Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Sky have had the TDF squad all together for 12 months,set aside 9-10 riders with one plan.All the training camps ,every race, practiced the same tactic over and over with the same squad.
Is it not inconcievable that they might get a little good at it against a decimated field which has made them look way better than they really are.
Seems to me sky are like the giants in nfl,not really that good but just have fewer holes/weakspots than the rest.

But you still have the defending champ in the field, and Nibali who had a gradual process during his career. So i have to admit, Wiggins and Froome look suspicious. Both had the same career path like Pharmstrong: for years no results, and then all of a sudden high cadence and weight loss makes them indestroyable.

Well, the Giants won on pure luck. The dice rolled the right way for them during the playoffs (fumbles in SF, WRS dropping balls in GB, Welker didn´t catch the one ball he should have, etc., etc.). This team had so many holes, that they were capable of going trou the regular season with a negative point differential. Something that never ever happened in the history of US-Pro-Outdoor-Football to a champ. In short: The NYG are at no way compareable to team Sky.

I've lost a lot of respect for him and the website he's part of because of his claims. Everybody has a price, and I just wonder if his was met. Because he should know that it isn't all about numbers taken out of context; it's about numbers in the context of the peloton; in the context of what everyone else is doing.

And in any case as someone said above, sometimes you don't even need numbers, you just need eyes.

But you must admit that Tucker brings reasonable points with his numbers. Don´t you?

 

[131313]

I've never head that before. Never. Rogers and Evans have two and a half years age difference between them. Heard their figures before.

Heck I've never even heard Evans has been to Tasmania. I know the name of the big hill in Tasmania, but it's not on the tip of my tongue at this moment. It's not easy. 10km @ nearly 10% gradient if I remember.

My point was Evans is the benchmark for the Aussie guys. Heard the comparisons with Rogers many times. Porte? Never heard a thing. You must have missed my point a few pages back. I literally had heard nothing about him till he popped up at Saxo.

It's a lot easier to find stuff on the AIS guys. The track program guys. VO2max figures, FTP numbers when they are 20-22. From what I remember, Porte wasn't even riding at 20.

I remember reading this a while ago: http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/opening-doors-comes-naturally-for-porte

Porte certainly didn't come from "nowhere", and I find his performance so far to be more believable than any of the other guys, but who really knows what the truth is?

Wait 'til next year, after Sky signs JTL, and everyone wants to know "who is this guy winning the Giro? We've never even hear of him!?".

 

[UlleGigo]

Oy! @UGigo ... stick to talking about the topic (the post) not having a go at the poster.

Cheers

T

I think if someone attempts to make arguments from authority then proceeds to make a mockery of that authority through their obvious shortcomings they should be called out for it.

 

[Cavalier]

The comparison of Evans and Porte up Mt Wellington is a bit disingenuous considering Evans had, up until that point, been almost exclusively a mountain bike racer and didn't convert to road racing full time until some 4 years later.

 

[180mmCrank]

I think if someone attempts to make arguments from authority then proceeds to make a mockery of that authority through their obvious shortcomings they should be called out for it.

I know you think that. But you can't just have a go at the person you have to make an argument.

Send me a PM if you want to continue the conversation

Thanks

Terry
Admin

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

But you still have the defending champ in the field, and Nibali who had a gradual process during his career. So i have to admit, Wiggins and Froome look suspicious. Both had the same career path like Pharmstrong: for years no results, and then all of a sudden high cadence and weight loss makes them indestroyable.

Well, the Giants won on pure luck. The dice rolled the right way for them during the playoffs (fumbles in SF, WRS dropping balls in GB, Welker didn´t catch the one ball he should have, etc., etc.). This team had so many holes, that they were capable of going trou the regular season with a negative point differential. Something that never ever happened in the history of US-Pro-Outdoor-Football to a champ. In short: The NYG are at no way compareable to team Sky.

Hey, NFL makes the Sky thread . But I'd rather be lucky and win (NYG) than good and lose (NE).

