Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Mrs John Murphy]

Sorry I'm getting back to this so late (or early)
Well, the timeline could hardly be worse, in terms of those speculating.

Spanish raid and arrests on Gran Canaria and Tenerife took place, on or abouts 21st-22nd October 2010.
Ferrari conversation with LB on December 1st, 2010.
Wiggins training on Tenerife, January 2011.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/may/23/bradley-wiggins-tour-de-france

You see this is why I asked the question about viable alternatives to Tenerife in the first place.

To me, to return there before the dust had even had time to settle would be extremely ballsy, but also extremely risky. (no to mention stupid)
Totally contrary to the masters micro management.

Cheers.

Ballsy and provocative but we know that Ferrari is if nothing else ballsy and provocative.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Sorry I'm getting back to this so late (or early)
Well, the timeline could hardly be worse, in terms of those speculating.

Spanish raid and arrests on Gran Canaria and Tenerife took place, on or abouts 21st-22nd October 2010.
Ferrari conversation with LB on December 1st, 2010.
Wiggins training on Tenerife, January 2011.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/may/23/bradley-wiggins-tour-de-france

You see this is why I asked the question about viable alternatives to Tenerife in the first place.

To me, to return there before the dust had even had time to settle would be extremely ballsy, but also extremely risky. (no to mention stupid)
Totally contrary to the masters micro management.

Neatly summated and I would say pretty conclusive. I think people need to remember that Tenerife is a great place to train in the winter and that is why people go there, not because the mountain is hollowed out and full of Poe, with Ferrari's evil lair right at it's heart.

I would say the Ferrari-Tenerife-Sky axis has been largely debunked, as I said a red herring, almost too obvious to hold any water

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Really? It is a set of arguments, no more definitive than any other arguments put forward for or against Sky training with Ferrari. But of course because it gives you the result you want it is determined to be 'conclusive'.

This is more about your near religious fervour when it comes to Sky. You've got emotionally invested in Wiggins haven't you.

You need to remember Zhou Enlai.

 

[thehog]

Sorry I'm getting back to this so late (or early)
Well, the timeline could hardly be worse, in terms of those speculating.

Spanish raid and arrests on Gran Canaria and Tenerife took place, on or abouts 21st-22nd October 2010.
Ferrari conversation with LB on December 1st, 2010.
Wiggins training on Tenerife, January 2011.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/may/23/bradley-wiggins-tour-de-france

You see this is why I asked the question about viable alternatives to Tenerife in the first place.

To me, to return there before the dust had even had time to settle would be extremely ballsy, but also extremely risky. (no to mention stupid)
Totally contrary to the masters micro management.

Permission to cross examine?

Just so I understand. A clean zero tolerance Sky even after the raids of October 2010 and unbeknown to the Ferrari warnings and with their Yates.Rogers.Armstrong Tenerife connection decided to travel there? for the first time? Really?

Does that not seem or appear risky? and this debunks the Tenerife myth?

After doping raids on the island you decide its a good place to visit and train?

or an alternate view...

As if you say Ferrari was recorded in 2010 as saying "something" to Begglotli whom was mid-ranked cyclist at best.

Was he "clearing" the decks of the mid-range low ranked riders from to reduce the risk of Tenerife in Ferrari real words "over used" - "burnt" so that higher priced clients - "Sky" could train there?

Possible. Both scenarios are possible with my scenario more probable.

What doesn't makes sense is why would Sky go there clean after all that "activity" you present in your post? Doesn't make sense.


I will add one final comment. You don't go to Tenerife to do nothing but dope. It serves a purposes as part of a year long doping program. Its for testing, dope masking and consultation. Its not a shooting gallery from Sweden.


The final question is - if you were going to dope would you go to an Alpine resort in Italy/France where doping is illegal by law or a remote island in Spain where its not?

I'lll leave that one with you

 

[RownhamHill]

Permission to cross examine?

Just so I understand. A clean zero tolerance Sky even after the raids of October 2010 and unbeknown to the Ferrari warnings and with their Yates.Rogers.Armstrong Tenerife connection decided to travel there? for the first time? Really?

Does that not seem or appear risky? and this debunks the Tenerife myth?

