Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[del1962]

For those who have been accusing Richard Keys of bitterness against Sky. Was he sacked or did he leave?

I think he left.

Pretty much forced out because of sexist comments he and AG made.

 

[gooner]

For those who have been accusing Richard Keys of bitterness against Sky. Was he sacked or did he leave?

I think he left.

Pretty obvious Sky wanted rid of him as well and he knew it. Even after the Sian Massey episode, all off a sudden there was more earlier videos released like the Charlotte Jackson video with Gray and Keys's conversation with Jamie Redknapp.

Who do you think leaked all this out?

 

[thehog]

It's the same as Armstrong's backdated prescription.

Richard knows his stuff.

Yes. You clearly miss the implied irony.

The Skybots are backdating JTL to Endura.

Even though his anomaly by all accounts was with British Cycling training with Sky.

The play on words which you missed was Sky are "backdating" JTL to Endura.

Did you not see that? Or do you need it at David Walsh butterfly on the shoulder level of description?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I aint racing in WT races and getting tested for what i put in my body with the possibilty of a 2 - 4 year ban.

Rogers deserves a ban for having Clen in his body. Whether it got there from contamination because he was 'hungry' or because he is a known doper either way stupid fool deserves at min 2 years.

Rogers is supposed to be a professional and responsible for what goes into his body.

You may not be a WT racer, but the rule is simply impossible to follow. You never can have absolute control of what goes into your body. Especially not as an athlete where you depend on people around you (team-mates, trainers, docs, and yes cooks).
The rule is stupid, not the riders. You can´t take food from europe and eat it one week later in china, simply b/c it would have damaged (especially meat, frozen or not, it doesn´t stay fresh longer than 2/3 days)

 

[Benotti69]

Pretty obvious Sky wanted rid of him as well and he knew it. Even after the Sian Massey episode, all off a sudden there was more earlier videos released like the Charlotte Jackson video with Gray and Keys's conversation with Jamie Redknapp.

Who do you think leaked all this out?

Good to see you are so clued in on Richard keys.

 

[del1962]

Good to see you are so clued in on Richard keys.

It was a major news story at the time

 

[Benotti69]

You may not be a WT racer, but the rule is simply impossible to follow. You never can have absolute control of what goes into your body. Especially not as an athlete where you depend on people around you (team-mates, trainers, docs, and yes cooks).

Thems the rules.

The rule is stupid, not the riders. You can´t take food from europe and eat it one week later in china, simply b/c it would have damaged (especially meat, frozen or not, it doesn´t stay fresh longer than 2/3 days)

It doesn't stop plenty of people transporting blood around the world. Packing food to travel around the world aint nothing new. That anyone trying to use the excuse that Saxo couldn't get 'clean' food from EU to China for the team is BS.

 

[pastronef]

it's getting near and nearer

we needed a good topic (2 good ones: JTL and Rogers) to talk during the holidays

I feel that's just the beginning. we are getting near and nearer.. Sky still has not been hit in the center, cause Endura and Saxo are the teams involved

but when they'll get hit... wow... the servers at CyclingNews will implode and be down until Omloop Het Volk 2015

 

[gooner]

Yes. You clearly miss the implied irony.

The Skybots are backdating JTL to Endura.

Even though his anomaly by all accounts was with British Cycling training with Sky.

He was doing it then with Sky "as you say", so why wasn't he smashing it this year and instead struggling in races like Pais Vasco?

The play on words which you missed was Sky are "backdating" JTL to Endura.

It's Cookson's idea just like it was Hein's.

Did you not see that? Or do you need it at David Walsh butterfly on the shoulder level of description?

I got the description good. Keys is the Walsh of old, remember.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Thems the rules.

It doesn't stop plenty of people transporting blood around the world. Packing food to travel around the world aint nothing new. That anyone trying to use the excuse that Saxo couldn't get 'clean' food from EU to China for the team is BS.

Maybe teams should keep meat shock-frozen and carry it around the world just to please a stupid rule.
I´d prefer fresh food still, so do 50% of riders...

 

[Benotti69]

Maybe teams should keep meat shock-frozen and carry it around the world just to please a stupid rule.
I´d prefer fresh food still, so do 50% of riders...

Sorry mate teams not being professional about their riders going to a country like China are plain stupid. That 50% took the risk just means that 50% were stupid. They dont get a pass because they took the risk.

Flying food in to China doesn't mean it isn't fresh.

