Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Galic Ho]

I've been in this situation many a time in a bike race. I've been riding in climbs where they're go so fast I'm at my limit just holding a wheel. You can't attack.

It's the same with Sky. You can't attack early because Rogers and Porte are going at such a speed consistently that you can't get away. Even if you do they don't actually chase you but their speed eventually picks you up.

That's what most of the people posting stuff that supports Sky as clean don't get. This is the hardest thing in the world to do as an athlete. Day in and day out. It is that physically draining. If you are almost on your maximum just holding on, how on earth do you roll past everyone with an attack? Even if you are at 80-85% to make a gap and gain time, you have to go much higher. Much higher.

But Evans and co aren't at 85%. They are well over 90%. It's the numbers in the long run that get you. Sure you bridge a gap, but you pay for it. Their aggregate median speed is simply higher than your total. They burn you out. That's how doping when it's done right works. It's about moving the bell curve to the right. Your average goes up in every terrain. Your maximal threshold goes up. You do more work for the same physical effort. It makes you feel invincible. That's why Mick Rogers was there last night.

You're right. The only way is to force them into error. Theres no other way. But to do that you have to take extreme risks and early. Tomorrow would be a good time to do it. When the peloton is still thick with riders which what causes crashes.

Alas Nibs wants to hold onto 3rd so he'll stay with Sky on the remaining stages.

I got the impression from Thursdays stage Cadel was trying immediately but Nibali wasn't. They didn't appear to be working together. There is another way to make the race interesting. A ran dance. Make it rain out there. Or pray the ladies behind team Sky's riders make some drama and Froome goes on the offensive. Even the juggernaut of Astana 2009 couldn't manage a 1-2 on the Tour podium. Let alone half way through the race and with it obvious nobody can topple them.

 

[180mmCrank]

So I am reading a lot of

"They must be doping...it isn't possible... We all know ... Etc etc"

I may be missing something but I am not seeing or hearing any evidence. And I have plenty of sympathy for those fans of cycling who have been let down so many times in the past ... I am one of them too!! AND that is certainly reason enough to be suspicious - no complaints from me.

The bit I struggle with is the total disregard for any possibility that they may be doing this without cheating... Because there doesn't seem to be any real evidence. I will be both happy and disappointed to be pointed in the direction of something a little more concrete.

I have my flame proof jacket on

T

 

[blackcat]

Yep. And last year was a credible Tour, the most credible I've seen. The only reason it didn't look like this year, though, was because mutton chops broke his collar bone. Otherwise we'd have been saying then what we're saying now.

Evans should be ****ed off. This was probably his last chance to win. For myself, I feel I was robbed. Robbed of seeing a great Tour like last year, and robbed of the $29.99 I paid NBC Sports to watch it. I haven't watched since Stage 7, and don't plan to watch. I'd rather have my eyes gouged out with empty CERA vials than watch this.

most credible is a bit of a misnomer.

still =/= credible.

 

[blackcat]

I've never head that before. Never. Rogers and Evans have two and a half years age difference between them. Heard their figures before.

Heck I've never even heard Evans has been to Tasmania. I know the name of the big hill in Tasmania, but it's not on the tip of my tongue at this moment. It's not easy. 10km @ nearly 10% gradient if I remember.

My point was Evans is the benchmark for the Aussie guys. Heard the comparisons with Rogers many times. Porte? Never heard a thing. You must have missed my point a few pages back. I literally had heard nothing about him till he popped up at Saxo.

It's a lot easier to find stuff on the AIS guys. The track program guys. VO2max figures, FTP numbers when they are 20-22. From what I remember, Porte wasn't even riding at 20.

Evans about 2000 he had the record. Porte matched it in 2007ish.

Ferrari has Rogers testing numbers. Armstrong said he thought Rogers could win the Tour. Guess where Armstrong got Rogers numbers from?

 

[Blakeslee]

In other words, Sky are dominating a weak field, weakened by the fact that the top 2 contenders are absent

This argument has been coming up quite a bit. What bothers me about this argument is Contador is currently serving a suspension and Andy's performances in years past are suspect considering his brother's money transfer to Dr. Fuentes. While both are probably still talented riders, both became the top two contenders likely in part through doping.

I would be careful in dismissing questions about Sky's dominating performance so far in this year's tour solely based on the contention that they are dominating a weak field. I'm not sure you can judge the strength of the field against a standard established by two riders who were likely doping, this year's field may be stronger than you think it is.

 

[Galic Ho]

are you even paying attention to this Tour? Rogers is 32 minutes back and Porte is 47 back. I guess your point is that it's impossible to have 2 riders on the same team finish 1 and 2 or be on the podium. Oh wait. That happened last year.

