Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[JimmyFingers]

That you are still here offering nothing proves my point.

Right back atcha

 

[Froomador]

Like self-imposed rules?

Broken by the hiring of Leindeers.

I think the ruling has to be by the UCI and team licenses only issued based on such. Saying that, if that rule was implemented today around 70-80% of the DS's would be gone!

I believe Leindeers is no longer attached to Sky.

As for Sutton, anyone who was racing at that level around the same time knows of his approach back then and I think Darryl covers that in his reply. I am not for one minute suggesting however that he applies the same approach at Sky today.

Regardless of past sins, both Yates and Sutton are highly experienced professionals and considered first class motivators by the riders they manage and likely employed on that basis.

As for Sky's race tactics, well that's a different debate all together

 

[the big ring]

I think the ruling has to be by the UCI and team licenses only issued based on such. Saying that, if that rule was implemented today around 70-80% of the DS's would be gone!

I believe Leindeers is no longer attached to Sky.

Whilst idealistically I agree - having the sport clean from top to bottom is the best - the UCI are at the top and they are rotten. It's OT to continue, but they are not the answer for a clean sport.

Any link to Leindeers' current status with Sky and who he was replaced with would be much appreciated.

 

[Franklin]

Any link to Leindeers' current status with Sky and who he was replaced with would be much appreciated.

LMAO, I'm 100% sure DB kicked him out asap when we started to ask the right questions.

Don't expect they will give a good answer why they hired Geert "Chamoiscream" Leinders.

 

[Franklin]

Yates rode for Motorola before later becoming a DS at Discovery. He would therefore have come into contact with motoman on numerous occasions. Whilst Yates tested positive as a rider and was no doubt aware of the 'team program' whilst at Discovery, I seriously doubt the same arrangement is in place at Sky so I think it is perhaps a little unfair to label the team guilty by association.

Ah sure man.

I mean we have this huge anti-doping mantra. And we employ a dodgy doctor who is found guilty by the courts for fraudulent behavior considering doping practices. The DS is buddies with Lance's courier.

Of course, having dodgy doctors and couriers could be seen as building blocks for a pretty nice program, but it's really unfair to point the spotlight there.

I mean, these things so far always have panned out to be doping, but this is SKY, so it simply is beyond reproach.

How dare we ****ers ask these questions! I mean, there are only just a few really bood red flags, so why don't we do the right thing and TRUST them?

 

[the big ring]

How dare we ****ers ask these questions! I mean, there are only just a few really bood red flags, so why don't we do the right thing and TRUST them?

I start trusting people again when I find out how my unicorn died.

 

[Robert21]

Any link to Leindeers' current status with Sky and who he was replaced with would be much appreciated.

By me too. I haven't seen any official announcement on this and isn't Brailsford worried that if they don't keep him on the roster, people will die, or was the reason they gave for employing him actually BS?

Whatever, I am sure that Sky have learned a lot from having Rabobank's former doping meister on the team.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Tiernan Locke to Sky

So do you get it now Jimmy Fingers ???

Tiernan Locke and SKY ??

Need it spelling out for you anymore ?? apart from the whole team being with him at the end of the race...and Brailsford saying he is a huge talent that he can work with....oh and being in the worlds next week alongside Froome

 

[Cycle Chic]

Shane Stokes cycling‏@SSbike
Sky's riding at the front also helps controls things for rumoured future rider JTL; his points will go towards Sky's UCI total

 

[Avoriaz]

So do you get it now Jimmy Fingers ???
Need it spelling out for you anymore ?? apart from the whole team being with him at the end of the race...and Brailsford saying he is a huge talent that he can work with....oh and being in the worlds next week alongside Froome

Not forgetting Mark Cavendish of, erm, Sky winning the last stage. Lucky for him Sky rode at the front to protect someone from another team

 

[Cycle Chic]

Sucked In

Not forgetting Mark Cavendish of, erm, Sky winning the last stage. Lucky for him Sky rode at the front to protect someone from another team

yeh if you cant smell 'a put up job' on this one ...go buy a Sky Team Jersey

Or come down with a stomach bug cause you know the outcome.

 

[Avoriaz]

yeh if you cant smell 'a put up job' on this one ...go buy a Sky Team Jersey

Or come down with a stomach bug cause you know the outcome.

