Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Telmisartan new]

I didn't justify smoking. I said the attack on his foundation's goal because the presumed reason for the foundation was to create a Livestrong like charade was another sorry attempt to rationalize the hatred some people have for him. And yes, much of what goes on in the Clinic is an exercise in post-hoc rationalization for emotional reactions to riders. That is clear from the unevenness of 'clinic justice,' wherein some riders like Wiggins get disproportionate vitriol aimed at them despite the lack of any specific evidence against them. Meanwhile, the likes of George Hincapie get to ride off in the sunset, basking in the glory of uncritical feel-good stories about him despite the fact that he was Armstrong's lapdog, his mule, his enabler, and his victory at pla d'adet should go down as one of the darkest days of a dirty generation. But George is a 'nice guy' so gets a pass?

Nobody is getting a pass.I'd say two of the most popular riders currently in the gruppeto are Gilbert and Valverde (if TDF fan mail is anything to go by) and both have been taken to task in here.There are no free passes in the clinic,that's the whole point,the majority in here love this sport and abhor cheating,its a simple question of right and wrong.

 

[mastersracer]

Who said anything about George Hincapie?

The knife cuts deep.

You've been found out and your obvious bias is telling.

"Smoking safer than smog" - you heard it first! (well only when Brad smokes)

I'm sure you've got some science to back up the claim?

I haven't seen you mention a single negative comment about Hincapie despite the fact that he is ground zero of the dirtiest and darkest doping conspiracy in the history of sport. Where's your outrage, your dedication to blind and equal justice?

Re Wiggins - get serious. There is pictorial evidence of him smoking a single cigarette or whatever it was. It is beyond petty to get hung up on that.

 

[function]

he was born in Ghent Belgium, Australian father ( Gary..former rider in that notoriously clean activity of six day racing ).

I agree they should hand out lifetime bans for the sons/daughters of doping cyclists

 

[thehog]

I haven't seen you mention a single negative comment about Hincapie despite the fact that he is ground zero of the dirtiest and darkest doping conspiracy in the history of sport. Where's your outrage, your dedication to blind and equal justice?

Re Wiggins - get serious. There is pictorial evidence of him smoking a single cigarette or whatever it was. It is beyond petty to get hung up on that.

Nice deflect to Hincapie

"Mum, Hincapie was doing it too! No one blames him. He never gets in trouble, mum!"

You haven't been round here long. I'm forever taking the p1ss out of doepy George and his vision for clean cycling that struck him in the last two years of his career.

Back to Wiggo I'm not the one telling the story. You are. Apparently according to your esteemed knowledge smoking is the same as breathing in smog. So kids you might as well just smoke.

Single cigarette?!!!

You are good.

 

[mastersracer]

Nice deflect to Hincapie

"Mum, Hincapie was doing it too! No one blames him. He never gets in trouble, mum!"

You haven't been round here long. I'm forever taking the p1ss out of doepy George and his vision for clean cycling that struck him in the last two years of his career.

Back to Wiggo I'm not the one telling the story. You are. Apparently according to your esteemed knowledge smoking is the same as breathing in smog. So kids you might as well just smoke.

Single cigarette?!!!

You are good.

First off, you jumped on the bandwagon that Wiggins was smoking marijuana. I believe you wore your psychoanalytic hat to suggest he was self-loathing and needed to escape his life of doping and lies. Ignoring for the moment that every culture in human history has engaged in some form of recreational mind-altering drug use that makes your claim patently false, you appear now to be changing your tune to insinuate Wiggins is a chain-smoking tobacco addict, who, I guess, must be using particularly powerful PEDs to overcome the serious lung damage his secret habit has caused. Or, perhaps his lung atrophy is in fact the secret of his weight loss (the same way LA used cancer to alter his morphology, no doubt). And thus he is secretly campaigning to hook the nation's youth on the dirty drug. What a tangled web you weave. Bravo.

 

[Darryl Webster]

I agree they should hand out lifetime bans for the sons/daughters of doping cyclists

Lol, my response was to the " kid from Kilburn" comment and the clear " he's a Brit " kinda angle of Master . Bottom line is his place of birth, were he lives now has ****** all to do with anything regards is he doped or not and mention of his old man was a cheep shot from me ...not much different to the one I might add could be applied to Axel Merckx or Nic Roche tbh.

