Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Don't be late Pedro]

I agree they are still somewhat complicit. It is just that they had so much more to lose that so few of them spoke out of the doping. They were a very small cog in a very large machine that would grind them out and spit them out.
They are not totally absolved of responsibility, but were very much the victim.

And personally I would agree with your stance. Imo to even say they are complicit is somewhat harsh. Bassons esp. was doing pretty much all he could do short of quitting the sport. And, as you mention, if you had put so much blood, sweat and tears (Well, maybe not blood in this case) then you can understand his reluctance to go further.

My general point is that these things are not always black and white and to argue that because someone was on a team that doped they must in some way have doping ties is disingenuous.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

The doctor's influence is far stronger than that of the rider. If the rider is caught in intrigue, he pays the price; if the doctor is caught in intrigue, the whole team pays the price, often including any innocent names. That's why their complicity is more troubling when they appear on teams trumpeting their cleanliness.

That would depend on the riders, no? I can think of at least one rider where his influence was stronger than the doctors.

if the doctor is caught in intrigue, the whole team pays the price, often including any innocent names. That's why their complicity is more troubling when they appear on teams trumpeting their cleanliness.

Agreed.

I'm also making a best-case scenario out of Phonak. It's also possible that Bartalucci had a specific role to play with regards to doping there, but I'm treating it as that he did not. But even if he was just there to monitor and police things, he is thereby involved in the act to a greater extent than a clean rider who knows it happens to others but says nothing publicly.

Wasn't Bassons often chosen by his Festina teammates to be the first rider to give a sample as they knew he would not test positive? It would also buy them time to 'clean up'.

 

[Benotti69]

Danny Pate is fairly outspoken?

Yes he is, on twitter.

 

[Taxus4a]

Comparing Bassons to Sky? Now that takes a lot of stretching!

Bassons was extremely outspoken, who on Sky is the equivalent? Let me see........no one. Hmmm wonder why?

All the team is equivalent.

And the other teams praise SKy for this new cycling.

 

[DirtyWorks]

People put up that everyone knows everyone in cycling, this is not necessarily true, probably more the case that people hide things from others in cycling, if SKy asked De Jong, Flecha, Hayman and they said nothing bad about Leinders, then where does that put them,.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but there's a flip-side to this. At the point of Sky's race squad actually racing, (2010?) we've got Brailsford going soft on his anti-doping staff promise. http://road.cc/content/news/31011-dave-brailsford-hints-team-sky-may-be-softening-anti-doping-stance

Let's revisit Leinder's departure from Rabobank after Rasmusen is ejected from Le Tour, after Rabobank implements a 'zero tollerance' policy.
http://www.telegraaf.nl/telesport/wielersport/article20480560.ece

So you've got a doctor previously at Sigma, Histor, Panasonic and Lotto leaving because 'zero tollerance' doesn't work for him who created zero-to-hero Grand Tour dominating Chicken and none of that registers as dodgy? Just the opposite.

 

[DirtyWorks]

People put up that everyone knows everyone in cycling, this is not necessarily true, probably more the case that people hide things from others in cycling, if SKy asked De Jong, Flecha, Hayman and they said nothing bad about Leinders, then where does that put them,.

Hold on though. That kind of hiring practice invalidates the Sky-Super-Scientific-Reasoning PR machine.

This blows the Science angle to bits again: http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/66369561144/franmillar-digger-forum-we-did-we-found

Veloclinic nails it: Sky sucks at Google. Some real science going on there when the Wife is in on hiring!

Unless the whole reason to hire Leinders is to never test positive while delivering a TdF winner. (AKA Chicken 2.0) Until Leinders is outed in a USADA affadavit.

 

[oldcrank]

It still puzzles me why it was so long after Team SKY/
21ST CENTURY FOX/PINARELLO/RAPHA hired Dr. Leinders
before his suitability was questioned by posters in the
Clinic who trumpet their anti-doping stance and whose
intimate knowledge of the pro peloton predates that of
Sir David John Brailsford CBE by many years, and in some
cases many decades.
One only has to look in the CN archives to the May 5, 2012
article "Rabobank tolerated doping on cycling team, De Rooy
claims" to see that there is not a single response in the
comments section. Not a single, solitary one.

