see whether an athletes Hg level behaves in the way that you would expect over a period of time (i.e. decrease during a grand tour). However, I also assume that an anomaly or two is expected as while the level should drop over the tour as a whole, the Hg level won't decrease in a perfect arc and will probably fluctuate slightly on a day to day basis due to a variety of reasons.

My view is that riders are damned if they publish their values and damned if they don't. If they don't they get accused of doping. If they do they will undoubtedly contain an anomaly or two that will someone will use as proof of doping. The problem is that you probably need to be a trained specialist to be able to properly interpret which anomalies are natural fluctuations and which are indicative of doping.

You definitely need to be a specialist.

 

[weeniebeenie]

All interesting questions. I think last year was a mixture of surprise andluck, and other teams are looking hard at what they did and copying it, whether that means another drugs arms race or them changing training regimes and tactics to match Sky's professionalism.

I also don't think Wiggins has been trying as hard to win things as he did last year. That said Froome has been desperate for a win,even attacking his dom in CI.

That said without the mechanical who knows, he may have beaten Nibali in the climb and taken the race overall.

As for your gas, yes, yes you do.

They also lost Yates, De Jongh and Julich within about a month. That must of thrown them a bit.

 

[D-Queued]

All interesting questions. I think last year was a mixture of surprise andluck, and other teams are looking hard at what they did and copying it, whether that means another drugs arms race or them changing training regimes and tactics to match Sky's professionalism.

I also don't think Wiggins has been trying as hard to win things as he did last year. That said Froome has been desperate for a win,even attacking his dom in CI.

That said without the mechanical who knows, he may have beaten Nibali in the climb and taken the race overall.

As for your gas, yes, yes you do.

Surprise at how well these new pharmaceuticals really work.

What does that have to do with professionalism?

Dave.

 

[JimmyFingers]

The CI was a classic strategy, he was not attacking his dom, it was a set up based on legs and timing.

Unless Wiggo was playing games today he would not have beaten Nibbles. Of course, Nibs might be peaking a bit early, so one does not want to read too much into that ...

Please don't say Sky's professionalism in a serious context, it makes me a bit crazy ('cause it's a bit BS)

Except Porte was in the box seat and had the legs. The only person that beat him was Froome. He may have allowed Porte the win had he won T-A (or if Porte hadn't won P-N) but he clearly wanted the win. It was planned, and he even looked back at Porte and Porte gave him the nod when he attacked.

As for games, not sure what you're meaning, the fact that Wiggins couldn't recover from the mechanical? Or that Nibali looked so impressive you don't think Wiggins would have beaten him anyway? He looked very comfortable matching him on Wednesday. I haven't actually eyeballed the climb, just followed the ticker and the race thread.

And ok, from hence forth I shall say tactics, or training regime

 

[JimmyFingers]

Surprise at how well these new pharmaceuticals really work.

What does that have to do with professionalism?

Dave.

I gave the option or either tactics/training or drugs, for balance's sake

 

[DirtyWorks]

All interesting questions. I think last year was a mixture of surprise andluck,

It's been a while since I trotted out the crackpot theory.

The UCI getting paid, handsomely, by the IOC for their excellent London Games viewer ratings had nothing to do with it?

We know the UCI has suppressed positives to build other myths. Why not this one?

 

[Catwhoorg]

My view is that riders are damned if they publish their values and damned if they don't. If they don't they get accused of doping. If they do they will undoubtedly contain an anomaly or two that will someone will use as proof of doping. The problem is that you probably need to be a trained specialist to be able to properly interpret which anomalies are natural fluctuations and which are indicative of doping.

Yep pretty much agree 100% with all of this paragraph.


If you juxtapose Wiggos values against Lances from 2009. It is clear just how big the anomalies from the (convicted) doper actually are.

 

[martinvickers]

Actually, I find it quite interesting that Sky has not generally dominated in a similar fashion as last year.

It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few months. They certainly have shown they still have a capacity to dominate. So ...

Was last year just luck?

Have the other teams figured out how to:
- train harder?
- train at altitude?
- do cool downs?
- bring their own pilllows?
- dope properly?
- hire swim coaches?

Is it all a strategy to absolutely nail the GTs?

Does Wiggo really care about the Giro or is it really about Pwning others in le Tour?

Is Sky falling apart?

Do I have bad gas?

I think there's an element of trying to stretch resources too, to cover both Giro and Tour - and while Froome has Porte and Kiriyena looking like bosses all year (or at least till the Paid Vasco TT), Konta and Cataldo have been rather more fitful - if Wiggins had a couple of his doms today he could simply have swapped bikes and lost a handful of seconds, with another dom to pace him. AS it was, not for the first time this year, he was isolated.

 

[JimmyFingers]

They also lost Yates, De Jongh and Julich within about a month. That must of thrown them a bit.

A very decent point, and again you can have the either/or option for how their influence or lack of influences the team performance.

 

[D-Queued]

I gave the option or either tactics/training or drugs, for balance's sake

Yes, always good to provide for the benefit of doubt.

Lots and lots and lots of doubt.

BTW - can you point me to the Forum on new and novel race strategies?

Will SKY move to the new zone defence this year, or stick to their man-on-man coverage?

Dave.

 

[JimmyFingers]

It's been a while since I trotted out the crackpot theory.

The UCI getting paid, handsomely, by the IOC for their excellent London Games viewer ratings had nothing to do with it?

We know the UCI has suppressed positives to build other myths. Why not this one?

Ha! Crackpot is fine, as long as you admit it a little!

But I will say once you get into tinfoil hat/ruling lizard elite territory it becomes like a self-fulfilling belief because there is no way to definitively deny it. I'm no mug, I know what goes on behind closed doors to broker these sort of deals, but it's a stretch and personally I would say one too far, but that is just an opinion.

And stop eating curry