Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Morbius]

Sky's/BC fingerprints are all over this.

Sure, if you believe in the Sky / BC doping conspiracy, then this could be the first crack in the dam. Based purely on this case though the evidence so far points either to Endura or JTL as a lone doper.

There's enough suspicion about Sky's performance that if or when they are actually accused of doping they should not get the benefit of the doubt. However so far this case is not one that points clearly to Sky guilt.

 

[thehog]

Sure, if you believe in the Sky / BC doping conspiracy, then this could be the first crack in the dam. Based purely on this case though the evidence so far points either to Endura or JTL as a lone doper.

There's enough suspicion about Sky's performance that if or when they are actually accused of doping they should not get the benefit of the doubt. However so far this case is not one that points clearly to Sky guilt.

Not sure the word conspiracy needs to be used.

Cyclists dope. Teams dope. National federation allow doping. Nothing conspiratorial about that. It's just what happens and has happened for the best part of 40 years.

In regards to JTL Endura "lone doping theory" there's actually no evidence apart from his performances.

The evidence the passport panel has before them is from BC/Sky/Sky timeframe.

It's fairly straightforward.

JTL/Endura pre-September 2012 is not in question here.

That is only discussion & speculation for Internet forums.

Stick to the facts and all roads point to Sky/BC.

 

[Morbius]

The evidence the passport panel has before them is from BC/Sky/Sky timeframe.

Sure but if the anomalous reading is from WC 2012 then Sky will simply sack him and say 'nothing to do with us'. It will be embarrasing, but more about their hiring policy than anything else.

 

[Benotti69]

What do we (think) we know?
He had suspiciously good performances throughout 2012, first with Endura and then with BC (links to Sky).
He was tested at WC 2012, while under BC
He performed extraordinarily well at WC2012 at a distance he hadn't raced before.
His internal team testing in 2012 did not raise suspicion of either Garmin or Sky.
He performed poorly in 2013 under Sky
His 2012 blood test results are anomolous from 2013 though we don't know in what way.

The likely conclusion is that he was doping throughout 2012 under both Endura and BC, and that he may not have doped in 2013. I think it points to either Endura, or to JTL doping on his own. The alternative is that both Endura and BC conspired together, but that doesn't make sense with what happened in 2013.

Why did they hire him? Who else on the team could win LBL??

How do we know it didn't raise suspicion? JV is not a truth speaker and neither is Brailsford.

Sky look bad in this.

 

[Benotti69]

Sure but if the anomalous reading is from WC 2012 then Sky will simply sack him and say 'nothing to do with us'. It will be embarrasing, but more about their hiring policy than anything else.

No, Sky will say it has nothing to do with them but no one will buy that.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

No, Sky will say it has nothing to do with them but no one will buy that.

Oh... I buy it (& many others too I think).
I mean everybody can spin as much they want to connect the Saxo positive (Rogers) and the Endura case (JTL) to Sky. But the fact remains, both cases happened outside their team. After 5.000 posts, it´s still only a (half)one-hit-wonder (Leinders). Let´s see the count after 10.000...

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Where is the evidence they are clean?

Shouldn´t it be the other way around? Evidence for guilt?

 

[thehog]

Shouldn´t it be the other way around? Evidence for guilt?

Plenty of evidence either way.

What's lacking is proof.

 

[The Hitch]

After 5.000 posts, it´s still only a (half)one-hit-wonder (Leinders). Let´s see the count after 10.000...

Any evidence against Horner yet?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Any evidence against Horner yet?

See my Horner posts past month...

 

[Benotti69]

Oh... I buy it (& many others too I think).
I mean everybody can spin as much they want to connect the Saxo positive (Rogers) and the Endura case (JTL) to Sky. But the fact remains, both cases happened outside their team. After 5.000 posts, it´s still only a (half)one-hit-wonder (Leinders). Let´s see the count after 10.000...

Sorry to hear you believe Sky and cant see past the end of your nose.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I don´t believe any riders. But for me Sky is within the norm of other teams like AST, Movistar, Ag2r, etc. Nothing unusual, nothing like Horner or DiLuca/Santa. Plus, no evidence... That is it.

 

[The Hitch]

See my Horner posts past month...

You mean the ones that go "Waaaaaaah it's so unfair that a guy I didn't want to win won. Everyone knows he's doping".

No they don't count as evidence. Far less actually than most posts on Horner.
You want people to offer more.on sky than.insane performances and lies ? You better suck it up then that by your own standards Horner is clean as a whistle and as legit a champion as cycling has had since the middle.of.last century.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

You mean the ones that go "Waaaaaaah it's so unfair that a guy I didn't want to win won. Everyone knows he's doping".

No they don't count as evidence. Far less actually than most posts on Horner.
You want people to offer more.on sky than.insane performances and lies ? You better suck it up then that by your own standards Horner is clean as a whistle and as legit a champion as cycling has had since the middle.of.last century.

No I mean the one i explained everything step by step with what is evidence and what not.... until you came around to mix Wiggins/Sky into a wrong thread...

 

[The Hitch]

No I mean the one i explained everything step by step with what is evidence and what not.... until you came around to mix Wiggins/Sky into a wrong thread...

You have a link for that?

 

[the sceptic]

Shouldn´t it be the other way around? Evidence for guilt?

Why? Does the clinic sanction riders?

Evidence, broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion.