 

[thehog]

He was doing it then with Sky "as you say", so why wasn't he smashing it this year and instead struggling in races like Pais Vasco?



It's Cookson's idea just like it was Hein's.



I got the description good. Keys is the Walsh of old, remember.

It doesn't matter what JTL was doing prior. The passport committee will only look the data presented.

Which is from BC World Championships to September 13.

All of which was with British Cycling, training with Sky and contracted to Sky.

Not hard is it?

It's not an Endura problem but one of Sky.

 

[Morbius]

It doesn't matter what JTL was doing prior. The passport committee will only look the data presented.

Which is from BC World Championships to September 13.

All of which was with British Cycling, training with Sky and contracted to Sky.

Not hard is it?

It's not an Endura problem but one of Sky.

But his period of good performance ended with the WC in 2012. If that is the suspicious reading then it points away from Sky / BC. It's possible he was doing his own programme without knowledge of Sky or Endura, and stopped with the better testing at WT level.

BTW: Does anyone know what sort of lab tests a WT team has access to? They can measure HCT count but what else can they test for?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Flying food in to China doesn't mean it isn't fresh.

If it´s shock-frozen (the only way to keep it eatable after 3 days), it´s not fresh anymore.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I have food over three days old in my refrigerator.

 

[veganrob]

If it´s shock-frozen (the only way to keep it eatable after 3 days), it´s not fresh anymore.

What do you expect them to do, kill the fuqkin cow at the table. I don't even eat the *** and know meat can be Cryovac and keep 4-6 weeks refrigerated. I can't believe any ProTour team is going to go into a country like China and leave there riders to go find their meals at MacDonlds. Give me break. They are going to protect their investments, riders.
It would be so easy to transport food to China and be able to keep fot 7-10 days and still serve nutritious and healthy meals to the riders and other employees. This is 2013, not 1865 for crying out loud. They have millions of dollars budget. They are not hitch hiking across the continent with no money.

 

[thehog]

But his period of good performance ended with the WC in 2012. If that is the suspicious reading then it points away from Sky / BC. It's possible he was doing his own programme without knowledge of Sky or Endura, and stopped with the better testing at WT level.

BTW: Does anyone know what sort of lab tests a WT team has access to? They can measure HCT count but what else can they test for?

I know. I know. I want it to be Endura as well. I really do.

But he was with Sky when this "problem" occurred.

What should we do? Tell the passport committee he was more *** in January therefore and despite his blood results is clean with Sky?

Sadly he doped for the WC and after. That's what the blood says.

Anything prior won't be considered.

Sorry, I know it doesn't fit the Brailsford narrative.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

BTW: Does anyone know what sort of lab tests a WT team has access to? They can measure HCT count but what else can they test for?

I am not sure if you need a medical license to buy a sysmex machine, but all the teams have at least one doctor on staff, so purchasing said machine should not be difficult at all.

You could do just about any test you want, and according to JV, he spends $500k per year doing just that to make sure his team don't test positive er dope.

 

[Morbius]

I know. I know. I want it to be Endura as well. I really do.

But he was with Sky when this "problem" occurred.

What should we do? Tell the passport committee he was more *** in January therefore and despite his blood results is clean with Sky?

Sadly he doped for the WC and after. That's what the blood says.

Anything prior won't be considered.

Sorry, I know it doesn't fit the Brailsford narrative.

I don't 'want' Sky to be in the clear, but right now the evidence is not against them, though that may change.

Do we "know he doped for the WC and after"? I thought the BP case was triggered because the WC was different from after. I've lost track of who said what so maybe that was Sky's description.

 

[the sceptic]

Where is the evidence they are clean?

 

[thehog]

I don't 'want' Sky to be in the clear, but right now the evidence is not against them, though that may change.

Do we "know he doped for the WC and after"? I thought the BP case was triggered because the WC was different from after. I've lost track of who said what so maybe that was Sky's description.

Well yes I don't think Brailsford has been be honest with the situation. Technically DB is correct. JTL was contracted to Endura but he was with BC and Sky during the period in question.

Now we know BC is Sky and Sky is BC and Endura had handed over JTL for the last quarter of 2012.

Everyone knows JTL was *** for most of 2012 and that's what everyone is looking at but that's not what the passport panel will be looking into. They can only look at the data presented and overlay his results from races to make their determination.

JTL poor performances in 2013 don't really help Sky or BC.

