Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Ferminal]

If that is the case what value are blood values? (no pun intended)

I have no idea. Ask Vaughters He posted in the Wiggins thread in 2009 and has commented recently about Hesjedal's values.

 

[Lanark]

First two weeks were super tame that year though. Remember this is the guy who got on the front on one of the sprint stages in the first week of the 2012 Tour, because he wanted to blow the cobwebs out as he was detraining just sat in the bunch. It was too easy to just be following. So maybe he was detraining over all those tame ASO "final climb 70km from the finish" ""mountain"" stages that the 2009 Tour was decorated with.

Was it? Decent lenght ITT on day one, TTT on stage 4, echelons on stage 5, tough rainy finish in Montjuic on stage 6, MTT on stage 7. That's certainly not an easy week for ASO-standards.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

You do remember that in fact Leipheimer all-in-all was stronger than Contador during that Vuelta do you? He never raced like that before or after during his whole career, but Levi probably would've beaten Albero at that gt if just allowed to do so.

About Giro/Tour double. My opinion is that in 2012 Contador would've archived that without any problems as both, Giro and Tour were without any big difficulties. 2011 was just the wrong year for it, because of that murder giro.

Levi was very close to Berto in the 2007 Tour as well if memory serves, though I agree that Bert was probably a bit lucky in the 2008 Vuelta. Maybe the Giro/Vuelta double is harder than I'd given it credit for.

Re Berto in 2012, in my experience, riders generally do better (when assessed by fans) in races before they've taken place or in races that they didn't contest than in those that they did contest!

 

[JimmyFingers]

I have no idea. Ask Vaughters He posted in the Wiggins thread in 2009 and has commented recently about Hesjedal's values.

Next time I see the bounder I will!

Just seems daft we have the all hallowed blood values and a abnormal reading can be dismissed so readily.

 

[Ripper]

So in 2009 Wiggo transforms into a 6.6+ w/kg climbing machine but still looks to be at the limit when going vertical in one of the 'easier' tours. He is there in the climbs and there in the TTs. Flash forward a few years and now he looks mellow on the climbs as his team sheds nearly all, destroys all in the TTs, and wins by a convincing margin.

And it is all down to a weak field or other one-off arguments.

Um, before 2012, wouldn't Sky have also been considered a non-contender?

Anyhoo, all the small things add up to a big smelly thing.

 

[weeniebeenie]

If that is the case what value are blood values? (no pun intended)

I assume it is that charting blood values over a period of time enables a 'line of best fit' to be drawn (as shown on the charts) which shows whether (in general) the blood values are behaving as expected (i.e. move downwards over the tour).

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Next time I see the bounder I will!

Just seems daft we have the all hallowed blood values and a abnormal reading can be dismissed so readily.

There isn't a blood profile that has been released that does not have at least one value that requires explanation, because it looks dodgy.

 

[weeniebeenie]

I've got no medical background, but I don't think that the 2009 charts are suspicious.

Firstly, a quick google brings up a number of websites (e.g. http://www.masimo.com/pdf/SpHb/LAB5447A.pdf) which discuss the factors that affect hemoglobin testing (e.g. time of day, position of patient etc).

Secondly, if the blood values were suspicious I doubt that Garmin would have released them as evidence that Wiggins wasn't doping. That would be unbelievably stupid.

 

[JimmyFingers]

There isn't a blood profile that has been released that does not have at least one value that requires explanation, because it looks dodgy.

This does worry me that an apparently foolproof indication of cleanliness isn't, since anomalous readings count for nothing, or can be easily explained away by faulty machines or something.

 

[Catwhoorg]

There isn't a blood profile that has been released that does not have at least one value that requires explanation, because it looks dodgy.

Which is why folks who understand testing errors, and variability are better suited to this sort of discussion.

Armchair haematologists who clearly don't, leap to wrong conclusions.

And you wonder why people don't release blood profiles, even if they have nothing to hide.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Which is why folks who understand testing errors, and variability are better suited to this sort of discussion.

Armchair haematologists who clearly don't, leap to wrong conclusions.

And you wonder why people don't release blood profiles, even if they have nothing to hide.

I've really got up your nose, haven't I? The explanations were requested by people other than me, for your information.

You appear to be missing the elephant in the room - people are tested but you can explain away anomalous readings (despite protocols like when tests are done and how machines are calibrated) easily.

Easily.

You may as well not test at all.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

You don't know what you're talking about. Again.

Thanks J, I will take it as a compliment.

Which is why folks who understand testing errors, and variability are better suited to this sort of discussion.

Armchair haematologists who clearly don't, leap to wrong conclusions.

And you wonder why people don't release blood profiles, even if they have nothing to hide.

Testing error, you should go work on the Garmin clean dream team. Everything is explained as a testing error.

Marginal gain for team SKY: put a powermeter on Brads spare bike, he didnt know what to do at Trentino.

Nice 'throwing the bike like Bjarne' by Brad I must say, that testosterone is really kicking in.

Does anyone know the SKy line up at Trentino?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Thanks J, I will take it as a compliment.

Testing error, you should go work on the Garmin clean dream team. Everything is explained as a testing error.

Marginal gain for team SKY: put a powermeter on Brads spare bike, he didnt know what to do at Trentino.

