Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Tinman]

took what, 15 years for USPS doping to come out. And if Armstrong never came back, it would only have been knowledge for a very few like the 12 on the clinic.

I think the times have changed. Yes 12 clinic die-hards 15 years ago, but many dozens, hundreds and thousands reading, spreading the message, etc as of late. Because of people taking the initiative, not longer relying on traditional media, but getting closer to the truth and/or rumor mill themselves, via social media.

Case in point, the 30 or so de-identified people in USADA affidavits. Deciphered here in 2 days flat. Resulting in various riders/managers retiring early. Likewise Darrel's comments, accessible and read by far more people than ever before.

It's very different now, and traditional media as well as team managers and sports administrators are going to have to deal with accountability in ways very different than before. The Team Sky doping discussion is again a classic example. The PR spin of the past doesn't work any longer. Nor do "feel good" messages by high profile riders like Cadel. People are going to expect a closer true story, and high profile sports people, as well as business people, politicians, etc, are going to have to be more accountable. Or the public pressure will force them out. This is only the early days of social media, but you can see how quickly and powerfully it's happening in cycling.

 

[bobbins]

Erm, would it not be a bigger issue for Australia Cycling, which is already undergoing some kind of review?

I know there are Aussies involved in BC abd Sky, but AFAIK Shane Sutton remained in the UK after his racing career, going on to a role with Welsh Cycling, and has not been involved with Vinnicombe.

Has anyone "joined the dots" yet?

It doesn't involve an Aussie and is a bigger deal for BC than CA. Although by the sounds of it CA have plenty of skeletons.

 

[Tinman]

But that's the trouble with "whispering", its not evidence.

Reliable eye witness accounts are evidence. We've done this to death, as has Travis Tygart.

Darrel's earlier accounts should be followed through/investigated and concluded publicly by the BC authorities. They are not "whispers". Nor is he just "anyone with a hunch", he's an untainted ex pro with impressive palmares and (on the surface at least) no axe to grind, other than striving for a clean sport.

 

[del1962]

Martin Vinnicombe has spoken to the Aus media. From what I understand he has stories that could sink BC out of sight. Landis scale stories. Weather he'll share them all is a different matter but he seems like another with nothing to lose.

It doesn't involve an Aussie and is a bigger deal for BC than CA. Although by the sounds of it CA have plenty of skeletons.

Austalian guy gets dope from Aussie Cycling, a bigger issue for BC than AC, you are not making any sense.

 

[Tinman]

Erm, would it not be a bigger issue for Australia Cycling, which is already undergoing some kind of review?

I know there are Aussies involved in BC abd Sky, but AFAIK Shane Sutton remained in the UK after his racing career, going on to a role with Welsh Cycling, and has not been involved with Vinnicombe.

Has anyone "joined the dots" yet?

Depends what you mean by joined the dots.

See the CN thread. There is speculation there that the high profile person who assisted Vinnicombe with his doping is Phil Bates, his one time manager, event organizer and senior exec member of NSW cycling, and long time president of St George cycling club, one of the largest and most successful Australian cycling clubs, whose members have included the 3 Suttons (Shane, Gary, Chris), as well as Matt White and Vinnicombe. Phil is the brother in law of Shane and Gary, sits on the UCI disciplinary committee and has been highly critical of Tygart and USADA regarding the LA case.

So here we have an extended family with ties to UCI, pivotal part of Team Sky, with one person highly critical in public of the largest anti-doping conspiracy investigation ever done, who is speculated to have assisted one of his riders doping, and who presides over a club with several high profile past doping members. With relationships and connections extending closely into Team Sky (via Shane and Chris Sutton).

I would say so far an interesting picture developing in a puzzle for which some pieces still need to fall into place before we have real clarity what this is all about. And people like Vinnicombe and Darrel and others who are and can provide those pieces....

 

[bobbins]

Austalian guy gets dope from Aussie Cycling, a bigger issue for BC than AC, you are not making any sense.

I don't think I said that an Aussie guy got dope from Aussie cycling, apologies if you thought I did. He's been around for long enough to know plenty of what happened in the late 80s which didn't necessarily involve other Aus athletes.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Depends what you mean by joined the dots.