Oh deary me, do try and keep up with the adults.

Look at the times US Postal riders did. Hard, exceptionally tough power outputs at the start of stages. Consecutive stages. They roll a high percentage of their maximal output for not just a few clicks, but multiple kilometres. They burn off almost all the other riders and left it for one guy to hammer home or for LA to finish it off. They were minutes back. That's the job.

How many other teams have done this in recent years? Burnt off all the riders? All the big GC names, every day, since the FIRST mountain stage! No team has, since US Postal. The tell is they come back fresh faced and PULL 50 km like last night ALONE, ala Mick Rogers. Or the day before, where Richie Porte, paced everyone up a mountain and then pulled a minute, a minute back, on a GT winner on the flat! All on his own. Then they come back and do it the next day. It's the combination of bewildering performances day in and day out. The repetition. No other riders do this. No other domestiques. Rogers and Porte have never done this. Ever. Not once. Not even in 2006 after Freiburg University stints, did Rogers have this ability on an amazing T-Mobile line up.

But, of course, you ignore this once again. The obvious. The worst part is, they're doing this to obvious and well known dopers. But of course, you were unaware Nibali is on the Pellizotti special direct from Michelle Ferrari and fail to realise if Porte can single handedly pull him back, it's a major alarm. Hence why I said you should be ignored. You ignore the blatantly obvious and well known and fail to questiona anything. Would you care to disclose all your income sources? You should ask Sky for a pay cheque. You deserve one with all your efforts. They are top notch posts, reminiscent of many LA fans best work.

 

[blackcat]

I've never head that before. Never. Rogers and Evans have two and a half years age difference between them. Heard their figures before.

Heck I've never even heard Evans has been to Tasmania. I know the name of the big hill in Tasmania, but it's not on the tip of my tongue at this moment. It's not easy. 10km @ nearly 10% gradient if I remember.

My point was Evans is the benchmark for the Aussie guys. Heard the comparisons with Rogers many times. Porte? Never heard a thing. You must have missed my point a few pages back. I literally had heard nothing about him till he popped up at Saxo.

It's a lot easier to find stuff on the AIS guys. The track program guys. VO2max figures, FTP numbers when they are 20-22. From what I remember, Porte wasn't even riding at 20.

Mt Wellington.

Porte has the record. Evans rode it in 98 as part of Tour of Tasmania. Porte set record in 2008 as part of the one-day test.

http://genesysprocycling.com.au/?p=1427

point is, Porte aint a mug. One on gear one not, is but a false dichotomy.

both are. But they dont make the rider. Both get help. Both are professionals, and have phenomenal talent.

The false premise you err in, is baselining natural talent. I bet some of the riders you think are pure, were doping before they were adults. And some never even saw an organised race before their 21st bday. see porte. see froome. Evans and wiggo been in the system for about 10 years by that age.

C what I am getting at. Come late 20's, its all the same. The guys late to the sport have built their base, and built their peloton and racing skill set. But to arbitrarily differentiate themselves, cos some were world champs in the individual pursuit at world juniors, and even the seniors on the track... that is bad logic. do you have any idea on the tiny tiny fraction fraction, miniscule number who compete on the boards as juniors. Now compare this to adults who race on tarmac and lime. eh. sort of glaring the difference

 

[Ferminal]

go and ask Dale Parker what the kids in Adelaide take GH.

Serious..?

 

[joe_papp]

So I am reading a lot of

"They must be doping...it isn't possible... We all know ... Etc etc"

I may be missing something but I am not seeing or hearing any evidence. And I have plenty of sympathy for those fans of cycling who have been let down so many times in the past ... I am one of them too!! AND that is certainly reason enough to be suspicious - no complaints from me.

The bit I struggle with is the total disregard for any possibility that they may be doing this without cheating... Because there doesn't seem to be any real evidence. I will be both happy and disappointed to be pointed in the direction of something a little more concrete.

I have my flame proof jacket on

T

you're being disingenuous, too.

if anyone had "evidence" that they were doping, it wouldn't be something being discussed in the Clinic - there'd be a WADA or AFLD investigation (or whomever).

but the riding of SKY certainly has the appearance of doping, when compared to similar rides of years past witnessed by fans watching now who also had no "evidence" then of actual doping.

OF course it's possible that SKY are doing this w/o doping. Which is why Wiggins' rant against justifiable cynicism only serves to engender more suspicion!