After doping raids on the island you decide its a good place to visit and train?



What doesn't makes sense is why would Sky go there clean after all that "activity" you present in your post? Doesn't make sense.

If Sky were clean (use your imagination for a moment) why would they care if there had been doping activity? Why would it be risky? What is the risk exactly?

or an alternate view...

As if you say Ferrari was recorded in 2010 as saying "something" to Begglotli whom was mid-ranked cyclist at best.

Was he "clearing" the decks of the mid-range low ranked riders from to reduce the risk of Tenerife in Ferrari real words "over used" - "burnt" so that higher priced clients - "Sky" could train there?

Possible. Both scenarios are possible with my scenario more probable.

But how would Begglotli's non-presence or presence affect Sky's risk matrix in training on Tenerife? Specifically, what difference would it make? Consider that Sky haven't made any secret of going to Tenerife at any point that I'm aware, and in any case they have to tell the testers where they are, if the testing people wanted to target them, for whatever reason, then the presence of a mid-tier Italian cyclist isn't going to affect that decision. Is it?

You seem to be suggesting that in the clean scenario, it's probable that Sky/Wiggins would be scared off training in a location by the fear of being tested (which they/he wouldn't care about anyway, as they/he have nothing to hide). While on the other hand in the 'dirty' scenario (where the only variable you're manipulating is their own guilt and vulnerability to testing) it's more probable that they wouldn't be scared off training there (even though they now definitely do have something to hide), because their Dr Doping evil genius has warned another of his clients not to go there.

Have I really got that right? Because to be honest neither of those interpretations of the two scenarios makes a great deal of sense on the face of it

The final question is - if you were going to dope would you go to an Alpine resort in Italy/France where doping is illegal by law or a remote island in Spain where its not?

In January? I definitely wouldn't go to an alpine resort in Italy/France. Unless I was going skiing.

I'lll leave that one with you

 

[JimmyFingers]

This is more about your near religious fervour when it comes to Sky. You've got emotionally invested in Wiggins haven't you.

People say that here (and worse) but actually he leaves me fairly indifferent in both riding style and personality, but I have a certain amount of loyalty to him because of nationality but little else. What I do dislike it people destroying what he done practically before he has done it. I just want him to have a fair hearing.

I think the simplest explanation is often the right one, and this from Hog:

Was he "clearing" the decks of the mid-range low ranked riders from to reduce the risk of Tenerife in Ferrari real words "over used" - "burnt" so that higher priced clients - "Sky" could train there?

Shows an increasingly elaborate attempt to explain Sky's presence on Tenerife. Sorry but it sounds far-fetched and a little silly.

This doesn't prove Sky's innocence of course, in any way. That is still up for debate but I do believe this particular accusation lacks substance and is misleading.

And while from a PR point of view you can rank as Sky training in Tenerife as stupid, from a training point of view it makes perfect sense.

 

[ebandit]

softly softly

Really? It is a set of arguments, no more definitive than any other arguments put forward for or against Sky training with Ferrari. But of course because it gives you the result you want it is determined to be 'conclusive'.

This is more about your near religious fervour when it comes to Sky. You've got emotionally invested in Wiggins haven't you.

You need to remember Zhou Enlai.

go for the soft option.........knock the member....who cares if it's true?

as to ferarri..........will current investigations highlight a sky link or is

it nothing more than clinic speculation?

where is the evidence?

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Jimmy - 2 legs good, 4 legs bad eh? Sky good, critics bad. The scenario you choose to be the 'most convincing' is the one that fits most closely to your already pre-conceived ideas. Which is why I said that you ought to remember Zhou

 

[thehog]

In January? I definitely wouldn't go to an alpine resort in Italy/France. Unless I was going skiing.

I'lll leave that one with you

Paris-Nice cancelled in January?

I assume the entire peloton descends on Terieffe because there's no where else to train?

And you need to be doing 5000m climbs in January? at altitude? And they return in yen warmer months because its still snowing everywhere else?

As an aside: Contador was snowed in on his home roads in Jan 2010. Do you know where he went? (A hint: it wasn't Tenerife)

It's fine don't bother responding. I know if I rode clean and my team had a zero tolorence policy on doping I'd choose the most notorious dopers island in the history of the sport. I think that shows excellent judgment.