Nice 'throwing the bike like Bjarne' by Brad I must say, that testosterone is really kicking in.

Does anyone know the SKy line up at Trentino?

An alternative spin:

He parked the bike like a boss (stolen from the race thread)

That testosterone didn't help him get back to Nibbles, or the supercharger he's on, either Poe or AICAR/GW.

No powermeter and you can't soft pedal under the magic numbers to avoid suspicion, no SRM and we should have seen him full *** charging after Nibs. It's what Armstrong would have done

Better explanation is that he lost a chunk of time with a mechanical, they leaders didn't wait for him, Nibali attacked shortly afterwards, he saw the day was lost and rather than go into the red he conserved himself and went all tranquillo to the finish.

 

[JimmyFingers]

And Siutsou was nowhere to be seen, despite being second in the race and the subject of much discussion here after his win on Wednesday. Also no Sky train

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Indeed, 6.6w/k would definitely give you a chance!

* 475 watts at 71.5 kilo = 6.64 w/k for 30 minutes
482 watts at 71.5 kilo = 6.74 w/k for 18 minutes

I tend to think the difference between 18 and 30 minutes should be bigger, this is 1.5%, should be around a 5% drop.

Ok, so answer the 20 min effort vs 40+ minute effort question, I only have limited information from elite athletes, so this isn't a University study....

That said: CVV can produce about 5.9 watts per kg in peak form for 40+ minute climbs, Wiggo is a bit more at 6.1 w/kg for this length of effort.
From the pre-Tour tests both riders have done up Rocacorba (a 33 minute climb) I know that Wiggo was at 6.1w/kg and CVV was 5.7 w/kg (He was off form a bit in June). However, Wiggo did a local 10 mile TT in GB about 2 weeks before the Tour, or 5 days before the Rocacorba test. He posted a time of 18mins flat (and was disqualified for using a 1080 wheel...funny rules over there). Anyhow, his power was 482 watts, so using his Tour weight of 72 kgs, so 6.7 w/kg. So, anecdotally, there's about a 9% decrease in power when going from a 20 min effort to a 40+ min effort. At 6.7 w/kg you certainly can climb at a VAM of 1750, but at 6.1 you wont even hit 1700 (again, anecdotal based on experience).
The last TT in the Tour Wiggo averaged 434 watts, consistent with his previous tests of 40+ minutes and just about 6.1 w/kg. I dont have any data for Wiggo up climbs in the Tour, as he didnt use a PowerTap.

JV

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Got the stats on that climb?

 

[Ferminal]

Would hope that the 33min includes a bit more than that.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Would hope that the 33min includes a bit more than that.

that works out to 1450 VAM.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

And Siutsou was nowhere to be seen, despite being second in the race and the subject of much discussion here after his win on Wednesday.

The discussion wasn't about his day-to-day recovery, but the fact that his power output must have been very, very high on that climb. Given last year's crash and the fact that he must have only recently hit form, him bombing on this climb wasn't entirely unexpected. I certainly didn't predict that he would own the rest of the field here.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I wonder if Wiggo's "Pantani like" ascent when he finally got a new bike was curtailed to avoid raising suspicion, or he did in fact hit his limit.

Any idea how long he waited for the bike? He didn't finish all that far down.

Nice to see Cadel finally somewhere near the front.

 

[Ripper]

I wonder if Wiggo's "Pantani like" ascent when he finally got a new bike was curtailed to avoid raising suspicion, or he did in fact hit his limit.

Any idea how long he waited for the bike? He didn't finish all that far down.

Nice to see Cadel finally somewhere near the front.

I think it was about 20 seconds.

 

[JimmyFingers]

The discussion wasn't about his day-to-day recovery, but the fact that his power output must have been very, very high on that climb. Given last year's crash and the fact that he must have only recently hit form, him bombing on this climb wasn't entirely unexpected. I certainly didn't predict that he would own the rest of the field here.

Fairy nuff, I imagine he did bomb it up there on Wednesday but he has clearly paid for it. Adrenaline and a season ;aid up with a broken leg would have fueled his climb IMO!

 

[JimmyFingers]

I wonder if Wiggo's "Pantani like" ascent when he finally got a new bike was curtailed to avoid raising suspicion, or he did in fact hit his limit.

Any idea how long he waited for the bike? He didn't finish all that far down.

Nice to see Cadel finally somewhere near the front.

The mechanical cost him about 20 seconds according to the race thread, he had almost got back up to the leaders and Nibali attacked with Santa, I think the effort cost him and he came in a minute and a half back, and thirty seconds adrift of Cadel.

Not superhuman at all, but of course open to a variety of interpretations

 

[Miburo]

And Siutsou was nowhere to be seen, despite being second in the race and the subject of much discussion here after his win on Wednesday. Also no Sky train

If you were at the head of sky and assuming you are indeed giving them dope.

Can't make look it too suspicious, can you?

The C-I farse was the limit, in order for sky to destroy the giro and not make it look too crazy they gotta be under the radar a bit now.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I think it was about 20 seconds.

I was looking forward to seeing the results from today's efforts. On top of the *worst* possible time to have a mechanical, his domestiques were nowhere. If the power meter was on for Sir Brad, I bet there are some phenomenal numbers in it for the chase.

Too bad it worked out like that.