Incidently , unlike some here I don't support life time bans in general..though I think there's a case were clear and systematic ped use is proven in particular for the more adventagous peds such as EPO.
There are many things on the banned list I think are ridiculous , weed being one of em.
Personaly I couldn't care less how much or little any cyclist might smoke but I do think the hypocrisy from pro,s about healthy lifestyles is a load of tosh.
There is ****** all healthy about elite cycling or indeed most any elite sport.

 

[thehog]

First off, you jumped on the bandwagon that Wiggins was smoking marijuana. I believe you wore your psychoanalytic hat to suggest he was self-loathing and needed to escape his life of doping and lies. Ignoring for the moment that every culture in human history has engaged in some form of recreational mind-altering drug use that makes your claim patently false, you appear now to be changing your tune to insinuate Wiggins is a chain-smoking tobacco addict, who, I guess, must be using particularly powerful PEDs to overcome the serious lung damage his secret habit has caused. Or, perhaps his lung atrophy is in fact the secret of his weight loss (the same way LA used cancer to alter his morphology, no doubt). And thus he is secretly campaigning to hook the nation's youth on the dirty drug. What a tangled web you weave. Bravo.

Are you arguing with me or yourself?

You're now at a point where you inventing the story that I'm supposedly telling. That's impressive. Probably also the first sign of going mad. I assume you have a direct quote where I insinuated that Wiggins was "chain-smoking tobacco" addict? or you just making this up?

I have your quote though. Its good!

One last time for the ride: "Whole lot of hate to run the guy down for one celebratory smoke of some sort after winning the Tour and a gold medal. Racing around London would have been worse for his lungs..."

- There you have it folks. "...one celebratory smoke.... racing around London would have been far worse for his lungs"

Wonderful proclamation.

Time to deflect with a George Hincapie?

 

[mastersracer]

Are you arguing with me or yourself?

You're now at a point where you inventing the story that I'm supposedly telling. That's impressive. Probably also the first sign of going mad. I assume you have a direct quote where I insinuated that Wiggins was "chain-smoking tobacco" addict? or you just making this up?

I have your quote though. Its good!

One last time for the ride: "Whole lot of hate to run the guy down for one celebratory smoke of some sort after winning the Tour and a gold medal. Racing around London would have been worse for his lungs..."

- There you have it folks. "...one celebratory smoke.... racing around London would have been far worse for his lungs"

Wonderful proclamation.

Time to deflect with a George Hincapie?

We have evidence of Wiggins smoking a single time - if you believe it is more or beyond occasional recreation please proivde that evidence. In the meantime, here is some reading for you on the health effects of air pollution. If you do not think polluted air is a major health concern, then you are frankly daft. Wiggins very occasional smoking is minor compared to breathing polluted air. When you are done with these, let me know. There are a few thousand more peer-reviewed papers to enlighten you:

Lim, Wei-Yen, and AdelineSeow. "Biomass fuels and lung cancer." Respirology 17.1 (2012):20-31.

Ristovski, Zoran D, et al. "Respiratory health effects of diesel particulate matter." Respirology 17.2 (2012):201-212.

Kodgule, Rahul, and SundeepSalvi. "Exposure to biomass smoke as a cause for airway disease in women and children." Current opinion in allergy and clinical immunology 12.1 (2012):82-90.

Bauer, Rebecca N, DavidDiaz Sanchez, and IlonaJaspers. "Effects of air pollutants on innate immunity: the role of Toll-like receptors and nucleotide-binding oligomerization domain-like receptors." Journal of allergy and clinical immunology 129.1 (2012):14-24.

Holloway, John W, et al. "Genomics and the respiratory effects of air pollution exposure." Respirology 17.4 (2012):590-600.

Schmidt, Shelley L, and Kevin RFlaherty. "Clinical year in review I: interstitial lung disease, occupational and environmental lung disease, education of residents and fellows, and pediatrics." Proceedings of the American Thoracic Society 8.5 (2011):389-397.

Dagouassat, M, SLanone, and JBoczkowski. "Interaction of matrix metalloproteinases with pulmonary pollutants." The European respiratory journal 39.4 (2012):1021-1032.

 

[thehog]

We have evidence of Wiggins smoking a single time - if you believe it is more or beyond occasional recreation please proivde that evidence. In the meantime, here is some reading for you on the health effects of air pollution. If you do not think polluted air is a major health concern, then you are frankly daft. Wiggins very occasional smoking is minor compared to breathing polluted air. When you are done with these, let me know. There are a few thousand more peer-reviewed papers to enlighten you:

Lim, Wei-Yen, and AdelineSeow. "Biomass fuels and lung cancer." Respirology 17.1 (2012):20-31.