It would be like a terrorist visiting afghanistan saying it was just for the warm weather! Please. You don't think Yates knew what he was recommending?

But don't worry Ferrari has given the place a clean bill of health!

 

[ebandit]

right..............

Troll bandit, ironic you make a personal attack about personal attacks. As for 'evidence' you wouldn't know evidence if it bit you in the face. Your definition of evidence depends purely upon who is involved. Now run along to the mods and complain about how people are being beastly to you.

Jimmy - 2 legs good, 4 legs bad eh? Sky good, critics bad. The scenario you choose to be the 'most convincing' is the one that fits most closely to your already pre-conceived ideas. Which is why I said that you ought to remember Zhou

right..................................................

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Permission to cross examine?

Just so I understand. A clean zero tolerance Sky even after the raids of October 2010 and unbeknown to the Ferrari warnings and with their Yates.Rogers.Armstrong Tenerife connection decided to travel there? for the first time? Really?

Does that not seem or appear risky? and this debunks the Tenerife myth?

After doping raids on the island you decide its a good place to visit and train?

or an alternate view...

As if you say Ferrari was recorded in 2010 as saying "something" to Begglotli whom was mid-ranked cyclist at best.

Was he "clearing" the decks of the mid-range low ranked riders from to reduce the risk of Tenerife in Ferrari real words "over used" - "burnt" so that higher priced clients - "Sky" could train there?

Possible. Both scenarios are possible with my scenario more probable.

What doesn't makes sense is why would Sky go there clean after all that "activity" you present in your post? Doesn't make sense.


I will add one final comment. You don't go to Tenerife to do nothing but dope. It serves a purposes as part of a year long doping program. Its for testing, dope masking and consultation. Its not a shooting gallery from Sweden.


The final question is - if you were going to dope would you go to an Alpine resort in Italy/France where doping is illegal by law or a remote island in Spain where its not?

I'lll leave that one with you

Hey Hog,
You said you went to Tenerife, right?

Can you confirm that you went there to dope as your post suggests that is the only reason someone would go there.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Paris-Nice cancelled in January?

I assume the entire peloton descends on Terieffe because there's no where else to train?

And you need to be doing 5000m climbs in January? at altitude? And they return in yen warmer months because its still snowing everywhere else?

As an aside: Contador was snowed in on his home roads in Jan 2010. Do you know where he went? (A hint: it wasn't Tenerife)

It's fine don't bother responding. I know if I rode clean and my team had a zero tolorence policy on doping I'd choose the most notorious dopers island in the history of the sport. I think that shows excellent judgment.

It would be like a terrorist visiting afghanistan saying it was just for the warm weather! Please. You don't think Yates knew what he was recommending?

But don't worry Ferrari has given the place a clean bill of health!

So your argument for Tenerife being dodgy is that a known doper avoids going there?

 

[RownhamHill]

Paris-Nice cancelled in January?

I assume the entire peloton descends on Terieffe because there's no where else to train?

And you need to be doing 5000m climbs in January? at altitude? And they return in yen warmer months because its still snowing everywhere else?

As an aside: Contador was snowed in on his home roads in Jan 2010. Do you know where he went? (A hint: it wasn't Tenerife)

It's fine don't bother responding. I know if I rode clean and my team had a zero tolorence policy on doping I'd choose the most notorious dopers island in the history of the sport. I think that shows excellent judgment.

It would be like a terrorist visiting afghanistan saying it was just for the warm weather! Please. You don't think Yates knew what he was recommending?

But don't worry Ferrari has given the place a clean bill of health!

I'm sorry, but I don't understand very much of what you're trying to say here.

In essence, you seem to be suggesting that you think you are right because you think you are right. But apologies if I've (again!) misunderstood something you're trying to say.

 

[andy1234]

Paris-Nice cancelled in January?

Probably would be, if it was actually raced in January.

 

[maltiv]

I've also been cycling in Tenerife a couple of years ago. I wasn't aware that I was involved in doping, but the hog has convinced me, with his 282 posts about how Tenerife equals doping, that I must be a drug cheat as well. How inconvenient.