In attempt to keep this out of the clinic, I'll just say Froome looks really strong for Wiggins and TJVG looks strong for Evans. Froome (a 27 YO) just may take the mantle from Wiggins (who is 32) by next year, maybe? If not next year, the year after.

 

[180mmCrank]

Hey, NFL makes the Sky thread . But I'd rather be lucky and win (NYG) than good and lose (NE).

In attempt to keep this out of the clinic, I'll just say Froome looks really strong for Wiggins and TJVG looks strong for Evans. Froome (a 27 YO) just may take the mantle from Wiggins (who is 32) by next year, maybe? If not next year, the year after.

It's already in the Clinic

T

 

[Cavalier]

Also, I saw a lot of talk on here recently about Cadel's VO2 numbers, but they were never given. Here they are:

Cadel Evans at 18-24yrs; VO2 87ml.kg.min (7.3 W.kg). 30min TT test av PO ~400W (6.3W.kg)

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

It's already in the Clinic

T

dam. I payed no attention. I thought this was pro road racing with the 'Sky' title... dadblasttheflatterap

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

TJVG looks strong for Evans. Froome (a 27 YO) just may take the mantle from Wiggins (who is 32) by next year, maybe? If not next year, the year after.

Pharmstrong was 28 when having his coming out (around the same as Froome, Wiggins). TJVG showed talent early, as Pinot, as Ullrich (even tough in the darkest days), as Lemond, as Fignon, as Hinault and so on.

This riders coming on strong on "old" ages just never happened before Indurain hit the secene. It´s just funny at this same time Epo hit the peloton.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

This riders coming on strong on "old" ages just never happened before Indurain hit the secene. It´s just funny at this same time Epo hit the peloton.

The thought has crossed my mind in regard to the UK Posties.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

The thought has crossed my mind in regard to the UK Posties.

Yeah, those days were even darker than the pre Festina days. It all started in Sestriere when an obscure american was tested positiv but went uncontested.

 

[Krebs cycle]

That's humour. But yes, Rogers is a well known liar and LA nut hugger. That boy contradicts himself as often as Wiggins does. Fits well with the Sky model. He's a trusted figure. Omerta supporter 101 class. Top of class, Mick Rogers.

Porte, well he only road for Bjarne Riis. I never heard of him before that. Rogers has been well known for donkeys ages. And Richie blabbed on about "learning how to ride a GT from Alberto." Want to hear what another Aussie said about him? Click the link. Not just any Aussie, arguably the foremost anti doping expert in the world. Join the dots, Richie ain't trust worthy. Like most Tasmanians. But you'd know that being an Aussie, wouldn't you? Oh and the snippet about Murdoch...duh, most people know that. Not helping your point. Proving mine. Thanks for making my case for me.

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2012/behind-scenes-contador-cas-hearing-michael-ashenden

I don't know anything about Richie Porte, but to imply that he is doping because he comes from Tasmania and you obviously hate greenies, is stark raving lunacy (but I admit it was kinda funny too ). I know people that have worked closely with Rogers and they say he is a good bloke. Either of them could be decent or either of them could be tools, but it means nothing though really when it comes to determining whether or not someone is doping.

Similarly, there are lot of people in this forum that make wild accusations of doping as if they were the team doctor holding the needle themselves, but in actual fact, they know sweet FA. Yes, Team Sky are suspicious, but claiming 100% certainty of systematic team doping using performance only as your indicator is pie in the sky (no pun intended) nonsense. It's like some of you guys think we don't even need the biopassport, just scrap it completely and employ members of the clinic who in their infinite airchair expert opinions can determine who is doping simply by looking at facial expressions during mtn climbs!!

And regarding Michael Ashenden, he may wonder publicly whether or not some performances are physiologically possible, but he is a consumate scientist and he would never make such wild accusations of doping unless he had real proof, ie: something more credible than performance alone, such as biopassport data. If you bothered to read the link you posted you'll notice that he specifically refers to Contador's blood values and says nothing about super VAM numbers or space alien w/kg.

 

[Cavalier]

I don't think anyone's claimed 100% certainty krebs - I think most people who are at least credibly objective are saying the performances are highly suspicious. That alone has been the point of origin for the majority of people who have ever been suspected I'd suggest.