There's no "evidence" of doping, but there's certainly the appearance of doping when their current performances are compared to scenarios extracted from the EPO and blood go-go days. You're not going to get your concrete evidence of doping unless there's actually doping going on that's discovered by the anti-doping authorities, a la Tour 2006. But likewise there was no evidence apparent at the time for the 1999-2005 period and look what's happening now.

 

[blackcat]

Serious..?

yeah. I am curious what they take.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Been reading the pages. Damn, even FoxyBrown is being fooled. Wake up man.

Yes, mainly due Tuckers numbers. OTOH, today i searched for Froome. No results before bilharzia too. So it´s back and forth in my brain.

On saturday i was pi$$ed off the Sky-Performance. Then i looked at the numbers, and circumstances, felt better. Now i am tending back to my saturday feeling, that Sky may has a better program than all other teams (thanks to inexhaustible money pool).

But one thing stands: The Tdf racing is better than the dull showing of the Giro...

I just wonder how many mins Froome would put into the field if protected and allowed to race (we shall not forget he lost 2 mins in the 1st week on a meaningless stage). Maybe 9 mins like Ullrich in 1997?

We might never find out, since if Froome becomes captain at another team, he may won´t find the all-around-program like Sky seems to have...

 

[User Guide]

you're being disingenuous, too.

if anyone had "evidence" that they were doping, it wouldn't be something being discussed in the Clinic - there'd be a WADA or AFLD investigation (or whomever).

but the riding of SKY certainly has the appearance of doping, when compared to similar rides of years past witnessed by fans watching now who also had no "evidence" then of actual doping.

OF course it's possible that SKY are doing this w/o doping. Which is why Wiggins' rant against justifiable cynicism only serves to engender more suspicion!

There's no "evidence" of doping, but there's certainly the appearance of doping when their current performances are compared to scenarios extracted from the EPO and blood go-go days. You're not going to get your concrete evidence of doping unless there's actually doping going on that's discovered by the anti-doping authorities, a la Tour 2006. But likewise there was no evidence apparent at the time for the 1999-2005 period and look what's happening now.

OK i jump on the disingenous merry go round.
Now you are being Joe,you know full well he dosent mean a +ve or the like.
But VAM,W/kg climb times etc(which btw are all very low this year)
None of the times/data suggests anything out of the ordinary,none nadda diddly squat.

 

[BroDeal]

Mt Wellington.

Porte has the record. Evans rode it in 98 as part of Tour of Tasmania. Porte set record in 2008 as part of the one-day test.

Did Evans go solo from the bottom? If not then it is a useless comparison. Evans' time would depend on how the race developed on the climb. Then there is fatigue from the previous stages and the previous kilometers of the route.

 

[UlleGigo]

Bored now, come back with real proof not heresy.

Ironic that you should misspell the word 'hearsay' and end up suggesting that this is some sort of 'witchhunt' against your man. Apparently a certain LA is the victim of a witchhunt at the moment aswell. Its the last grasp of a desperate man and its the glimpse into the future that you provide us that I find so funny. For Sky fanbois it will be 'heresy' at some point. Its just not desperation stakes yet. But at least you know how to spell it for when the time comes.

 

[BroDeal]

OK i jump on the disingenous merry go round.
Now you are being Joe,you know full well he dosent mean a +ve or the like.
But VAM,W/kg climb times etc(which btw are all very low this year)
None of the times/data suggests anything out of the ordinary,none nadda diddly squat.

VAM during racing is voodoo data. It depends on how the race developed. VAM itself changes with the grade.

 

[D-Queued]

... OTOH, today i searched for Froome. No results before bilharzia too. So it´s back and forth in my brain.

...

If Froome would let some of his buddies know who cured him, there could be a lot of cases of bilharzia in the peloton this coming off-season.

Dave.

 

[User Guide]

Yes, mainly due Tuckers numbers. OTOH, today i searched for Froome. No results before bilharzia too. So it´s back and forth in my brain.

On saturday i was pi$$ed off the Sky-Performance. Then i looked at the numbers, and circumstances, felt better. Now i am tending back to my saturday feeling, that Sky may has a better program than all other teams (thanks to inexhaustible money pool).

But one thing stands: The Tdf racing is better than the dull showing of the Giro...

I just wonder how many mins Froome would put into the field if protected and allowed to race (we shall not forget he lost 2 mins in the 1st week on a meaningless stage). Maybe 9 mins like Ullrich in 1997?

We might never find out, since if Froome becomes captain at another team, he may won´t find the all-around-program like Sky seems to have...

Sky have had the TDF squad all together for 12 months,set aside 9-10 riders with one plan.All the training camps ,every race, practiced the same tactic over and over with the same squad.
Is it not inconcievable that they might get a little good at it against a decimated field which has made them look way better than they really are.
Seems to me sky are like the giants in nfl,not really that good but just have fewer holes/weakspots than the rest.