Call in a press conference, I'll admit to my wrongdoings immediately and my 3rd place from a local race earlier this year will certainly be erased from the history books!

 

[ebandit]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand very much of what you're trying to say here.

In essence, you seem to be suggesting that you think you are right because you think you are right. But apologies if I've (again!) misunderstood something you're trying to say.

that's the response i would have come up with............if only i was brighter

the hog thinks he is right.................because he thinks he is right

while i'm daft enough to ask.............where is the evidence?'

 

[thehog]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand very much of what you're trying to say here.

In essence, you seem to be suggesting that you think you are right because you think you are right. But apologies if I've (again!) misunderstood something you're trying to say.

I don't expect you to understand. That's because you don't want to understand.

I've said countless times that Tenerife in isolation has a bad reputation. But you combine this with everything else we know about Sky then it stinks. Stinks like a turd sitting in the sun for days on end.

If you want to eat that turd then good. I'm not going to stop you. But I warn you it will eventually taste bad. Very bad.

Alas. If you wish to believe that Sky are clean because they've never tested positive etc. thats fine. I'm not here to burst that bubble. If it feels good that the local heroes are clean thats ok as well.

This is not about me. Its about Sky.

I'm providing a counter opinion and if you don't like it thats ok. I'm not trying to change you.

What I do note that there's several poster beating up on the Sky critics but not a lot of posters (well none) who give us the good reasons why Sky are clean. That to me is telling (maybe someone can start a thread - why Sky are clean?).

We just get told "because they are" - I need to check the calendar because it could be 1999 again

 

[JimmyFingers]

Jimmy - 2 legs good, 4 legs bad eh? Sky good, critics bad. The scenario you choose to be the 'most convincing' is the one that fits most closely to your already pre-conceived ideas. Which is why I said that you ought to remember Zhou

And the scenario you choose fits most closely to your ideas. It's called having an opinion, mine differs from yours, it shouldn't be cause for offence.

Note I left out pre-conceived: yours may be but I'm trying to read and learn as much as I can, and draw my conclusions from that. The Ferrari connection via Teide is a dead end in my opinion, and I have already explained why I think that.

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

I don't expect you to understand. That's because you don't want to understand.

I've said countless times that Tenerife in isolation has a bad reputation. But you combine this with everything else we know about Sky then it stinks. Stinks like a turd sitting in the sun for days on end.

If you want to eat that turd then good. I'm not going to stop you. But I warn you it will eventually taste bad. Very bad.

Alas. If you wish to believe that Sky are clean because they've never tested positive etc. thats fine. I'm not here to burst that bubble. If it feels good that the local heroes are clean thats ok as well.

This is not about me. Its about Sky.

I'm providing a counter opinion and if you don't like it thats ok. I'm not trying to change you.

What I do note that there's several poster beating up on the Sky critics but not a lot of posters (well none) who give us the good reasons why Sky are clean. That to me is telling (maybe someone can start a thread - why Sky are clean?).

We just get told "because they are" - I need to check the calendar because it could be 1999 again

It seems to me that there are a few people trying, without much success, to understand what you're trying to say about Sky/Tenerife/Ferrari. Are you saying that Sky are working with Ferrari because they have been training in Tenerife, which was a favourite location of Ferrari?

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

It seems to me that there are a few people trying, without much success, to understand what you're trying to say about Sky/Tenerife/Ferrari. Are you saying that Sky are working with Ferrari because they have been training in Tenerife, which was a favourite location of Ferrari?

I think that's his basic argument. People get confused by the bit about Paris Nice being in april and the bit about how Contador avoids training in Tenerife because he is clean. Maybe if thehog had put it as clearly as you we would all know what he was trying to say.

 

[thehog]

It seems to me that there are a few people trying, without much success, to understand what you're trying to say about Sky/Tenerife/Ferrari. Are you saying that Sky are working with Ferrari because they have been training in Tenerife, which was a favourite location of Ferrari?

Again its not about me.

I've said this several times and provided the links to from Ferrari to Sky.

You can ignore these. I don't mind.

Its ok. Sky are clean - I get it. Knock yourself out!

