Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

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Jul 21, 2012
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MartinGT said:
I have just been reading this and laughing at it.

Why arent more questions been asked of Leinders time at Sky? Why are poeple not pressing Brailsfraud on this and not taking the normal BS of "We didnt know"

I am sick of reading lame @rse excuses from Sky and others saying they are shocked and then reading articles like the LA one where the peloton talk etc. In my office and every office I have worked it you hear gossip, its human nature when you work so close with people.

So why they are "shocked" when it comes out its BS.

People need to start pressing the teams especially Sky on these matters.

It is a shame. I thought the british media loved scandals. And this sounds like a pretty big one to me. Leinders just gets more and more toxic.

Well, maybe Walsh will have some hard hitting questions in his new book. :rolleyes:
 
May 26, 2010
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Who believes Sky asked around about Leinder's?

I do, i believe they were looking for a doping doctor and they found one.

Fram Millar replies to Digger on twitter

Fran Millar ‏@franmillar 5h
@Digger_forum I can promise you that we looked and asked many people and NO ONE raised any issue about Lienders until 2012. Not one person.

I bet the issue NO ONE raised is that he would make riders positive :rolleyes:
 
Team SKY did their due diligence before the hiring and checked the Clinic and
not one member of the Clinic 11 had mentioned Leinders even once.
What more could SKY possibly be expected to do than check the greatest
repository of cycling/doping knowledge on the planet?
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
Who believes Sky asked around about Leinder's?

I do, i believe they were looking for a doping doctor and they found one.

Fram Millar replies to Digger on twitter



I bet the issue NO ONE raised is that he would make riders positive :rolleyes:
that is what you would expect your brother to say.

now, forget the nod and wink, and the pointer finger tapping on the tip of his nose three times.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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oldcrank said:
Team SKY did their due diligence before the hiring and checked the Clinic and
not one member of the Clinic 11 had mentioned Leinders even once.
What more could SKY possibly be expected to do than check the greatest
repository of cycling/doping knowledge on the planet?
no. the suppository of doping. We stick a baggy of pot belge up the rectum, and that is how we get into the neutral section
 
May 26, 2010
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oldcrank said:
Team SKY did their due diligence before the hiring and checked the Clinic and
not one member of the Clinic 11 had mentioned Leinders even once.
What more could SKY possibly be expected to do than check the greatest
repository of cycling/doping knowledge on the planet?

If only Brailsford had asked the clinic? That the best you got?

Your argument fails big time olcrank just because the clinic didn't say tickety boo means nowt.

Sky hired a doping doctor and not for putting cream on saddle sores.

If only Sky who are anti doping checked here;

http://www.dopeology.org/people/Geert_Leinders/

Pity they dont have computers at TeamGB HQ in Manchester :rolleyes:
 
Benotti69 said:
Who believes Sky asked around about Leinder's?

I do, i believe they were looking for a doping doctor and they found one.

Fram Millar replies to Digger on twitter



I bet the issue NO ONE raised is that he would make riders positive :rolleyes:

So omertà works only when it suits you?
 
Benotti69 said:
If only Brailsford had asked the clinic? That the best you got?

Your argument fails big time olcrank just because the clinic didn't say tickety boo means nowt.

Sky hired a doping doctor and not for putting cream on saddle sores.

If only Sky who are anti doping checked here;

http://www.dopeology.org/people/Geert_Leinders/

Pity they dont have computers at TeamGB HQ in Manchester :rolleyes:

Yet the earliest linked info on Leinders that is listed on Dopeology is from December 2012.
 

martinvickers

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Oct 15, 2012
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Benotti69 said:
If only Brailsford had asked the clinic? That the best you got?

Your argument fails big time olcrank just because the clinic didn't say tickety boo means nowt.

Sky hired a doping doctor and not for putting cream on saddle sores.

If only Sky who are anti doping checked here;

http://www.dopeology.org/people/Geert_Leinders/

Pity they dont have computers at TeamGB HQ in Manchester :rolleyes:

I'm presuming the computers don't have a time machine function - given you expect them to catch an entry made in 2012/2013 back in 2010....
 
Aug 5, 2012
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As I'm sure people know there was information about Leinders out there before Sky hired him (the book mentioned in the twitter conversation between Fran and Digger) but whether Sky knew of that or the Rabo brers they had there said anything it's impossible to say atm, but yeah I'd like to see further questions asked.