Ristovski, Zoran D, et al. "Respiratory health effects of diesel particulate matter." Respirology 17.2 (2012):201-212.

Kodgule, Rahul, and SundeepSalvi. "Exposure to biomass smoke as a cause for airway disease in women and children." Current opinion in allergy and clinical immunology 12.1 (2012):82-90.

Bauer, Rebecca N, DavidDiaz Sanchez, and IlonaJaspers. "Effects of air pollutants on innate immunity: the role of Toll-like receptors and nucleotide-binding oligomerization domain-like receptors." Journal of allergy and clinical immunology 129.1 (2012):14-24.

Holloway, John W, et al. "Genomics and the respiratory effects of air pollution exposure." Respirology 17.4 (2012):590-600.

Schmidt, Shelley L, and Kevin RFlaherty. "Clinical year in review I: interstitial lung disease, occupational and environmental lung disease, education of residents and fellows, and pediatrics." Proceedings of the American Thoracic Society 8.5 (2011):389-397.

Dagouassat, M, SLanone, and JBoczkowski. "Interaction of matrix metalloproteinases with pulmonary pollutants." The European respiratory journal 39.4 (2012):1021-1032.

You went to all that effort for moi?

You're a very strange person.

I'll leave you with this Mr. Smartypants-know-it-Internet-research-paper-blogger:

Aug. 23, 2004 -- Three cigarettes can cause more air pollution than a diesel car's exhaust, according to an Italian study.

The study compared levels of air pollution particles produced by cigarettes with those coming from a late-model "eco-diesel" engine. The research team was led by Giovanni Invernizzi of the Tobacco Control Unit of Italy's National Cancer Institute.

http://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20040823/smoking-worse-than-exhaust-for-air-pollution

Why do I continually make you look foolish?

 

[sittingbison]

We have evidence of Wiggins smoking a single time...

but did he inhale?

 

[Maxiton]

but did he inhale?

There's no proof he inhaled. Froome may have inhaled, but no one can prove Bradley did.

 

[thehog]

There's no proof he inhaled. Froome may have inhaled, but no one can prove Bradley did.

"Wiggins very occasional smoking is minor compared to breathing polluted air"

- Everyone should stop cycling, stay indoors and start smoking. Froome is bad. I've seen him breathing air all the time. He needs to be target tested for breathing in air.

 

[Sylvester]

Joker smokers, all of them!

 

[mastersracer]

You went to all that effort for moi?

You're a very strange person.

I'll leave you with this Mr. Smartypants-know-it-Internet-research-paper-blogger:

Aug. 23, 2004 -- Three cigarettes can cause more air pollution than a diesel car's exhaust, according to an Italian study.

The study compared levels of air pollution particles produced by cigarettes with those coming from a late-model "eco-diesel" engine. The research team was led by Giovanni Invernizzi of the Tobacco Control Unit of Italy's National Cancer Institute.

http://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20040823/smoking-worse-than-exhaust-for-air-pollution

Why do I continually make you look foolish?

let me know when you want to have a serious discussion.

 

[ianfra]

One more reason that guesstimates of power based on VAM are too imprecise to be of any real use, at least in the present context.

Wow! Much better to get out on the bike and ride, ride, ride. Doesn't matter about all this rubbish. Wonderful ride yesterday up in the hills around Chiang Mai (mae on) and today another great ride towards Doi Inthanon. Loads of climbing and 170 miles across two days.

As for the rest of the nonsense in the Clinic .......come on. Chill out!!!!! Especially Gallic person.

 

[Benotti69]

Wow! Much better to get out on the bike and ride, ride, ride. Doesn't matter about all this rubbish. Wonderful ride yesterday up in the hills around Chiang Mai (mae on) and today another great ride towards Doi Inthanon. Loads of climbing and 170 miles across two days.

As for the rest of the nonsense in the Clinic .......come on. Chill out!!!!! Especially Gallic person.

Still waiting to hear about all the anit-doping stuff you wrote as a cycling journalists in your past life.

Are we going to see any?

It is all relevant to todays peloton and the current no.1 team in cycling.

