Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[the big ring]

The 2010 Tour performance can be explained numerous ways, depending on how one thinks 1 and 2 happened.

Agreed. And for my money, even though he ended up autobussing it, in 2010 he did ride the Giro prior.

He did come 4th in 2009, and surely, with a massive budget compared to Garmin, could have equalled that at least, without changing a thing he did in 2009.

Instead, we get this Kerrison injection and that's the reason everything is so damn hot in Sky town for the last 2 years. As if 2009 was a blip or a dream.

Either way you cut it, something just isn't adding up.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

It would be interesting to look at the career of Sky's latest signing:

If, as is widely rumoured, Jon Tiernan-Locke joins Sky next year then his sudden arrival as a contender at World level in his late 20s can easily be explained by the fact he had Epstein Barr in his early to mid 20s, thus preventing his true potential being obvious sooner.

Based on this pattern, involving Froome and JTL, Sky's next "main man" is most likely to be Alex Dowsett, who has haemophilia, which must also disguise a lot of early potential!

 

[the big ring]

If, as is widely rumoured, Jon Tiernan-Locke joins Sky next year then his sudden arrival as a contender at World level in his late 20s can easily be explained by the fact he had Epstein Barr in his early to mid 20s, thus preventing his true potential being obvious sooner.

Based on this pattern, involving Froome and JTL, Sky's next "main man" is most likely to be Alex Dowsett, who has haemophilia, which must also disguise a lot of early potential!

How does haemophilia disguise potential? I just thought it meant your blood doesn't clot?

It's ok to tell me to jfgi, but I am surprised this affliction has any bearing.

 

[sittingbison]

Assuming you're talking about Wiggo here, this description is somewhat misleading, for as you well know, Wiggo was a Tour contender three years ago, so there are actually two changes in Wiggo:

1 - The change aged 28-29 from autobus fodder, albeit as a track specialist, to podium contender against the last two "best riders of their generation" ie a strong field

2 - The change from to age 32 to be a GT winner against a very weak field

The 2010 Tour performance can be explained numerous ways, depending on how one thinks 1 and 2 happened.

Agreed the first transformation in wiggo from autobus to 4th was at Garmin, nothing to do with Sky. So the claims that team based scientific method training Sky with Kerrison are responsible for his transformation are doubly moot.

BTW thanks for the laugh with Dowsett

 

[sittingbison]

How does haemophilia disguise potential? I just thought it meant your blood doesn't clot?

It's ok to tell me to jfgi, but I am surprised this affliction has any bearing.

now that would be an excellent trait to have when you are super dosing with blood thickener EPO. You could get a good nights sleep

BTW I do not like making a joke about the terrible tragedy of all those young Belgium and Dutch riders dieing from EPO back in the early 90s.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

How does haemophilia disguise potential? I just thought it meant your blood doesn't clot?

It was a joke. I doubt it does, though crashes might pose an issue.

It's easier to justify sudden late-20s changes in performance if a rider has an unusual past, particularly a nasty sounding illness. Doping is, on balance, the most likely cause to be expected, as highlighted by the gigabytes of discussion re Wiggo, but if there's a nasty illness in the past to call on, the supporters of a doped rider can claim this as a reason for underperformance in the past.

It works with Froome, even though pre Vuelta 2011, there was no mention of him having had Bilharzia.

Note, I'm talking about plausible explanations for the masses, not the actual reasons here.

 

[thehog]

It was a joke. I doubt it does, though crashes might pose an issue.

It's easier to justify sudden late-20s changes in performance if a rider has an unusual past, particularly a nasty sounding illness. Doping is, on balance, the most likely cause to be expected, as highlighted by the gigabytes of discussion re Wiggo, but if there's a nasty illness in the past to call on, the supporters of a doped rider can claim this as a reason for underperformance in the past.

It works with Froome, even though pre Vuelta 2011, there was no mention of him having had Bilharzia.

Note, I'm talking about plausible explanations for the masses, not the actual reasons here.

There's no turning back now. Sky have set the bar. They can't put down the regime now and return to regular doping.

As my predictions are right 98% of the time I predict that we'll see some very up and down performances next year from the Sky team. Mainly as the grapple in maintain the program and their own conscious in doing so.