 

[DirtyWorks]

It still puzzles me why it was so long after Team SKY/
21ST CENTURY FOX/PINARELLO/RAPHA hired Dr. Leinders
before his suitability was questioned by posters in the
Clinic who trumpet their anti-doping stance and whose
intimate knowledge of the pro peloton predates that of
Sir David John Brailsford CBE by many years, and in some
cases many decades.
One only has to look in the CN archives to the May 5, 2012
article "Rabobank tolerated doping on cycling team, De Rooy
claims" to see that there is not a single response in the
comments section. Not a single, solitary one.

Not sure where you are going here because the sport on one big opaque blob on the doping side until someone rats out these guys. Or, in Italy, law enforcement **eventually** name them.

Trying to build some credibility by name dropping is a fail though. More names/titles doesn't make the case any stronger.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Simple: Leinders was not known about to the layman. I don't read Dutch court documents for fun, and neither should you. But the guy being paid to ensure that due diligence in warding against presences on his team that could later lead to controversy regarding doping might have thought, let's check those court docs from Rasmussen's case before we hire a guy who, if fingered, would have implications for our whole team.

And let's be clear: with the blurred lines between Team Sky and British Cycling, many Olympic riders from the track and road who would never have met Leinders or benefited from his work could end up getting implicated falsely by the press and/or public if it ever did turn out Leinders was doping people at Sky. Hiring Leinders is an own goal simply because even if he isn't doing anything suspicious, his presence is suspicious and irreconcilable with previous public positions to those not aware of the softening of Sky's anti-doping stance during 2010. And their ability to answer to the questions inevitably raised about his presence was not convincing. Then again, their responses to all the questions in 2012 suggested they actually hadn't expected anybody to doubt them and were taken unawares when people didn't swallow their story whole.

 

[Parrulo]

It still puzzles me why it was so long after Team SKY/
21ST CENTURY FOX/PINARELLO/RAPHA hired Dr. Leinders
before his suitability was questioned by posters in the
Clinic who trumpet their anti-doping stance and whose
intimate knowledge of the pro peloton predates that of
Sir David John Brailsford CBE by many years, and in some
cases many decades.
One only has to look in the CN archives to the May 5, 2012
article "Rabobank tolerated doping on cycling team, De Rooy
claims" to see that there is not a single response in the
comments section. Not a single, solitary one.

That's because the comment feature hadn't yet been released at the time. . .

 

[thehog]

That's because the comment feature hadn't yet been released at the time. . .

That will probably do it...

Nice catch.

 

[Benotti69]

It still puzzles me ...............

Your posts are not puzzling. Like many pro Sky, you criticise the clinic but not the team. So Sky are clean because posters in the clinic missed Leinders being hired.

I dont remember the press conference announcing Sky had hired Dr Geert Leinders. He was flown in under the radar in the dark of night.

It appears Sky have Armstrong like minions in here. No surprise there.

 

[neineinei]

It still puzzles me why it was so long after Team SKY/
21ST CENTURY FOX/PINARELLO/RAPHA hired Dr. Leinders
before his suitability was questioned by posters in the
Clinic who trumpet their anti-doping stance and whose
intimate knowledge of the pro peloton predates that of
Sir David John Brailsford CBE by many years, and in some
cases many decades.
One only has to look in the CN archives to the May 5, 2012
article "Rabobank tolerated doping on cycling team, De Rooy
claims" to see that there is not a single response in the
comments section. Not a single, solitary one.

I think you'll find the comments section feature on the CN news articles was added only this year. There isn't a single comment on this little story either:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/george-hincapie-confesses-to-doping

Not that the comments section is the Clinic

 

[thehog]

Well Rabobank was a pretty well-oiled machine in the mountains in 2006 but especially 2007. Who doesn't remember Dekker leading almost 80% of the stage to the Aubisque easily keeping a group with Sastre and co at exactly 4 minutes, before Boogerd and Menchov teared it up for Rasmussen at an insane pace.

Now just replace Dekker with Hagen, Boogerd and Menchov with Rogers/Porte and Froome and Rasmussen with Wiggins and you have the same recipe. Except Wiggins being a far superior time trial specialist

I think you'll find the comments section feature on the CN news articles was added only this year. There isn't a single comment on this little story either:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/george-hincapie-confesses-to-doping

Not that the comments section is the Clinic

The Leinders thread was active around the time. Most didn't know Sky had hired him. Leinders's name never appears on the website. So it was hard for outrage when no one Sky had brought him onboard.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Resurecting the UCI's preference for a British TdF winner and how it makes the UCI and ASO richer.

Buried deep in this thread was my crackpot theory the Olympics payout was made larger with a British TdF winner.

And then comes the Yorkshire Grand Departe.