Because if they try to argue the WCs was "natural" then 2013 is what? "Unnatural"? Which means he's doping at Sky and not performing. Barado is good example of this. Results are not outstanding but as his profile played out over the months it starts to mimic the he ebb and flow of a doper.

They are a stuck because if Walsh is correct as it is "low rectics" is an impossible condition to explain when results are good and when bad they return to normal.

I hope that makes some sense. Sky are basically dammed no matter what way they attempt to explain the anomaly.

It could well be the case that Brailsford has been served up a hot potato and now is stuck dealing with it. That being the case then he's an idiot. He took the guy on with full knowledge that the French were questioning him. But more to the point they didn't need JTL. At the time they had Wiggins, Froome and countless others to ride the Sky train home for the next 5 years. I believe that would be chequebook hiring gone mad. They wanted to be the biggest and the baddest and didn't conduct their due diligence.

Either that or they've doped JTL into AICAR induced anaemia.

All possible.

 

[Morbius]

What do we (think) we know?
He had suspiciously good performances throughout 2012, first with Endura and then with BC (links to Sky).
He was tested at WC 2012, while under BC
He performed extraordinarily well at WC2012 at a distance he hadn't raced before.
His internal team testing in 2012 did not raise suspicion of either Garmin or Sky.
He performed poorly in 2013 under Sky
His 2012 blood test results are anomolous from 2013 though we don't know in what way.

The likely conclusion is that he was doping throughout 2012 under both Endura and BC, and that he may not have doped in 2013. I think it points to either Endura, or to JTL doping on his own. The alternative is that both Endura and BC conspired together, but that doesn't make sense with what happened in 2013.

Why did they hire him? Who else on the team could win LBL??

 

[thehog]

What do we (think) we know?
He had suspiciously good performances throughout 2012, first with Endura and then with BC (links to Sky).
He was tested at WC 2012, while under BC
He performed extraordinarily well at WC2012 at a distance he hadn't raced before.
His internal team testing in 2012 did not raise suspicion of either Garmin or Sky.
He performed poorly in 2013 under Sky
His 2012 blood test results are anomolous from 2013 though we don't know in what way.

The likely conclusion is that he was doping throughout 2012 under both Endura and BC, and that he may not have doped in 2013. I think it points to either Endura, or to JTL doping on his own. The alternative is that both Endura and BC conspired together, but that doesn't make sense with what happened in 2013.

Why did they hire him? Who else on the team could win LBL??

Yes but what is likely and what is under review is different.

They are only looking at WC onwards. BC and Sky.

In effect his Endura time had come to an end.

He very well may have been doping at Endura all year but that is not under review.

So pointing to that timeframe is fruitless because there is simply no data from that period which will tell anyone whether he was doping or not.

In terms if internal testing it should be noted that this is a snapshot in time.

Neither Sky or Garmin can gain much knowledge of doping if an athlete turns up clean. The passport in this case is almost 12 months of testing. Sky or a Garmin can only get a 2 week view. And in JTLs case they had no passport data to correlate their own testing to. So they could only go on a few tests alone.

Now if Sky did test him and noted that he'll be a super responder then proceeded to juice him up into sickness then that may be a problem.

This is a Sky problem. And a big one because if the kid goes down he'll never be hired again by anyone. Sky have got him on a gag order at the moment but you don't want a JTL going rouge here. Sky are protecting & taking good care of him and for good reason.

The boy knows things.

 

[Morbius]

They are only looking at WC onwards. BC and Sky.

If the conclusion was that he was doping at WC and not afterwards (a big if, but feasible) then it is embarrasing to Sky but no more. People will draw the conclusions that his doping was all prior to joining Sky based on his 2012 performance.

 

[thehog]

If the conclusion was that he was doping at WC and not afterwards (a big if, but feasible) then it is embarrasing to Sky but no more. People will draw the conclusions that his doping was all prior to joining Sky based on his 2012 performance.

Sure. Possible. But not probable.

That's what Brailsford would like you to think.

BC and Sky are intrinsically linked. Sky is BCs & vice versa.

Brailsford tells us that Sky are clean because of his clean BC track record.

JTL was all but Sky in uniform from Sept 1 onwards. He was training with them and competing for BC.

That's a problem for Sky/BC. And as you say BC/Endura have no relationship so nothing to do with Endura.

Endura is not running a doping program. That would be a long bow to draw to believe that.

Sky have the resources. And JTL has already confirmed he was doing blood testing in April/May with Sky.

Sky's/BC fingerprints are all over this.