See the CN thread. There is speculation there that the high profile person who assisted Vinnicombe with his doping is Phil Bates, his one time manager, event organizer and senior exec member of NSW cycling, and long time president of St George cycling club, one of the largest and most successful Australian cycling clubs, whose members have included the 3 Suttons (Shane, Gary, Chris), as well as Matt White and Vinnicombe. Phil is the brother in law of Shane and Gary, sits on the UCI disciplinary committee and has been highly critical of Tygart and USADA regarding the LA case.

So here we have an extended family with ties to UCI, pivotal part of Team Sky, with one person highly critical in public of the largest anti-doping conspiracy investigation ever done, who is speculated to have assisted one of his riders doping, and who presides over a club with several high profile past doping members. With relationships and connections extending closely into Team Sky (via Shane and Chris Sutton).

I would say so far an interesting picture developing in a puzzle for which some pieces still need to fall into place before we have real clarity what this is all about. And people like Vinnicombe and Darrel and others who are and can provide those pieces....

Isn't NSW where Brad McGee is headed?

 

[andy1234]

Reliable eye witness accounts are evidence. We've done this to death, as has Travis Tygart.

Darrel's earlier accounts should be followed through/investigated and concluded publicly by the BC authorities. They are not "whispers". Nor is he just "anyone with a hunch", he's an untainted ex pro with impressive palmares and (on the surface at least) no axe to grind, other than striving for a clean sport.

You don't know Darryl very well do you?

Darryl has a looooong history of issues with BC, pre-dating any of the current staff, or current concerns.

He also has no more insight into current practices than most others in the clinic.

 

[bobbins]

You don't know Darryl very well do you?

Darryl has a looooong history of issues with BC, pre-dating any of the current staff, or current concerns.

He also has no more insight into current practices than most others in the clinic.

And that's the problem. Is it a genuine account or is it someone with a long history jumping onto the bandwagon for attention?

I remember when Landis sent his email during the Tour of California and the Eurosport commentator saying he must be deranged, Millar saying Gaument was mad, any truth in Daryls stories may be easily dismissed.

 

[Tinman]

You don't know Darryl very well do you?

Darryl has a looooong history of issues with BC, pre-dating any of the current staff, or current concerns.

He also has no more insight of current practices than anyone else here.

Don't know Darryl other than from what he posted here some months' ago. And reading your post here not sure if you know what that was about - if so suggest you read up on this. And if you have 'relevant' background on Darryl then suggest you post it here.

And remember our Clinic heroes here. People like Kimmage, Walsh, Tygart, and several ex pro riders, all of whom have fought the established dirty side of cycling in the past, were rubbished widely at the time, but inevitably found to be spot on in their early accounts. So yes if someone wants to 'air' some history here or elsewhere we are interested. And remember we are not very tolerant of rabid fanboys either (in the past Lance, more recently Sky).

 

[Avoriaz]

Depends what you mean by joined the dots.

See the CN thread. There is speculation there that the high profile person who assisted Vinnicombe with his doping is Phil Bates, his one time manager, event organizer and senior exec member of NSW cycling, and long time president of St George cycling club, one of the largest and most successful Australian cycling clubs, whose members have included the 3 Suttons (Shane, Gary, Chris), as well as Matt White and Vinnicombe. Phil is the brother in law of Shane and Gary, sits on the UCI disciplinary committee and has been highly critical of Tygart and USADA regarding the LA case.

So here we have an extended family with ties to UCI, pivotal part of Team Sky, with one person highly critical in public of the largest anti-doping conspiracy investigation ever done, who is speculated to have assisted one of his riders doping, and who presides over a club with several high profile past doping members. With relationships and connections extending closely into Team Sky (via Shane and Chris Sutton).

I would say so far an interesting picture developing in a puzzle for which some pieces still need to fall into place before we have real clarity what this is all about. And people like Vinnicombe and Darrel and others who are and can provide those pieces....

Is Kevin Bacon involved in this somewhere too?

If you look hard enough you can find patterns in any sets of data. That doesn't mean there is a pattern.

For example, Darryl Webster rode for a Spanish professional team. Spain is a hotbed of doping (see threads on Tenerife, Majorca, Nadal, Fuentes). There is a pattern.