Here's some Grand Departe costs:
http://road.cc/content/news/89868-e...our-de-france-grand-depart-marketing-campaign

councils in Yorkshire will pay £11 million of the cost of putting the race on, with £10 million provided by central government.

20 million payout for ASO!!!! That's what giving a title to Sky got them in return.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Resurecting the UCI's preference for a British TdF winner and how it makes the UCI and ASO richer.

Buried deep in this thread was my crackpot theory the Olympics payout was made larger with a British TdF winner.

And then comes the Yorkshire Grand Departe.

Here's some Grand Departe costs:
http://road.cc/content/news/89868-e...our-de-france-grand-depart-marketing-campaign

councils in Yorkshire will pay £11 million of the cost of putting the race on, with £10 million provided by central government.

20 million payout for ASO!!!! That's what giving a title to Sky got them in return.

Oh DW you are one conspiracy theory away from UFO-ology.... Sigh...

You should be happy with the sudden appearance of a WorldTour race in Yorkshire. http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/welcome2yorkshire-plan-for-three-day-worldtour-race-in-2015

How much is the Yorkshire Tourism Board paying ASO and the UCI for this?

 

[Benotti69]

Oh DW you are one conspiracy theory away from UFO-ology.... Sigh...

You should be happy with the sudden appearance of a WorldTour race in Yorkshire. http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/welcome2yorkshire-plan-for-three-day-worldtour-race-in-2015

How much is the Yorkshire Tourism Board paying ASO and the UCI for this?

Makes sense to me. ASO never gave a flying flip about anything sporting, it has always been business and that was so obvious with how they rolled over for Armstrong.

Maybe ASO want to milk the South Africans next like FIFA did, so MTN to win a TdF in 2014 for a grand departe in Jo'burg 2015, unless Sky hire a SA rider soon.

 

[blackcat]

Makes sense to me. ASO never gave a flying flip about anything sporting, it has always been business and that was so obvious with how they rolled over for Armstrong.

Maybe ASO want to milk the South Africans next like FIFA did, so MTN to win a TdF in 2014 for a grand departe in Jo'burg 2015, unless Sky hire a SA rider soon.

SA pretty ****ty economy.

one woulda thunk they woulda tried to get beppu or arashio or Li Fuyu before the UCI popped him for a positive at a kermesse in gent

 

[LaFlorecita]

Makes sense to me. ASO never gave a flying flip about anything sporting, it has always been business and that was so obvious with how they rolled over for Armstrong.

Maybe ASO want to milk the South Africans next like FIFA did, so MTN to win a TdF in 2014 for a grand departe in Jo'burg 2015, unless Sky hire a SA rider soon.

No the grand depart will be in Utrecht in 2015 Benotti

 

[del1962]

Makes sense to me. ASO never gave a flying flip about anything sporting, it has always been business and that was so obvious with how they rolled over for Armstrong.

Maybe ASO want to milk the South Africans next like FIFA did, so MTN to win a TdF in 2014 for a grand departe in Jo'burg 2015, unless Sky hire a SA rider soon.

I guess Afrikaans is similar to Dutch.

 

[Benotti69]

No the grand depart will be in Utrecht in 2015 Benotti

Oooops, 2016 ok for you?

 

[thehog]

So, what are the winter training plans for Team Sky?

Well, at the moment we’re in the review phase, looking at feedback from the season and deciding what we continue to do, what we stop doing and how to tweak things for the new season. Once that’s done we’re planning over a six-week period. For the riders, some are just getting back on their bikes after time off and others are just finishing. To get ready to race we say, “get yourself ready to train”.

So that involves steady endurance work. Building the base over November and December, then building more hours on top. At the moment they'll be doing between 3 – 6 hours per day. However Ben Swift is looking to improve his peak power, doing short, sharp sessions working on his sprints. Then he'll add into that more volume training. Then in January we'll do race specific training.

Revolutionary

 

[Benotti69]

in case people forgot.

vetooo ‏@ammattipyoraily 8m
#TDF 2012, St.7. Belles Filles (5.90 km, 8.51 %, 502 m). Chris Froome ("67 kg"): 16 min 17 sec, 21.74 Kph, VAM 1850 m/h, 6.6 W/kg [CPL].

 

[Dazed and Confused]

in case people forgot.

No wonder everybody who went in with a 5,99 W/kg program were spat out the back.

 

[Benotti69]

No wonder everybody who went in with a 5,99 W/kg program were spat out the back.

It is like the 50% HcT limit. Didn't apply to some. Sky got the nod to go full *** for Froome.