At least USPS had good reason to dope. Sky don't.

 

[RichWalk]

There's no turning back now. Sky have set the bar. They can't put down the regime now and return to regular doping.

As my predictions are right 98% of the time I predict that we'll see some very up and down performances next year from the Sky team. Mainly as the grapple in maintain the program and their own conscious in doing so.

At least USPS had good reason to dope. Sky don't.

Oh they do, they are *cleaning up British cycling*

 

[the big ring]

It was a joke. I doubt it does, though crashes might pose an issue.

...
It works with Froome, even though pre Vuelta 2011, there was no mention of him having had Bilharzia.

Note, I'm talking about plausible explanations for the masses, not the actual reasons here.

Gosh darnit!

I'm still smarting from your "Johnny Foreigner" quip a week ago - I'll get your sense of humour soon. Well played sir, well played.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Gosh darnit!

I'm still smarting from your "Johnny Foreigner" quip a week ago - I'll get your sense of humour soon. Well played sir, well played.

The Johnny Foreigner quip was not directed at you specifically. Some of my best friends are Johhny Foreigners. It just an observation that I like seeing Wiggo routing the opposition, most of whom are foreign!

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

There's no turning back now. Sky have set the bar. They can't put down the regime now and return to regular doping.

As my predictions are right 98% of the time I predict that we'll see some very up and down performances next year from the Sky team. Mainly as the grapple in maintain the program and their own conscious in doing so.

At least USPS had good reason to dope. Sky don't.

Sky next year will depend on how "up" for the challenges Wiggo is. No point wasting resources/taking risks on an unmotivated Wiggo or an unmarketable Froome.

Giro course looks quite favourable for Wiggo, it must be said, and a favourable Tour course might see him going for the double...

 

[thehog]

Sky next year will depend on how "up" for the challenges Wiggo is. No point wasting resources/taking risks on an unmotivated Wiggo or an unmarketable Froome.

Giro course looks quite favourable for Wiggo, it must be said, and a favourable Tour course might see him going for the double...

The risk is the biggest risk. Not for turning positive but at some point just like at USPS someone gets p1ssed off with the whole thing.

Loose lips sink ships.

 

[RichWalk]

Without reading the whole thread again, what are the 'knowledgebles' views on Cavendish within Sky, he seems more of a bolt on to me and if he is on anything he's damn good and making it look like he isn't. Well unless its the last 250 of a stage

 

[thehog]

The risk is the biggest risk. Not for turning positive but at some point just like at USPS someone gets p1ssed off with the whole thing.

Loose lips sink ships.

I would add that Leinders is smokescreen. They hired him exactly for his past. They knew it would be scrutinised. The reason they hired and he did provide some services for 80 days is it diverts attention that the Team Tenerife is working with Ferrari.

 

[Parrulo]

is blasting into the scene in your late 20's due to a illness on your early 20's the new black of cycling?

or at least for british cycling. . .

 

[D-Queued]

Without reading the whole thread again, what are the 'knowledgebles' views on Cavendish within Sky, he seems more of a bolt on to me and if he is on anything he's damn good and making it look like he isn't. Well unless its the last 250 of a stage

Call me knowledgeable or naive, but if I can paraphrase Lance (from Tyler's book):

Not normal. Period.

Dave.

 

[RichWalk]

Call me knowledgeable or naive, but if I can paraphrase Lance (from Tyler's book):

Not normal. Period.

Dave.

Cheers Dave, he seems to largely fly under the public radar of suspicion, suppose its just his role is completely different and allows him to languish near the back or in the bus on most stages.

 

[bobbins]

I would add that Leinders is smokescreen. They hired him exactly for his past. They knew it would be scrutinised. The reason they hired and he did provide some services for 80 days is it diverts attention that the Team Tenerife is working with Ferrari.

Any proof of that? They are up to something. I don't think there is any doubt. The team did tell sky that the majority of the tour top 10 were juicing, I guess they got told to join in.