 

[Krebs cycle]

I don't think anyone's claimed 100% certainty krebs - I think most people who are at least credibly objective are saying the performances are highly suspicious. That alone has been the point of origin for the majority of people who have ever been suspected I'd suggest.

I dunno, Galic Ho is going pretty ape**** about the whole thing. Seems pretty damn convinced to me!

 

[MartinGT]

Brenie Eisel said on Twitter this morning he was having dope control this morning, lets hope its the lot of them!

 

[wattage]

I don't think Eisel has got the full "Sky treatment"

 

[Cavalier]

I dunno, Galic Ho is going pretty ape**** about the whole thing. Seems pretty damn convinced to me!

I think we can write off anyone getting banned as being in the 'credibly objective' category. I think to be objective we need to be able to discuss it rationally without being emotive. I think most are doing that.

 

[the asian]

Exactly. The salary is an interesting notion. Plenty of ideas support this. I studied 'contract theory' and what it stipulates certainly applies to what you said. It's the bonus aspects that draw you to a team. Porte is no fool. He chose wisely. Rogers I am more convinced was part of a larger group of former HTC riders poached. In essence he got lucky.

Rogers has had some good performances. Won a very weak Tour of California. Had the Shack not had Floyd spill all the beans the week before hand, Levi and Lance would have spanked him. Then there was his Romandie leaders jersey. He was disgracefully abandoned by all but one HTC rider. Lost the race because of it. Sky won't do that. It's not about Cav exclusively. Their program can guarantee success to many riders.

If they pull the Tour win off unscathed with no sanctions, everything is up for grabs. Literally every race, the longer variety, they can win. Postal had Azevedo, Heras, Bottle and Landis. All talented enough to win a GT on the right program or at least podium. Froome clearly has the goods. Porte? He'll be given the Giro. Almost guaranteed. On the stuff Froome and Wiggins are on, he'd have obliterated Purito, Hesjedal and de Gendt in May. Absolutely destroyed them. Worse, he wouldn't have had to do it by much for people to think it was within the realm of being clean.

Unless something happens to the entire peloton, or Contador and Schleck take it back up a notch or two, Sky will run away with every GT next season. Every single one. Oh and most of the week long stage races.

Long term? Uran is naturally really good. But that's not the aim. Thomas. Geraint Thomas. He is their man. Track to road demon program works. Aussies will not take this lying down. Greenedge will fight back. Anyone want to take a punt on the odds of Rohan Dennis and Jack Bobridge under going their own GC transformations. Do note, the Giros he has raced, Bobridge was second last on GC both years I checked. Plus unlike Wiggins, they are world junior road medallists and champions. Someone better stop this muck before the doping race really goes nuclear. Australia won't take Great Britain making a mockery of other nations. They'll fight back. Porte to mentor these young Aussie guys in a few years if Sky doesn't get busted. Greenedge only need to borrow some doctors and it's a done deal.

Fully agree. This is what will happen

What we are seeing is a seismic shift in the balance of power in the cycling world. The Brits will go on to dominate the road, the same way they have dominated the Track in the past few years. There program is headed by the same man, and they are using the same innovative training methods & technology.
Contador & Schleck will have no chance against this highly professional, innovative team by riding in teams which have outdated training methods.
Cycling in the next decade will be dominated by riders from the Anglo Saxon countries.
Bradley Wiggins has shown us that by professionalism, dedication & sacrifice, a World Class Track Pursuit rider can become a top notch GC rider.
In the future, the grand tours, and especially the Tour will be won by, not by the likes of Pinot, Rolland, Landa or Quintana, but by the likes of Froome, Kenaugh, Bobridge, Durbridge, Hepburn, Van Garderen & Talansky.