 

[Maxiton]

Yes, mainly due Tuckers numbers. OTOH, today i searched for Froome. No results before bilharzia too. So it´s back and forth in my brain.

On saturday i was pi$$ed off the Sky-Performance. Then i looked at the numbers, and circumstances, felt better. Now i am tending back to my saturday feeling, that Sky may has a better program than all other teams (thanks to inexhaustible money pool).

But one thing stands: The Tdf racing is better than the dull showing of the Giro...

I just wonder how many mins Froome would put into the field if protected and allowed to race (we shall not forget he lost 2 mins in the 1st week on a meaningless stage). Maybe 9 mins like Ullrich in 1997?

We might never find out, since if Froome becomes captain at another team, he may won´t find the all-around-program like Sky seems to have...

I've lost a lot of respect for him and the website he's part of because of his claims. Everybody has a price, and I just wonder if his was met. Because he should know that it isn't all about numbers taken out of context; it's about numbers in the context of the peloton; in the context of what everyone else is doing.

And in any case as someone said above, sometimes you don't even need numbers, you just need eyes.

 

[180mmCrank]

you're being disingenuous, too.

if anyone had "evidence" that they were doping, it wouldn't be something being discussed in the Clinic - there'd be a WADA or AFLD investigation (or whomever).

but the riding of SKY certainly has the appearance of doping, when compared to similar rides of years past witnessed by fans watching now who also had no "evidence" then of actual doping.

OF course it's possible that SKY are doing this w/o doping. Which is why Wiggins' rant against justifiable cynicism only serves to engender more suspicion!

There's no "evidence" of doping, but there's certainly the appearance of doping when their current performances are compared to scenarios extracted from the EPO and blood go-go days. You're not going to get your concrete evidence of doping unless there's actually doping going on that's discovered by the anti-doping authorities, a la Tour 2006. But likewise there was no evidence apparent at the time for the 1999-2005 period and look what's happening now.

I wasn't calling anyone disengenuous - apologies if that was implied.

BUT Ok - if evidence implies "stand up in a court of law" - and this seems too high a standard of proof - give me another word - "hearsay?". A word that better describes a set of circumstances (I dont have a problem with resonably substantiated hearsay ) that points to doping. I know there are a lot of knowledgeable folk on this forum and I am genuinely curious - really.

Skepticism I get - outright condemnation I think is what I struggle with.

I know folk that worked with the UK track team and a number of the people now involved with Sky ... not all of them but some ... and I don't get quite the same skeptic vibe.

AND we may all be deluded

 

[D-Queued]

Sky have had the TDF squad all together for 12 months,set aside 9-10 riders with one plan.All the training camps ,every race, practiced the same tactic over and over with the same squad.
Is it not inconcievable that they might get a little good at it against a decimated field which has made them look way better than they really are.
Seems to me sky are like the giants in nfl,not really that good but just have fewer holes/weakspots than the rest.

If we are going to go with a New York analogy, how about Rosie Ruiz?

The way that Froome tore the legs off Wiggins, then got yelled at by his DS, almost looked like he had taken the subway to the end of the stage.

Definitely fewer weakspots than the rest.

Dave.

 

[UlleGigo]

Haha oh wow.. If you talk about 12th in the White jersey; 2007 the 10th rider in that competition was Grivko 2 hours and 41 minutes down. 10th in 2008 was Luis Leon Sanchez 1 hour 44 minutes down. 2009 Trofimov, 1 hour 5 minutes down.

I really hope you arent saying a 12th spot in young-riders classification means that you are a potential Tour winner, 2 a 3 years later ?

I believe that is exactly what masterracer is suggesting. If you need help to believe this nonsense you should start by forgetting everything you know about cycling then.. Well that's it really. Just know nothing, then you're good to go.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

If Froome would let some of his buddies know who cured him, there could be a lot of cases of bilharzia in the peloton this coming off-season.

Dave.

Now that was funny. Sarcasm at its finest...

 

[UlleGigo]

do you even know how to read the charts you posted?

snip by mod...

...Its a shame your arguments are so weak that they actually confirm the opposite.

 

[UlleGigo]

Rohan Dennis is going to Sky if rumours are true.

That sucks. He has been very impressive with the AIS team.

 

[180mmCrank]

snip by mod

Its a shame your arguments are so weak that they actually confirm the opposite.

Oy! @UGigo ... stick to talking about the topic (the post) not having a go at the poster.

Cheers

T