Well, having watched the race today (in part on the course and in part on TV), JTL didn't need any help from anybody today. If he goes to Sky then good for them/him - he'll bring points, and he can win races.

Still think Sky were on the front for Cavendish. He was motivated for the win (as seen by his bothering to ride up hills) as today is his last race in the rainbow jersey. And, blow me, he only went and won it.

So Sky shouldn't try and win races now? Because trying to win for them is just like if they win - another sign of cheating and corruption?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Its well known teams will collude, and riders from different teams will support each other in exchange for aid in other races, that's cycling, and it has been a part of the sport for a long time and to try to smear Sky for doing it in this race is daft really.

And the fact remains they would have wanted to win it with Rowe if they could have done and they certainly didn't throw the race for JTL. Once they were out of contention the situation changes. The crucial penultimate stage Endura did all the work anyway, today Sky raced to give Cav his last win in the Rainbow jersey, a huge priority for him and the team. Ensuring no hiccups for JTL was a by-product, but as I said alliances are formed off and on the road between teams are riders, no dark secret there.

 

[Krebs cycle]

Poor Sky, protected by the UCI with their spare no expense systematic team wide next level mystery doping program that can turn donkeys into racehorses, could only manage a paltry 9th place in the WC TTT.

 

[hrotha]

Poor Sky, protected by the UCI with their spare no expense systematic team wide next level mystery doping program that can turn donkeys into racehorses, could only manage a paltry 9th place in the WC TTT.

You continue to wilfully misapply the term "team wide doping program". "Team wide" hasn't been literally "team wide" in ages, and this has been pointed out countless times before.

I don't see any of the Tenerife boys in the Sky lineup.

 

[the big ring]

Poor Sky, protected by the UCI with their spare no expense systematic team wide next level mystery doping program that can turn donkeys into racehorses, could only manage a paltry 9th place in the WC TTT.

Sky's TTers are

Mick Rogers
Richie Porte
Chris Froome
Bradley Wiggins

Missing those 4 dominating riders still allowed Sky to beat

Lotto
Garmin
Saxobank
Astana

When you look at the overall, Liquigas came 4th at 49.6km/hr. With a decimated TT squad, Sky were only .4km/hr (1%) slower at 49.2km/hr.

The winners only managed 50.4km/hr.

Compare that to the final TT at the Tour, where Brad put more time into Chris Froome at second (1:16) over the same distance, averaging 50km/hr, than the winners did today over 5th place (1:08).

Given the time is taken on rider #4, the Sky Tenerife Team would have put minutes into second place today, not 3 seconds. This is borne out by the teams classification for the final time trial at the 2012 TdF:

1 Sky Procycling 3:16:20 +1:10:08
2 Omega Pharma-Quick Step 0:06:01 +1:09:50 (=6:01 - :18 = 5:43) (1st place WC TTT 2012)


Once again, Krebs Cycle, your "careful analysis" of "just the facts" is fatally flawed. Having taken the time to post what you did, I can imagine you will now turn around - again - and say you meant nothing by it, and my response is completely ridiculous.

 

[Krebs cycle]

You continue to wilfully misapply the term "team wide doping program". "Team wide" hasn't been literally "team wide" in ages, and this has been pointed out countless times before.

I don't see any of the Tenerife boys in the Sky lineup.

What a massive backpeddle. During the TdF so many of you guys were saying that the doping program is a systematic team program and they are all on it. Many of you specifically pointed to the performances of Rogers, Froome and Porte as part of your corroborating "evidence" of this alleged fact.

Besides, how would you or anyone know what "team wide" means or how many of the riders on the team do or don't get a doping program that is managed by one of the team staff? Pie in the sky idle speculation.

Sky's TTers are

Mick Rogers
Richie Porte
Chris Froome
Bradley Wiggins

Who cares if Wiggins, Froome, Rogers and Porte were not in the TTT? If their doping program is so good that it can make racehorses out of Froome, Rogers and Porte, then why can't it do the same for Stannard, Thomas and the rest?


Once again it's simply wild speculation that Sky hire a dodgey doctor with the intent of overseeing a "team" program that the lot of you say has enabled them to maintain a season long dominating peak in performance, but then they just decide not to give the program to the WC squad?

