Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[The Hitch]

As well as the investigation into Leinders (that Brailsford ran away from when questioned about it at the Worlds), there's also the fans' Q&A at the Manchester Velodrome that was supposed to happen in September. What happened to that?

The British national supremacist cycling commentator, gallachar something who "writes" for the telegraph, said in his piece after armstrong affair, which argued that Britain was always going to win the TOur once doping was erradicated, that no one turned up to that and used it as air tight proof that sky is clean.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

how exactly does Garmin come out of this looking credible?
If sky turn out to be dirty, one of the few solid conclusions we can draw is that JV has been selling us horseloads of dogcrap.
are you really saying JV's marginal gains talk alternating with the occasional give-away rant ("you haters don't love cycling") here in clinic have impressed you?
When confronted with Ashenden's recent statements, JV explicitly questioned Ashenden's credibiliy, rather than showing concern about the actual content of Ashenden's message.
None of this, really none, is consistent with a sincere anti-doping stand.

Garmin comes out of this looking credible because, disappointing or unfulfilling as you may have found the answers, they've actually taken the time to read the questions.

I may not like everything JV tells us, and I may not believe everything JV tells us, but it's a hell of a lot more transparent than Sky's idea of transparency, which appears to be completely opaque.

 

[itisaboutthebike]

Yes but you didn't warm down properly

Hog.............I beg to disagree......on half of those 9 days it was cold & ****ing down with rain coming off Teide in the afternoon................so muchos warm-downoss...........

 

[itisaboutthebike]

No-one seems to have replied to my previous post..........am I right to be concerned ?

Didn't realise a Team Sky owner (Brian Cookson) was also on the UCI Managment committe - conflict if interst or what ?

"TRL (Tour Racing Limited) is a holding company owned by BSkyB and on the board of TRL are two senior Sky executives and Ian Drake and Brian Cookson, the chief executive and president of British Cycling"

 

[Benotti69]

Garmin comes out of this looking credible because, disappointing or unfulfilling as you may have found the answers, they've actually taken the time to read the questions.

I may not like everything JV tells us, and I may not believe everything JV tells us, but it's a hell of a lot more transparent than Sky's idea of transparency, which appears to be completely opaque.

Hell of a lot more transparent than opaque is not much

 

[Benotti69]

No-one seems to have replied to my previous post..........am I right to be concerned ?

Why, are you suggesting that Sky might have influence in the UCI which might mean they would have advance notice of OOC testing or be able to bury positives? Outrageous, such a thing could never ever happen in the sport of pro cycling.

 

[roundabout]

President of the Road Commission

http://www.uci.ch/templates/UCI/UCI1/layout.asp?MenuId=MTI3MDI&LangId=1

But I have NFI how influential it actually is

 

[thehog]

No-one seems to have replied to my previous post..........am I right to be concerned ?

The Postal template down to the finest detail.

Rather than donations as that brings attention just put team owners on the board.

You can safely say no British rider or team Sky rider will ever test positive ever.

Question: Do passport cases go to the board for review?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

No-one seems to have replied to my previous post..........am I right to be concerned ?

Isn't Cookson there in his role as BC President, not there as a stakeholder.
That was mentioned in a tweet by someone and corrected after.

 

[Parker]

No-one seems to have replied to my previous post..........am I right to be concerned ?

"Didn't realise a Team Sky owner (Brian Cookson) was also on the UCI Managment committe - conflict if interst or what ?

"TRL (Tour Racing Limited) is a holding company owned by BSkyB and on the board of TRL are two senior Sky executives and Ian Drake and Brian Cookson, the chief executive and president of British Cycling"

He doesn't own any of the team and he's not on the board of TRL. The directors can be found here: http://www.cdrex.com/tour-racing-limited/board-3636202.html (all BSkyB employees I believe)

What Cookson is part of is the team's operations committee as a representative of British Cycling, to oversee the sharing of personnel, facilities etc.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

how exactly does Garmin come out of this looking credible?
If sky turn out to be dirty, one of the few solid conclusions we can draw is that JV has been selling us horseloads of dogcrap.
are you really saying JV's marginal gains talk alternating with the occasional give-away rant ("you haters don't love cycling") here in clinic have impressed you?

Of course you are happily ignoring JV explicitly stating on here he has no idea what happens at Sky.

Also, I don't remember JV saying "you haters don't love cycling", but I do remember him saying something like that you were clueless - which is quite correct.

When confronted with Ashenden's recent statements, JV explicitly questioned Ashenden's credibiliy, rather than showing concern about the actual content of Ashenden's message.
None of this, really none, is consistent with a sincere anti-doping stand.