 

[hiero2]

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/11395/Doping-AICAR-Telmisartan-and-the-need-for-vigilance.aspx

Well. This could be posted elsewhere. Idk. But, this could be how Bradley (and team) is saying, with honesty, he isn't "doping", when he IS pushing the envelope.

 

[the big ring]

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/11395/Doping-AICAR-Telmisartan-and-the-need-for-vigilance.aspx

Well. This could be posted elsewhere. Idk. But, this could be how Bradley (and team) is saying, with honesty, he isn't "doping", when he IS pushing the envelope.

Yes, had hinted at this previously.

Brailsford says something about "leaving no stone unturned" - which implies any medical, non-WADA banned medications could also be in play. All legit and above board and as we have already seen (dropping the bike in the team sprint): playing by the letter of the rules, but perhaps not the spirit.

 

[Galic Ho]

Wow! Much better to get out on the bike and ride, ride, ride. Doesn't matter about all this rubbish. Wonderful ride yesterday up in the hills around Chiang Mai (mae on) and today another great ride towards Doi Inthanon. Loads of climbing and 170 miles across two days.

As for the rest of the nonsense in the Clinic .......come on. Chill out!!!!! Especially Gallic person.

I am chilled dude. Very chilled. But thanks for your concern.

You see things happen in seasons. Todays poster boy and hyped up sporting team, in this sport, is tomorrows whipping horse for blatant doping. Sky's time will come. Just talking in between.

I was also testing the thread. I had a theory the power data regulars don't go anywhere else. I also suspected they had friends PM'ing them. Needed to be sure. Pretty easy to detect...drop an off-hand slur they will naturally reply to. Looks like some people read all the threads.

When I wasn't chilled?...last week when my brother left a baiting comment on Facebook about Armstrong. One neanderthal in his grade, who assumed he was bright, jumped on an started sprouting garbage that makes guys who clearly miss the mark all the time in Clinic, look like geniuses. I ripped him a new one, with the usual info about LA and his doping. Lots of people on my brothers friends list on FB were in denial. All young 21 and under. My age group, 29, not a damn peep. They all know he doped. Psychology and behavioral characteristics of different age brackets. Younger people still don't question and buy most things hook, line and sinker they are force fed by conflicted and biased media groups and their assets.

BTW most people I talk to know LA doped. I convinced a great deal of them quite easily...with all the usual articles, info brought up in the Clinic. More interestingly is those I haven't talked to about Sky once...well they were all questioning Sky, Wiggins, Froome and co during the Tour. They all thought they were dirty. Cadel? That's a different story, but these teams aren't fooling everyone...just selective groups within society, aka, the fanboys and their own countrymen who are just patriotic, maybe to a degree they shouldn't be.

That was the last time I wasn't calm. It was a one off. I don't tolerate idiocy in person. Nor do I suffer ignorance and disinformation. I'll call anyone out on it. I don't care about people's feelings if they are dead set wrong. Correction is needed...for everyone when they are wrong. That guy my brother knows on FB, what was his defense? The usual garbage about opinions not being relevant and the blah, blah blah crap sprouted on the Clinic. Didn't have a single response that touched on anything I presented about cycling, doping and especially Ashenden's work.

There was one more group mentioning doping I've seen lately. RPM class at the gym. I thought the instructor would know. She was so clueless it wasn't funny. But they were all sitting on the fence. I allowed them to go about their business and ignorant blissful thinking. Does it matter? There is an Armstrong poster on the door of my gyms RPM class with a motivational motif. Maybe they can swap it with a Sky one? Something with Bradley Wiggins, super lightweight rider and bone idleness all thrown in...what do you all think? Be one heck of a motivating poster. Be like Brad. Lose weight. Be like Brad. Suffer, suffer, suffer. Be like Brad, ignore the haters, because that is all they are, bone idle, useless, lazy and fat. Be like Brad....has quite a ring to it doesn't it. Beats that Armstrong drivel about not quitting. We all saw him quit last week.

 

[Galic Ho]

Sure, Wiggins is the very picture of licentious hedonism, a British Bacchus. The depth of irrational hatred for him is truly impressive here - even a foundation is opportunity for unleashing more vitriol. If Wiggins saved a baby from a house fire, there would be a thread here accusing him of starting the fire...

Be realistic dude. Bradley doesn't have the upper body mass to carry anything of weight. How heavy is this baby?