 

[Normandy]

Fully agree. This is what will happen

What we are seeing is a seismic shift in the balance of power in the cycling world. The Brits will go on to dominate the road, the same way they have dominated the Track in the past few years. There program is headed by the same man, and they are using the same innovative training methods & technology.
Contador & Schleck will have no chance against this highly professional, innovative team by riding in teams which have outdated training methods.
Cycling in the next decade will be dominated by riders from the Anglo Saxon countries.
Bradley Wiggins has shown us that by professionalism, dedication & sacrifice, a World Class Track Pursuit rider can become a top notch GC rider.
In the future, the grand tours, and especially the Tour will be won by, not by the likes of Pinot, Rolland, Landa or Quintana, but by the likes of Froome, Kenaugh, Bobridge, Durbridge, Hepburn, Van Garderen & Talansky.

What Grand Tours?

If this is the future of cycling, who will want to watch it? No one outside a limited number of cycling fans in UK, Australia and may be US.

More importantly who will want to sponsor it? What value would winning these Tours and races in this manner? In fact, what value does the yellow jersey still have this year.

 

[samerics]

Pharmstrong was 28 when having his coming out (around the same as Froome, Wiggins). TJVG showed talent early, as Pinot, as Ullrich (even tough in the darkest days), as Lemond, as Fignon, as Hinault and so on.

This riders coming on strong on "old" ages just never happened before Indurain hit the secene. It´s just funny at this same time Epo hit the peloton.

In the interest of balance, both Wiggins and Evans were dominant in other disciplines in their younger years, so neither of them came on strong at a later age, just changed emphasis, still had the engines. Just saying!

 

[the asian]

What Grand Tours?

If this is the future of cycling, who will want to watch it? No one outside a limited number of cycling fans in UK, Australia and may be US.

More importantly who will want to sponsor it? What value would winning these Tours and races in this manner? In fact, what value does the yellow jersey still have this year.

This is what will happen if this SKY train isn't stopped now. SKY will continue it's doping program and the Aussies and the Americans will soon join in. They will create super teams with riders doped to the gills. and select good TT ers as their leaders. and will start dominating the Grand Tours. We already so it during US Postal era. It's going to happen again unless SKY get caught.

UCI won't care about fans. The teams will donate some money to UCI approved charity, and that will be it.

 

[Mellow Velo]

What Grand Tours?

If this is the future of cycling, who will want to watch it? No one outside a limited number of cycling fans in UK, Australia and may be US.

More importantly who will want to sponsor it? What value would winning these Tours and races in this manner? In fact, what value does the yellow jersey still have this year.

You must be talking about the ATOC and TDU. Those Grand Tours.

If 7 straight years of Lance strangling the Tour led to increased interest and revenue.
Indurain was no Pantani in motion, either.

I doubt the likes of those guys winning will be much of a commercial set back.
Sad maybe, but true.

This is what will happen if this SKY train isn't stopped now. SKY will continue it's doping program and the Aussies and the Americans will soon join in. They will create super teams with riders doped to the gills. and select good TT ers as their leaders. and will start dominating the Grand Tours. We already so it during US Postal era. It's going to happen again unless SKY get caught.
UCI won't care about fans. The teams will donate some money to UCI approved charity, and that will be it.

LOL, just LOL.

 

[coinneach]

addicted to doping?

It strikes me as this forum preaches to the converted and the volume of innuendo confirms suspicions BUT that doesn't make it right.

There are so many falsehoods in the 128 pages that it would take hours and hours to correct them all.

I would just say, someone has to win the tour, and by this stage, the winner often comes from the team that is strongest.

Sky do ride like US Postal, but that's because US Postal were the strongest team (for whatever reasons) AND because it's the best way to win the tour if your leader is the best Time Trialist.

There is nothing in their style or development that proves doping or even suggests it (apart from the rapid improvement of Froome, which is explained by his recovery from a parasitic illness). Cavendish has not improved coming over to them.

I know we have all been fooled before but what is the point of following a sport if all you are going to do is shout "booo"? I hate the company SKY, and how money can be used to buy success but Wiggins and the cycling team has given me a real thrill this year. I am sorry for those fans "addicted to doping" so much they can't enjoy it.

 

[BroDeal]

Sky do ride like US Postal, but that's because US Postal were the strongest team (for whatever reasons) AND because it's the best way to win the tour if your leader is the best Time Trialist.

How many long time trials has that best time trialist won?