 

[Catwhoorg]

What he will bring is some hard miles on the front of the bunch.Just likeJez Hunt (Retired)

Pretty much what I expect. Sky have lost Flecha, Barry and Hunt from their older Dom's and he is probably good value in contract terms.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

is blasting into the scene in your late 20's due to a illness on your early 20's the new black of cycling?

or at least for british cycling. . .

Everyone will be doing it soon. To pull off the "It's all due to losing weight, training harder and chancing cadence" gig, you need to be a national icon before you improve, a la Wiggo. For the non-Wiggo types, you need a good cover story. Jon Tiernan Locke has been faffing around at Rapha and Endura whilst good enough to win major races, but he's had to serve his time to make his Froome-like performances in 2013 after recovering from illness a plausible story. Brailsford has been recruiting riders for years; long before Team Sky was thought of. I strongly suspect that the security services are involved to ensure "legends" and documents are up to stratch. In the not too distant future, Israel will dominate world cycling, as they have Mossad, a security service so good, that even Brailsford couldn't improve it.

 

[bobbins]

Watching the Team Sky documentary. If they think that they were the first team to use a chopper to fly riders from the mountains, have a decent bus or use their own beds then they must think we're stupid. 5 minute fans like all those cretins in the press who believe all this BS are the problem that helps dirty teams get away with it.

I did think they were clean. Not so sure now.

 

[thehog]

Any proof of that? They are up to something. I don't think there is any doubt. The team did tell sky that the majority of the tour top 10 were juicing, I guess they got told to join in.

Oh yes. And a lot of logic. They're using the Ferrari template. Period.

Not all of them but the core group just like USPS.

But you know not all can look at that blood bag and just keep doing it.

Soon I will start the thread: Are Wiggins and Sky using Ferrari? - when I do. Wait to see the "sticks" come out of the woodwork and defend their position.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Oh yes. And a lot of logic. They're using the Ferrari template. Period.

Not all of them but the core group just like USPS.

But you know not all can look at that blood bag and just keep doing it.

Soon I will start the thread: Are Wiggins and Sky using Ferrari? - when I do. Wait to see the "sticks" come out of the woodwork and defend their position.

Makes sense - everything will now be being changed FAST. As Hog says its stuff like Ferrari and leinders being a smokescreen that will be being thought of. NEW covers and bluffs. 'Those other basta**s are at it '

I watched the 4th episode of Road To Glory last night - I hadnt wanted to give them an extra viewing figure but thought I would 'look out for Spider Scars on Sean Yates's arms I was pleasantly surprised at how much was shown, a real fly on the wall, seeing stuff I didnt expect to....but then I thought 'Why would Sky be showing this ? ' its not showing a Happy Camp.

We saw the Froome '**** up' at the Tour and were allowed to see that our suspicions were correct....there was a rift between Wiggins and Froome ...Yates and Brailsford rolling their eyes and chastising him, Froome on the trainer impersonating Wiggins as he walked past - kind of surprising that they showed that sort of stuff. But then is it ?? why would they show that ? to slur Froome and turn the fans against him ?

And then there was the Cavendish parts of the documentary....again, Cavendish was not seen in a good light...staff calling him 'up and down' , moody and temperamental. And hey ho - we then discover Cav is leaving....well Sky fans dont mind now do they - cause he is a moody little git....he is !! cause we saw it on Road To Glory.

 

[armchairclimber]

That stuff stays in the doc because the editorial team are smart enough to know that it makes good television. It feeds the birds...giving some "behind the scenes" reality.

 

[zapata]

I wanted to start a new thread but not sure it's worth it.
It would be interesting to look at the career of Sky's latest signing: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rasch-joins-boasson-hagen-at-sky-for-2013



2009-2010 Cervelo test team, no real results to mention.
2011 Garmin "new age", no real results to mention.
2012 FDJ-BigMat "old skool", no real results again.
2013 IAM briefly but now with Sky "new age".

At 36 years of age (37 next year and 38 the year after), I am curious what Sky believe he is going to bring to the table.

It's most definitely not worth it. Rasch is going to sky because Hagen wants him there, no other reason. He's a pretty strong rouleur, good in wind and echelons, and he'll earn his wage riding at the front in flat races. It's not like he's suddenly going to podium in the vuelta.