I do like the parallels you draw upon. Those not saying what you want to hear, in a thread naturally about Sky doping, are hateful and yourself? Well you create a nice construct within which Bradley Wiggins is a baby rescuing Hero. Give me a break dude.

Irrational hatred? Confused here man. Wiggins and Sky aren't deserving of our hatred. Just our dislike at their conduct and blatant lying. That's not hating. Hating would be me, if I ever meet them, rearranging their faces. Which, given their dramatic weight losses team wide...would be easy. There's the clarity you are missing. Sky aren't hated...they're not good enough for that.

 

[cineteq]

Hating would be me, if I ever meet them, rearranging their faces.

Goodfellas, part deux?

 

[Galic Ho]

Goodfellas, part deux?

Something like that.

I'd actually be quiet and gauge any pro rider I'd meet in person. Especially if I am in close proximity to them for a while. Try and figure out how they naturally are and see how much info they'd hand over for free. Basically I'd play them.

Nobody here on this forum should fear any rider physically. Maybe Cancellara or Hushovd...that is it. The rest are no threat to anyone. Especially Cadel Evans. They bark but do not bite in that realm. Their training limits their physical balance. Maybe if they kicked you 'King Leonidas' style, like in the movie 300, you'd be in trouble. That's about it. Or they could throw a bike at you.

As for cyclists fearing forumists here in the Clinic? Nope. Verbally confrontational in the Clinic about doping...yes, that happens. But physically threatening? Not gonna happen as I see it. I don't speak for anyone other than myself but I've noticed most anti-doping posters don't actually hate the dopers. We may not like their behavior, or their annoying personality traits...but to say we hate the riders is stretching it too far. I actually like the hilarity of the blatant dopers. And yes, disliking them gives me something to cheer against. Which speaking of, I will get to see tonight as SBS have the Vuelta on. Good viewing seeing three obvious Spanish dopers, who are still classy bike riders, tag teaming Sky and Froome....that's priceless.

Hating on team Sky. That's a loose vocabulary and interpretation at use...most likely from a fanboys perspective. No real harm done.

 

[Benotti69]

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/11395/Doping-AICAR-Telmisartan-and-the-need-for-vigilance.aspx

Well. This could be posted elsewhere. Idk. But, this could be how Bradley (and team) is saying, with honesty, he isn't "doping", when he IS pushing the envelope.

I think they should be testing at least all the GT podiums and monument podiums for AICAR from the last 2/3 years.

 

[Parrot23]

Something like that.

I'd actually be quiet and gauge any pro rider I'd meet in person. Especially if I am in close proximity to them for a while. Try and figure out how they naturally are and see how much info they'd hand over for free. Basically I'd play them.

Nobody here on this forum should fear any rider physically. Maybe Cancellara or Hushovd...that is it. The rest are no threat to anyone. Especially Cadel Evans. They bark but do not bite in that realm. Their training limits their physical balance. Maybe if they kicked you 'King Leonidas' style, like in the movie 300, you'd be in trouble. That's about it. Or they could throw a bike at you.

As for cyclists fearing forumists here in the Clinic? Nope. Verbally confrontational in the Clinic about doping...yes, that happens. But physically threatening? Not gonna happen as I see it. I don't speak for anyone other than myself but I've noticed most anti-doping posters don't actually hate the dopers. We may not like their behavior, or their annoying personality traits...but to say we hate the riders is stretching it too far. I actually like the hilarity of the blatant dopers. And yes, disliking them gives me something to cheer against. Which speaking of, I will get to see tonight as SBS have the Vuelta on. Good viewing seeing three obvious Spanish dopers, who are still classy bike riders, tag teaming Sky and Froome....that's priceless.

Hating on team Sky. That's a loose vocabulary and interpretation at use...most likely from a fanboys perspective. No real harm done.

Absolutely! Refreshments time - another pint of nails in sulphuric acid, please!

Let me introduce you to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disorders

 

["Jeff"]

Wiggins compared his team to Banesto and USPS in the post race interview, does no one else think that that is a bit odd?

I read this more often and dont understand this at all, unless people have not watched cycling between 1989 and 1996.

Miguel Indurain had some great helpers in the mountain stages over the years. Aside from Jean-Francois Bernard, Pedro Delgado and Gerard Rue sometimes, you didnt see him being surrounded by 3-4 helpers in a group of 10-12 riders.

Team time trials were often not Banesto's greatest strength either, like US Postal/Telekom/Sky.