However lets not pretend the stuff on Leinders was well known to the likes of us when they hired him because that just isn't the case.
 

martinvickers

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Oct 15, 2012
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Cyivel said:
As I'm sure people know there was information about Leinders out there before Sky hired him (the book mentioned in the twitter conversation between Fran and Digger) but whether Sky knew of that or the Rabo brers they had there said anything it's impossible to say atm, but yeah I'd like to see further questions asked.

However lets not pretend the stuff on Leinders was well known to the likes of us when they hired him because that just isn't the case.

100%.

Sky should have known. No one can sensibly dispute it. Hell, they might have known - he might have been their magic man.

But the assumption that they must have known? B's just tried to throw dopeology at us, despite the fact it had nothing till 2012. It doesn't hold water.
 
Aug 5, 2012
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martinvickers said:
100%.

Sky should have known. No one can sensibly dispute it. Hell, they might have known - he might have been their magic man.

But the assumption that they must have known? B's just tried to throw dopeology at us, despite the fact it had nothing till 2012. It doesn't hold water.

Agreed, I enjoy talking about ascent times and bilharzia as much as the next person (genuinely) but to me Leinders is the thing that could go somewhere, there are dots to join that could lead to showing Sky knowingly hired a successful doping doctor, now maybe those dots will lie (not unheard of in cycling!) or maybe Sky didn't actually know but some honesty around the facts and what was known when would be appreciated.
 
Jul 21, 2012
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martinvickers said:
100%.

Sky should have known. No one can sensibly dispute it. Hell, they might have known - he might have been their magic man.

But the assumption that they must have known? B's just tried to throw dopeology at us, despite the fact it had nothing till 2012. It doesn't hold water.

He might or he might not. Maybe they just hired him because he is such a nice guy? Or maybe the ex Rabo guys were telling Brailsford what an amazing doctor he is. Strange that they wouldnt mention anything about the doping though?

What do you think Martin?
 
brailsford claims to be the cleverest man in the room. Unlike in real life, where such people usually end up on a street corner where their claims to be special fall on death pedestrian ears, in sport such people are sometimes rewarded and manage to accumulate for themselves a hero worship fanbase (see mourinho).

So brailsford claims he is so great at his job that he can provide through his own hard work, physical boosts for his riders far far superior than peds ever could.

Yet this modern day einstein, who once again can turn nobodies like wiggins and froome into the 2 greatest cyclist that ever lived, apparently, having made a bunch of promises about who he would and wouldn't hire, took on Leinders without even a background check. From the guy who claims to leave no stone unturned.

And thats the crux of the issue with geert. Its one thing for someone not to know. Its another for a guy and team who shout from the rooftops until everyones ears bleed just how great they are at this sort of thing, to miss it.

Cyivel said:
Agreed, I enjoy talking about ascent times and bilharzia as much as the next person (genuinely) but to me Leinders is the thing that could go somewhere, there are dots to join that could lead to showing Sky knowingly hired a successful doping doctor, now maybe those dots will lie (not unheard of in cycling!) or maybe Sky didn't actually know but some honesty around the facts and what was known when would be appreciated.

Where could it go? Sky have already dug themselves the Armstrong trench - innocent unless you prove it in court.

Its already clear they have been lying through their teeth on a number of issues. If it came out theyve been doing so on Lienders, they couldn't care less, they know they are dishonest, all they care about is that that "proof" doesn't come out.
 

martinvickers

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Oct 15, 2012
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the sceptic said:
He might or he might not. Maybe they just hired him because he is such a nice guy? Or maybe the ex Rabo guys were telling Brailsford what an amazing doctor he is. Strange that they wouldnt mention anything about the doping though?

What do you think Martin?

I think it's decidely odd you think it strange that the ex Rabobank guys on Sky would not out him. Seems you've had a bit of a commonsense bypass when it comes to basic human nature.

Tell me, why on earth would De Jongh, for example, tell Brailsford or anyone else about Leinders hands all over systematic Rabo doping? Given that would -

a) pretty much be an admission that he doped himself, and/or
b) quite possibly rile Leinders into spilling the beans

and thus get him (De Jongh) the sack
?

Why would De Jongh commit professional Hari kiri? You tell me.

You seem to think it the most likely thing in the world, and need explanation otherwise. Someone else might think keeping schtumm to keep your job a perfectly likely scenario.