But, of course, there isn't a pattern. They are merely two pieces of information. So, as far as the above is concerned it isn't a case of "some pieces need to fall into place", but a case of all pieces need to fall into place. At the moment all you have is that these guys have been involved in what is possibly (I don't know this btw) Australia's biggest cycling team as riders and that is coincidence or a home for their best riders from the area. Hardly comparable to the Illuminati of Bavaria

 

[del1962]

I don't think I said that an Aussie guy got dope from Aussie cycling, apologies if you thought I did. He's been around for long enough to know plenty of what happened in the late 80s which didn't necessarily involve other Aus athletes.

I was talking about what Vinnicombe had actually said, rather than speculation of what he might say.

 

[bobbins]

I was talking about what Vinnicombe had actually said, rather than speculation of what he might say.

I see, sorry. I was talking about what he has said in the past. If it comes out it is a bigger deal for BC than for CA.

 

[Tinman]

Is Kevin Bacon involved in this somewhere too?

If you look hard enough you can find patterns in any sets of data. That doesn't mean there is a pattern.

For example, Darryl Webster rode for a Spanish professional team. Spain is a hotbed of doping (see threads on Tenerife, Majorca, Nadal, Fuentes). There is a pattern.

But, of course, there isn't a pattern. They are merely two pieces of information. So, as far as the above is concerned it isn't a case of "some pieces need to fall into place", but a case of all pieces need to fall into place. At the moment all you have is that these guys have been involved in what is possibly (I don't know this btw) Australia's biggest cycling team as riders and that is coincidence or a home for their best riders from the area. Hardly comparable to the Illuminati of Bavaria

There is some skill required joining the right dots . Joking aside, some people are consistently good at picking 'trends' or 'insights' from data that to others looks all over the place. Don't dismiss this ability, it's not a hard science.

I agree with your Canary island point. For me it's widely overplayed, you haven't seen me post in those threads as I find it way too speculative. But when it comes to people relationships and links to doping I find those require deeper analysis and questioning. And more often than not when it smells fishy it's rotten...

 

[ebandit]

ferrari vrooom

Mick Rogers has done well. He's hanging on by the skim of his teeth.

That Sky/Ferrari connection not looking so strange now...

reading this i expected some 'breaking news'

a connection would not be so strange............but is it true?

i recall your claim of proof of link between wiggo and ferrari but despite

asking many times no info to support claim was offered

rather like claim of video proof of sky doping.............prime bs

 

[coinneach]

Reliable eye witness accounts are evidence. We've done this to death, as has Travis Tygart. Agreed, where people are willing to make statements

Darrel's earlier accounts should be followed through/investigated and concluded publicly by the BC authorities. agreedThey are not "whispers".His words, not mine Nor is he just "anyone with a hunch"not my words either, he's an untainted ex pro with impressive palmares and (on the surface at least) no axe to grind, would be the exception to get to that stage without some bad experiences other than striving for a clean sport.

I have no idea what "whispers" Darryl has heard: maybe the doping hotline that everyone on the clinic was so keen to disparage would be a place they could be shared: after all, there may be other Darryls who could co-oroborate some of it.

Personally, if one of the Suttons was involved with someone a bit dodgy 20+ years ago, its not of major significance now (other than possibly for PR purposes).
Is there anyone in pro-cycling 50+ who HASN'T been involved with someone dodgy at some stage?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Seems a giant leap of logic even by clinic standards to link what Vinnicombe has said, given we don't even know everything he has said, to Sky.

On a side note, it's striking that the majority of suspicions of taint for Sky comes from the Australians involved in the set up there

 

[simo1733]

I have no idea what "whispers" Darryl has heard: maybe the doping hotline that everyone on the clinic was so keen to disparage would be a place they could be shared: after all, there may be other Darryls who could co-oroborate some of it.

Personally, if one of the Suttons was involved with someone a bit dodgy 20+ years ago, its not of major significance now (other than possibly for PR purposes).
Is there anyone in pro-cycling 50+ who HASN'T been involved with someone dodgy at some stage?

I think UKADA already has a hotline.

 

[Tinman]

Personally, if one of the Suttons was involved with someone a bit dodgy 20+ years ago, its not of major significance now (other than possibly for PR purposes).
Is there anyone in pro-cycling 50+ who HASN'T been involved with someone dodgy at some stage?