JV did not question Ashendens credibility - he did question how much access he had to data.
It's rather pathetic that you continue to twist Ashendens serious point to further your own lies.

 

[itisaboutthebike]

He doesn't own any of the team and he's not on the board of TRL. The directors can be found here: http://www.cdrex.com/tour-racing-lim...d-3636202.html (all BSkyB employees I believe)

What Cookson is part of is the team's operations committee as a representative of British Cycling, to oversee the sharing of personnel, facilities etc.

Cycling Weeklys mistake as I was quoting a piece on thier webshyte...................

But still - why is someone whose heavily connected with Team Sky on the UCI management comittee ?

 

[sniper]

Garmin comes out of this looking credible because, disappointing or unfulfilling as you may have found the answers, they've actually taken the time to read the questions.

I may not like everything JV tells us, and I may not believe everything JV tells us, but it's a hell of a lot more transparent than Sky's idea of transparency, which appears to be completely opaque.

JV's actions and words are very consistent with selling anti-doping as a brandmark, not with anti-doping per se.

Also, I don't remember JV saying "you haters don't love cycling"

selective memory problems i see.

to try and bring this back on topic:
Sky being dirty makes JV look either like a naive fool, or like somebody who sells fairy tales to naive cycling fans. Which one is it? Or is Sky clean?

 

[thehog]

Cycling Weeklys mistake as I was quoting a piece on thier webshyte...................

But still - why is someone whose heavily connected with Team Sky on the UCI management comittee ?

Do other teams have similar representation?

 

[Parker]

Do other teams have similar representation?

No teams have someone loosely connected to their team on their committee - so no team has similar representation

Katusha, on the other hand, have someone who is genuinely heavily involved with their team on the management committee.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

JV's actions and words are very consistent with selling anti-doping as a brandmark, not with anti-doping per se.


selective memory problems i see.

to try and bring this back on topic:
Sky being dirty makes JV look either like a naive fool, or like somebody who sells fairy tales to naive cycling fans. Which one is it? Or is Sky clean?

Great - you want to pull some quotes to back up what you said?
Like JV questioning Ashendens credibility - we can start there.

 

[badboygolf16v]

JV's actions and words are very consistent with selling anti-doping as a brandmark, not with anti-doping per se.

Sky being dirty makes JV look either like a naive fool, or like somebody who sells fairy tales to naive cycling fans. Which one is it? Or is Sky clean?

I'm sympathetic to your viewpoint, mainly because it's pretty much the same as mine!

JV has never addressed the Trent Lowe - del Moral episode. He has publicly made the ridiculous statement that a skinsuit offers the same performance gain as EPO. He has publicly stated 'Bradley is clean', which given his knowledge of cycling is very bold. He has publicly labelled those on this forum who hold the cynics line of being mentally ill.

Too much at stake, too much to lose to be taken at face value in my opinion.

 

[thehog]

No teams have someone loosely connected to their team on their committee - so no team has similar representation

Katusha, on the other hand, have someone who is genuinely heavily involved with their team on the management committee.

Then its a conflict. If all teams don't have an opportunity or not as equally represented then its stinks.

On its own it may not appear much but when you couple it with the surge to total domination then it gets very smelly.

I like Wiggins. Always have. I like his acerbic wit. But I think even himself wouldn't like what its all become.

But like I said they've got the USPS template down pat and in lieu of donations they have a mouthpiece on the board.

They've done well. Thats probably the best marginal gain they made.

No wonder McQuaid is so enamoured with them.

 

[MatParker117]

Sky's a unique situation as the Pro Team and National team are pretty much interchangeable bar David Millar and Steve Cummings.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

JV's actions and words are very consistent with selling anti-doping as a brandmark, not with anti-doping per se.


selective memory problems i see.

to try and bring this back on topic:
Sky being dirty makes JV look either like a naive fool, or like somebody who sells fairy tales to naive cycling fans. Which one is it? Or is Sky clean?

That was always my problem with JV's actions and words, sure.

However, the guy is actually engaging with discussion of the topic, sometimes to his detriment, as he clearly gets exasperated with the lot of us sometimes. Take the San Millán thread as an example, where he told us off for not knowing the whole story, but hrotha pointed out that how are we to know the whole story if nobody tells us? Brailsford's too busy running away from interviewers asking naïve questions about investigations that were supposed to have been going on internally to answer the kind of questions we get on the forum, and Wiggins is too busy calling people - that he was one of five years ago - a bunch of ****s, ****s, ******s and *******s for daring to not swallow this whole.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Got to say, while I've always had my reservations about Garmin, and have had my disagreements with Vaughters' opinions over the years, he certainly comes out of this looking an awful lot better.