Does not make any sense unless you want to believe they are doping and then you invent some crackpot theory to fit your belief. Following the Vuelta the theories got more and more convoluted and ridiculous, but you continue to deny the possibility of the most simple explanation for what looks a lot like a team that isn't doping.... they aren't doping.

And surely you can't be trying to compare average velocity for different TT courses and making some sort of conclusion about doping? Have you ever ridden a bike before in your entire life dude?

 

[the big ring]

And surely you can't be trying to compare average velocity for different TT courses and making some sort of conclusion about doping?

That's right, I'm not. I'm comparing summed performances in the TdF TT of the riders missing from Sky's TTT to the team that won the WC TTT this year.

The fact that the distances and speeds were the same were just delicious irony.

As for dodgy comparisons, it's not like you ever compared two riders riding on wet vs dry roads on a technical circuit to explain how one rider is nearly as good as another. oh wait.

You're being dishonest to ignore the lack of the real Tenerife Talent from the Sky TTT team when mentioning their result.

Ever heard of USPS? Not everyone was on the program. Anyone who knew anything beyond 2012 Sky team performance knows this.

Once again I have said nothing about doping, but have dismantled your point entirely.

 

[the big ring]

I feel as though Wiggins has become completely irrelevant to this discussion. I'm not even defending Wiggins anymore. I'm defending science, logic and reason against the dark forces of irrationality.

I'm not even defending Sky. I couldn't care less about Sky or Wiggins.

I am defending basic common sense, truth and reason.

To anyone who cares....

On this last point, Wiggins is in fact quite irrelevant to my opinions. It makes no difference to me whether it is Wiggins, Cadel Evans, Greg Lemond, that guy we shall not name, or any other pro cyclist in the entire history of the sport.

I am defending the scientific rationale, developed over 40 or 50yrs of research, which could potentially explain small changes in performance that could stem from things such as...

Just wondering what part of "not defending sky" your most recent post satisfies?

Poor Sky, protected by the UCI with their spare no expense systematic team wide next level mystery doping program that can turn donkeys into racehorses, could only manage a paltry 9th place in the WC TTT.

There are other riders being discussed here, with unbelievable performances. I don't see you defending them or their teams...

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Missing those 4 dominating riders still allowed Sky to beat

Lotto
Garmin
Saxobank
Astana

So are you saying that those teams were fielding their strongest TTers?

 

[the big ring]

So are you saying that those teams were fielding their strongest TTers?

All I am saying is Sky did not have their A team there. It's irrelevant that they came "only" 9th and proves nothing - particularly when they were 1% off 4th with their B team.

Do you honestly believe a ready Sky team of those 4 riders +EBH and the other IPer would not have annihilated the TTT regardless of who showed up on the other teams?

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

All I am saying is Sky did not have their A team there. It's irrelevant that they came "only" 9th and proves nothing - particularly when they were 1% off 4th with their B team.

Do you honestly believe a ready Sky team of those 4 riders +EBH and the other IPer would not have annihilated the TTT regardless of who showed up on the other teams?

I don't get what you are trying to say. Sure, they might have won. But then again they might have lost if everyone else had their full teams. Garmin typically do well in the TTT as I recall but they were nowhere here.

 

[sittingbison]

I don't get what you are trying to say. Sure, they might have won. But then again they might have lost if everyone else had their full teams...

Let me help you out here Pedro. Big Ring explained it pretty clearly, you even quoted him yourself:

...Do you honestly believe a ready Sky team of those 4 riders +EBH and the other IPer would not have annihilated the TTT regardless of who showed up on the other teams?

I think its pretty clear what he is saying

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Let me help you out here Pedro. Big Ring explained it pretty clearly, you even quoted him yourself:



I think its pretty clear what he is saying

I am saying we will never know. Just because you have the best ITT riders does not mean that you will TT the best as a team. Is that clear enough for you?

 

[the big ring]

I am saying we will never know. Just because you have the best ITT riders does not mean that you will TT the best as a team. Is that clear enough for you?

based on 4-5 mountain tt's in the tour. ridden as mountain tts. dropping almost everyone.