__

Wiggins traveled to the Spanish island off the west coast of Africa twice this year, each time for two weeks. He just returned one week ago from his last trip. Yates accompanied Great Britain’s Tour hope on the first occasion this year, staying and training in a remote hotel at 2165 meters elevation. It’s the only hotel on Pico de Teide or the Peak of Teide, the highest point in Spain.

“You have altitude, which is supposed to lift your hemoglobin, but it’s more the fact that the hotel is superb, the food is superb, the terrain is the best, the amount of climbing you can do is phenomenal,” said Yates. “There’s no distractions. It’s eat, sleep, ride a bike.”

Wiggins placed fourth at the Tour with Garmin in 2009 and joined Sky over that winter. In 2010, he only managed 24th overall and started to think about what to change. He’d never trained at altitude before and after some research, decided on Tenerife. The results were amazing.

He won the time trial in Bayern Rundfhart and won the overall in the Critérium du Dauphiné in 2011. A crash and broken collarbone at the Tour meant that he had to abandon, but he came back and placed third in the Vuelta a España, took silver in the time trial at the world championships and helped Mark Cavendish to the road race win.

This year Wiggins has been even better, riding as a leader to overall wins at Paris-Nice and the Tour de Romandie.

His helpers – Chris Froome, Richie Porte, Michael Rogers, Kanstantsin Siutsou and Christian Knees – have traveled with him and benefited. Rogers won the Bayern Rundfhart overall a week ago, Porte won the Volta ao Algarve in February and Froome was second in the Vuelta last year.

“The training is harder than the racing,” Yates said. “When push comes to shove in a race, on the top of [Col de] Joux Plane, it’s going to be hard, but 99 percent of time the training is harder than the racing.”

Wiggins is not the only rider to benefit from altitude training. Several teams travel to Tenerife, while others train at Mount Etna and the Stelvio Pass in Italy. Alejandro Valverde and Movistar trained in Spain’s Sierra Nevada last month and this week, Garmin-Barracuda’s Christian Vande Velde is training in Colorado.

“I guess Lance [Armstrong] was the pioneer in training to race,” said Yates, who raced with Armstrong. “In a grand tour environment, you can train to be good. It’s not the same as the classics, where you have to be in the mix, you have to know the cobbles. In an event like this [Dauphiné] or a grand tour, if you’re going for GC, it’s all about being able to climb, being rested, being trained up and ready. That environment is perfect for that.”

He's right - those results are amazing!

 

[D-Queued]

...

...“I guess Lance [Armstrong] was the pioneer in training to race,” said Yates...

He's right - those results are amazing!

Lance was the pioneer of what?

Event specialization? Periodization? Sport specific training?

OMG

Dave.

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

Again its not about me.

I've said this several times and provided the links to from Ferrari to Sky.

You can ignore these. I don't mind.

Its ok. Sky are clean - I get it. Knock yourself out!

__




He's right - those results are amazing!

I've never said it's about you, just as I've never said Sky are clean. All I'm trying to do is to understand your reasoning. With respect to your links are you talking about this: -

"Ferrari (master of no positives & drugs)
|
Rogers/Yates/Lance love (mentoring proven)
|
Tenerife
|
Inhumane power levels for weight ratio (A Ferrari speciality)
|
Wiggins."

If it is then there is the problem of Ferrari's advice in 2010 about Tenerife, as well as the problem of other cogent explinations for using Tenerife. Therefore, I cannot see how you can say Sky are using Ferrari 100%.

It would save a lot of time and effort if you actually said what evidence you have about Sky and Ferrari. If the above is all you've got then we'll just have to agree to disagree

 

[thehog]

we'll just have to agree to disagree

i agree....

 

[thehog]

Lance was the pioneer of what?

Event specialization? Periodization? Sport specific training?

OMG

Dave.

My favourite. The "training" is harder than the racing!

The Tour was a push over compared to hanging out in Tenerife.

Froome was certainly evidence that the Tour was much easier than training!

“The training is harder than the racing,” Yates said. “When push comes to shove in a race, on the top of [Col de] Joux Plane, it’s going to be hard, but 99 percent of time the training is harder than the racing.”