A few questions:
1. Is professional soccer dirty, as in doping?
2. Dr Carlos Gonzalez was Garmin's team doctor for 2010. He was previously the head physiologist at Real Madrid. One of his qualifications come from Spanish Olympic committee. He got his phlebotomist quals before / while heading to Garmin.

In my mind, this is no different to Leinders @ Sky, except JV dodged a bullet coz noone on his team had managed to win a GT.

Now that Ryder has won a GT on "team clean", the ABP and its mostly ineffective value to anti-doping is made apparent by JV releasing Ryder's blood values.

JV has also made a number of claims that are clearly WRONG but made in an attempt to "explain away" performance numbers that reek of "not normal". These include: skinsuit claim and anaerobic contribution to climbing claim. He has also said Dekker is going to lose 4kg of weight and increase his total power - not his power:weight, his absolute power.

Here's my final factoid:

1. JV claims Brad came 4th at the Tour in 2009 clean. But Brad trained with Sky's Rod Ellingworth, in Manchester and Girona. There was little to no contact between Brad and JV in 2009. How do you know someone's clean? Via their passport numbers?
2. JV claims Ryder was clean when winning the Giro in 2012. Imagine this: your brand new, 4 year old team are winning their first ever GT and you are not there to witness it. How does that even make sense? How the hell do you know your rider is clean? Because he looks you in the eye and tells you?
3. Look at the rider-boss interaction for the Lowe incident. Emails with no replies for weeks at a time.

Perception is reality.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Did I say Garmin were clean?

I just implied that when two teams profess to be the embodiment of clean cycling in the péloton, and one of those teams feature guys who speak to the fans about doping, even if their hands are tied and they often resent doing it, and the other team treats the fans like mugs and runs away or resorts to four letter words every time even an implication is brought up, then the first team comes out of it looking better.

Sky's complete and utter refusal to engage on anything other than their own terms, and ducking and dodging questioning while parroting the same PR speak makes them seem inherently untrustworthy. Vaughters may pick and choose what he responds to, and I may not believe everything he says, but by posting in the Clinic he is at least acknowledging fans' doubts even if he isn't assuaging them. And while he may find us infuriating, insulting and prying, the very fact that he actually talks to us rather than dismissing us as a bunch of idle ****s who have collectively never achieved anything in our lives not worthy of their time makes him come across better.

Just saying that Garmin don't conduct business in as outwardly suspicious a manner as Sky.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

A few questions:
1. Is professional soccer dirty, as in doping?
2. Dr Carlos Gonzalez was Garmin's team doctor for 2010. He was previously the head physiologist at Real Madrid. One of his qualifications come from Spanish Olympic committee. He got his phlebotomist quals before / while heading to Garmin.

In my mind, this is no different to Leinders @ Sky, except JV dodged a bullet coz noone on his team had managed to win a GT.

Now that Ryder has won a GT on "team clean", the ABP and its mostly ineffective value to anti-doping is made apparent by JV releasing Ryder's blood values.

JV has also made a number of claims that are clearly WRONG but made in an attempt to "explain away" performance numbers that reek of "not normal". These include: skinsuit claim and anaerobic contribution to climbing claim. He has also said Dekker is going to lose 4kg of weight and increase his total power - not his power:weight, his absolute power.

Here's my final factoid:

1. JV claims Brad came 4th at the Tour in 2009 clean. But Brad trained with Sky's Rod Ellingworth, in Manchester and Girona. There was little to no contact between Brad and JV in 2009. How do you know someone's clean? Via their passport numbers?
2. JV claims Ryder was clean when winning the Giro in 2012. Imagine this: your brand new, 4 year old team are winning their first ever GT and you are not there to witness it. How does that even make sense? How the hell do you know your rider is clean? Because he looks you in the eye and tells you?
3. Look at the rider-boss interaction for the Lowe incident. Emails with no replies for weeks at a time.

Perception is reality.

Am, where were the first "factoids"?

 

[The Hitch]

ah, Kimmages quotes were storyfied: http://storify.com/UCI_Overlord/pau...fy-pingback&awesm=sfy.co_oAEY&utm_source=t.co

(makes much easier reading)

pff. looks like those irish are still bitter about Cromwell and that

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Did I say Garmin were clean?
.

Nope, you said JV's attempts at explaining what's going on are better than what Brailsford is doing.

My take on it is that they are both operating from the same coin, even though from different sides.

Personally, I prefer a liar to say nothing. More believable that way.