You seem to know something that you are not wanting to share? Something involving one of the Sutton's 20+ years ago?

Problem is that it's those exact Suttons who are in critical cycling admin roles right now. Shane as team Sky/BC head coach, with all the controversy they are going through. Gary as NSW head coach with son Chris at team Sky. Phil Bates as brother in law on UCI disciplinary committee lambasting the USADA enquiry (an entire case built on eye witness statements by the way...).

So it's not as simple as you make it out to be. I have no issue with people having done dodgy stuff or knowing of past dodgy stuff who are now clean and have disclosed their past and dealt with it. I think the recent ASADA approach to disclosure is a pretty good initiative. I think BC should follow suit similarly but 'understand' with the London Olympics and recent great successes this is considered a pretty risky approach. But where does that leave BC/Team Sky as well as the Sutton clan and 'clean cycling'? Are they for or against? We expect leaders to lead from the front. The time of sitting on the fence with regard to doping is gone. It's about trust and credibility and that requires taking a stance. Not taking that stance is just more of the same, ie Omerta continuing.

So I have major issue with those in a 'cycling administration leadership' category who are not disclosing what happened in the past and coming out strongly that they want to be part of the solution and the future. Which has to be unequivocally against doping. Whatever happened in the past. We can forgive, particularly of those who have and are contributing immensely to cycling, as are the Sutton's and Phil Bates. But with regard to doping they have to lead from the front, now.

 

[Tinman]

Seems a giant leap of logic even by clinic standards to link what Vinnicombe has said, given we don't even know everything he has said, to Sky.

On a side note, it's striking that the majority of suspicions of taint for Sky comes from the Australians involved in the set up there

Jimmy, here we go again. This is not about (your) Sky, or (our) Australian coaches. It's about clean cycling. And those in leadership positions leading the sport there. Rather than continuing the status quo of "mum's the word" on doping.

And stuff that has happened in the past that leaves lots of questions that those that can provide solid answers to are not providing.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Jimmy, here we go again. This is not about (your) Sky, or (our) Australian coaches. It's about clean cycling. And those in leadership positions leading the sport there. Rather than continuing the status quo of "mum's the word" on doping.

And stuff that has happened in the past that leaves lots of questions that those that can provide solid answers to are not providing.

I'm still confused with Vinnicombe saying 'someone' helped him take a PEd twenty years ago in Australia has to do with Sky, and why it is being discussed on this thread

 

[martinvickers]

I'm still confused with Vinnicombe saying 'someone' helped him take a PEd twenty years ago in Australia has to do with Sky, and why it is being discussed on this thread

It seems pretty obvious to me; someone or ones wanted to join the dots from Vnnicombe to Shane Sutton. 'Aussie coach currently in high position' (There were some suggestions of sutton involvement with Daryll too if memory serves).

The desire to 'kill' Sky is very high for reasons I'm not entirely sure about.

Problem was, there was nothing like enough info from Vinnicombe to do the link, and the more that string was pulled, the more it pointed to coaches currently in Australia. and that simply didn't suit the agenda, did it?

Ah well, the guys have to have their fun...

 

[ebandit]

learn to read

took what, 15 years for USPS doping to come out. And if Armstrong never came back, it would only have been knowledge for a very few like the 12 on the clinic.

oh..........the immortal 'clinic 12'.............were those the only ones whom
could read david walsh paul kimmage l'equipe etc?

i'm still waiting to hear of similar revelations for team sky

 

[thehog]

There’s not a shred of physical evidence. Until then it’s just hearsay. Show me a positive test then we’re talking but until then it’s just bitterness and jealously.

It’s just haters who never ridden a bike or done anything with their lives. Look at all the good things Sky have done. For one I wouldn’t be riding a bike if it wasn’t for them.

 

[ebandit]

good?

There’s not a shred of physical evidence. Until then it’s just hearsay. Show me a positive test then we’re talking but until then it’s just bitterness and jealously.

It’s just haters who never ridden a bike or done anything with their lives. Look at all the good things Sky have done. For one I wouldn’t be riding a bike if it wasn’t for them.

what good? team sky are not in the dogooding business but to win races

if they cheat they must be 'popped'

i called bs to your claims and you answer with a riddle