In a philosophical debate, there is an implicit burden of proof on the party asserting a claim, since the default position is generally one of neutrality or unbelief. Each party in a debate will therefore carry the burden of proof for any assertion they make in the argument, although some assertions may be granted by the other party without further evidence. If the debate is set up as a resolution to be supported by one side and refuted by another, the overall burden of proof is on the side supporting the resolution.

 

[Beech Mtn]

Keys covered the Tour for years and worked for SkyTV.

David Walsh gave up on covering the Tour and only came back this year when invited to write about Sky and be paid for it.

Walsh bitter about Armstrong.

Keys bitter about losing his job.

What's the difference?

After seeing the recent discussions about Keys, I had to laugh when I started reading the Sean Kelly book, and there in the Foreword by Bradley Wiggins was this:

I remember watching Channel Four as a kid, and Richard Keys, who was presenting in those days, always made a lot of Sean, whether it was the Tour, the Kellogg's city centre criteriums, or the Kellogg's Tour of Britain.

Wiggo cites Keys as a source!

 

[Pandora]

Sorry mate teams not being professional about their riders going to a country like China are plain stupid. That 50% took the risk just means that 50% were stupid. They dont get a pass because they took the risk.

Flying food in to China doesn't mean it isn't fresh.

I'm not sure how are the customs rules in China, but i'm pretty sure nobody's allowed to transport raw meat over the border, either fresh or frozen. So, you simply cannot show at the airport with a mobile fridge full of raw meat. If you'd like to have something to eat that won't make you positive, you'll need to find a legal importer of ingredients or to live 10-15 days on canned meat or to turn being a vegetarian for a while.

It was simple for Contador's friend to bring that steak in France - there is no customs between Frace and Spain, but China is a different story. It has nothing to do with not being professional.

 

[red_flanders]

No I mean the one i explained everything step by step with what is evidence and what not.... until you came around to mix Wiggins/Sky into a wrong thread...

You really need to be able to step back and see the double standard you employ wrt Horner versus how you view Sky. It's difficult for the reader to believe you really don't see it. At least in my case.

Root for Sky, it's great and no problem of course. But don't try and sell us that one unbelievable performance is clean and the other is not.

 

[The Hitch]

You really need to be able to step back and see the double standard you employ wrt Horner versus how you view Sky. It's difficult for the reader to believe you really don't see it. At least in my case.

Root for Sky, it's great and no problem of course. But don't try and sell us that one unbelievable performance is clean and the other is not.

But theres a difference. As Foxxy pointed out Sky have never tested positive. 200 000 posts or whatever in this thread and still they never tested positive.

With Chris Horner on the other hand.

Oh, wait.

 

[Benotti69]

I'm not sure how are the customs rules in China, but i'm pretty sure nobody's allowed to transport raw meat over the border, either fresh or frozen. So, you simply cannot show at the airport with a mobile fridge full of raw meat. If you'd like to have something to eat that won't make you positive, you'll need to find a legal importer of ingredients or to live 10-15 days on canned meat or to turn being a vegetarian for a while.

Again with the excuses. The ToB is on the calendar. The teams know in advance they will be going. They have plenty of time to organise themselves for it. Logistics to ensure the riders are looked after etc is all part of being a pro team. WADA issued warnings about eating meat in China in 2011!!!! The teams have no excuses.

It was simple for Contador's friend to bring that steak in France - there is no customs between Frace and Spain, but China is a different story. It has nothing to do with not being professional.

Yeah sure Contador ate a contaminated steak and I am santa claus! Even CAS didn't believe that.


Rogers should be embarrassed to be caught because of his stupidtiy, whether doping or contaminated meat. Deserves min 2 years

 

[Beech Mtn]

<snipped>

Rogers should be embarrassed to be caught because of his stupidtiy, whether doping or contaminated meat. Deserves min 2 years

Does the same apply to Jonathan Breyne? 22 years old, riding for peanuts on a conti team, went poz at some ****-small race, where who knows what kind of meals were provided (as opposed to the well-known ToBeijing traveling chefs), no known connection to either Ferrari or Freiburg. Now that he's out of the hospital, I guess he can start trying to round up the cash to pay a bunch of lawyers to try to salvage his career.

 

[thehog]

After seeing the recent discussions about Keys, I had to laugh when I started reading the Sean Kelly book, and there in the Foreword by Bradley Wiggins was this:

Wiggo cites Keys as a source!

Wiggo is the gift that just keeps giving!

 

[Pandora]

Again with the excuses. The ToB is on the calendar. The teams know in advance they will be going. They have plenty of time to organise themselves for it. Logistics to ensure the riders are looked after etc is all part of being a pro team. WADA issued warnings about eating meat in China in 2011!!!! The teams have no excuses.

Just to make sure we understand each other: since we are in the Sky thread : yes, Sky are dirty, Contador was doping, but neverthless could've eaten that bloody contaminated steak. Rogers? Well, his case reminds me of Al Capone who got busted for tax evasion.

But, pro teams or not, I simply cannot imagine them organizing transport of food of certified origin across half of the world. And this really can be the food contamination case.

 

[bobbins]

But theres a difference. As Foxxy pointed out Sky have never tested positive. 200 000 posts or whatever in this thread and still they never tested positive.

With Chris Horner on the other hand.

Oh, wait.

Haven't they?