Fran Millar more or less hinted it today herself - you'll have to ask De Jongh what he said, and why. Which is brave, if De jongh has just been sacked and outed for a scheme they were all in on, and now has nowt to lose.

We also 'know' that Leinders painted an anti-doping story to Steve Peters, at least that's what's been said. What's the odds De Jongh warned him what he needed to say?

There are threads to pull here, and dots to join. I've said De Jongh was the key from ages ago. BUT, there's a lot of people have drawn up to three, furiously looking for 5. The LAST thing an (ex) doper will do at Sky is voluntarily draw his bosses attention to his previous misdemeanors...
 

martinvickers

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Oct 15, 2012
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The Hitch said:
brailsford claims to be the cleverest man in the room.

Source?

Unlike in real life, where such people usually end up on a street corner where their claims to be special fall on death pedestrian ears, in sport such people are sometimes rewarded and manage to accumulate for themselves a hero worship fanbase (see mourinho).

Jose has won 7 leagues in 10 years across spain, portugal, italy and England; european cups in portugal (!!) and italy. I don't think his claims of 'specialness' are falling on any deaf ears...way to pick the crappest example possible!

So brailsford claims he is so great at his job that he can provide through his own hard work, physical boosts for his riders far far superior than peds ever could.

Source?

Yet this modern day einstein, who once again can turn nobodies like wiggins and froome into the 2 greatest cyclist that ever lived, apparently, having made a bunch of promises about who he would and wouldn't hire, took on Leinders without even a background check. From the guy who claims to leave no stone unturned.

The two greatest cyclists who ever lived? Are you bonkers? 1 tour each, and a handful of podiums in the vuelta and they're better than Mercx, hinault? Touching 6.0 kg/W on some climbs and they beat Pantani?

Seriously, what are you smoking?

Wiggins has a very wide palamares I grant you, much of which predates Sky and even Brailsford. But this hyperbolic nonsense only strengthens the argument that this is not analysis, but hysteria
 
Dec 23, 2012
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martinvickers said:
I think it's decidely odd you think it strange that the ex Rabobank guys on Sky would not out him. Seems you've had a bit of a commonsense bypass when it comes to basic human nature.

Tell me, why on earth would De Jongh, for example, tell Brailsford or anyone else about Leinders hands all over systematic Rabo doping? Given that would -

a) pretty much be an admission that he doped himself, and/or
b) quite possibly rile Leinders into spilling the beans

and thus get him (De Jongh) the sack
?

Why would De Jongh commit professional Hari kiri? You tell me.

You seem to think it the most likely thing in the world, and need explanation otherwise. Someone else might think keeping schtumm to keep your job a perfectly likely scenario.

Fran Millar more or less hinted it today herself - you'll have to ask De Jongh what he said, and why. Which is brave, if De jongh has just been sacked and outed for a scheme they were all in on, and now has nowt to lose.

We also 'know' that Leinders painted an anti-doping story to Steve Peters, at least that's what's been said. What's the odds De Jongh warned him what he needed to say?

There are threads to pull here, and dots to join. I've said De Jongh was the key from ages ago. BUT, there's a lot of people have drawn up to three, furiously looking for 5. The LAST thing an (ex) doper will do at Sky is voluntarily draw his bosses attention to his previous misdemeanors...

Could it be that back then, when they hired Leinders, Brailsford wasn't that really anti-doping to begin with?

Didn't the Zero Tolerance BS came after Leinders and the reasoned decision?
 
la_bicicleta said:
Could it be that back then, when they hired Leinders, Brailsford wasn't that really anti-doping to begin with?

Didn't the Zero Tolerance BS came after Leinders and the reasoned decision?

The Zero Tolerance was loudly proclaimed at the inception of the team, actually. They heralded how they had turned riders down because of their biopassport. However, after their growing pains in 2010 (perhaps due to the management's inexperience at dealing with road cycling, perhaps due to the underwhelming roster, perhaps due to the difficulties inherent in finding DSes, soigneurs, mechanics and senior riders of the requisite experience without any connection to doping at all) this policy was quietly loosened ahead of 2011, which is when they started signing known dodgy guys like Mick Rogers, and when Geert Leinders joined the team, ostensibly if you believe Brailsford to treat saddle sores.

Because the Zero Tolerance policy was so loudly proclaimed at inception and then withdrawn so quietly (like a hack tabloid printing enormous accusations as headlines then the retraction in a one-paragraph small print article on page 29), many casual fans were not aware of any relaxation of this zero tolerance, which meant that in the wake of the Reasoned Decision, when riders and staff at Team Sky were mentioned (Rogers, Yates) and when Rasmussen's earlier confessions led to the investigation into Leinders beginning in Belgium and de Jongh being tied up in it, Brailsford had to pull a tearful, indignant "we were lied to!" line in order to preserve face, because many questions had been posed in the wake of their 2012 triumph and few had been answered satisfactorily by the team themselves (remember them announcing they'd do an investigation into Leinders - you know, the kind of background check they should have done in 2010 - in July, then hoping it would be swept away by the Olympic fervour, so that when Brailsford was asked about how that investigation was going on at the World Championships he - literally - ran away from the question?).

The big problem is, a rider can be jettisoned. Riders aren't always tied in to team doping programs. Steve Houanard doped because Ag2r weren't going to renew his contract and he wanted to keep the dream alive and attract other teams to sign him. Aleksandr Serebryakov had visa problems and had only met his new Euskaltel teammates a handful of times before he was busted far from where any of them were or would have been. So a rider gets tied in to something, and they can kick him out as having 'gone rogue', 'let the team down', and all those clichéd but often truthful criticisms that get leveled at such riders. Especially if, as with Rogers, de Jongh et al, the indiscretions date to times prior to Team Sky, as it gives them plausible deniability in the eyes of the public (I don't see how they can have plausible deniability in the eyes of the more seasoned fan in respect of Rogers, since his past as a Ferrari client was known, and he was named by Sinkewitz as one of the T-Mobile guys at the Freiburg clinic). A team doctor is different. The doctor's tendrils go into every rider. Riders could even be doping without knowing it - remember Jesús Hernández telling us of the "heating massage pads" that turned out to be synthetic testosterone? The doctor's reputation can cause damage even if no doping has been committed - who would ever believe anybody saying that they worked with Conconi, del Moral, Ferrari, Fuentes, Losa or Maynar over the last couple of years and it was entirely devoid of doping? Geert Leinders was a doping doctor. Is he still? We don't know. But he was a doping doctor, and though his name was pretty obscure prior to the time he was with Sky, his name still appeared in court documents related to the subject (based on the Rasmussen case) and given that Sky trumpeted up at every opportunity their "attention to detail", stated so often it was an endless mantra, you would have thought that given how much their reputation is staked on the cleanliness of this sports team, their "attention to detail" would consist of more than Brailsford asking the boys, anybody know a doctor we can get, Steve de Jongh piping up, saying, the guy we had at Rabo was good, and Brailsford dispatching Peters for a one-off interview, before hiring him without further investigation. That's barely due diligence, let alone attention to detail.

Lots of teams have hired dodgy doctors over the years. Few of those teams have transformed their results as spectacularly shortly after hiring that doctor, and only one team has achieved this while claiming their fantastic attention to detail. That is the crux of the matter, and that is why they get jumped on as much as anything else.

Damnit, I said I was done with the over-long posts in the Sky threads in the Clinic.
 
clever

The Hitch said:
brailsford claims to be the cleverest man in the room.

And thats the crux of the issue with geert. Its one thing for someone not to know. Its another for a guy and team who shout from the rooftops until everyones ears bleed just how great they are at this sort of thing, to miss it.

Where could it go? Sky have already dug themselves the Armstrong trench - innocent unless you prove it in court.

Its already clear they have been lying through their teeth on a number of issues. If it came out theyve been doing so on Lienders, they couldn't care less, they know they are dishonest, all they care about is that that "proof" doesn't come out.

complete bollox of course I see DB as the administrator rather than the doer
........hiring in experts to get the job done

as others state we know better now re leinders

no need for court action if there is inpropietry we will hear

Mark L
 
May 26, 2010
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del1962 said:
JV in July 2012 Tweeted he had no idea who Geert was

https://twitter.com/Vaughters/status/222044650683371521

people are saying that cycling is such a tight knit community that everyone knows everyone, however JV who probably knows a lot more than DB about the doping culture did not know who Leinders was.

And you believe him? Thomas Dekker, Hesjedal, or Maaskant didn't tell JV who their doctor was at Rabo? Sorry no dice.

JV selling clean cycling is not going to call out Sky now is he?