Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[coinneach]

Couple of quick comments:

Sky has had something like 4 doctors on staff when they were looking for another one. Brailsford said they could not find a suitable doctor. Suitable for what? Saddlesore treatment? Then they ended up with Leinders...

If there is doping at Sky, and I firmly believe there was in 2012, it is likely to be a individually based program with as few as possible staff in the know, a doctor (for bag supervision, etc), a DS (for logistics eg motoman), and a coach (for performance management). Leinders, Yates and Sutton. More than those are not required and don't need to know, and that includes Brailsford who can sit behind his PC and direct the clean PR spin. The riders most likely were Rogers, Froome and Wiggins, and it would be better if they did not have confirmation verbally or visually of each others' doping. Unspoken rules only. Saves hassles later.

I don't normally agree with Tinman and I don't this time either BUT at least he has come out with a more believable scenario than "whole team doping" programme which wouldn't work for long because someone would fail a test or start talking.

The trouble with Tinman's senario is, what about the other Sky riders? For me, EBH + Richie P were just as impressive this year as Rogers, and Svitsov was supposted to be in the form of his life before he broke his collarbone, Stanners spent more time at the front of the peteton all season than anyone else and so it goes on. Sky's results up to the Olympics were consistently good: I can't remember even USPS ever having as good a season, apart from the Tour.

And including Sutton in the scheme doesn't make it any more believable either. That would tie in British track cycling and there are too many people involved with too much to loose that I just can't buy it.

 

[SundayRider]

Hi all new member here, long time lurker.
Someone may have posted this link before but anywayhttp://www.bikeraceinfo.com/tdf/tdfstats.html

IMO the winners avg speeds simply aren't coming down enough (or at all) to suggest clean winners of the tour - given the effects that PED have.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Hi all new member here, long time lurker.
Someone may have posted this link before but anywayhttp://www.bikeraceinfo.com/tdf/tdfstats.html

IMO the winners avg speeds simply aren't coming down enough (or at all) to suggest clean winners of the tour - given the effects that PED have.

There are too many variables to look at the Tour as a whole and compare the average speed. Otherwise, in 81/82 riders must have been on a wonder drug prior to previous years to account for the sudden ramp up in speed.

btw Hello and welcome.

 

[SundayRider]

I agree its avg speed isn't everything but over a long period it is useful, especially seen as the Tour follows a similar format each year. The route in 2000 was actually quite similar to this year and Wiggins avg was actually faster than Armstrong's that year.

 

[Netserk]

I would like to see how many watts Wiggo is pushing in the TTs compared to Armstrong.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

I agree its avg speed isn't everything but over a long period it is useful, especially seen as the Tour follows a similar format each year. The route in 2000 was actually quite similar to this year and Wiggins avg was actually faster than Armstrong's that year.

And that proves to me that it is not a reliable indicator. Just watch Pantani and Armstrong up Ventoux. I am by no means saying 2012 was clean just that I don't think comparing average speeds for the Tour is particulary helpful.

 

[SundayRider]

I would like to see how many watts Wiggo is pushing in the TTs compared to Armstrong.

Depends what sources you read but I have seen 450-470 mentioned for BOTH riders.

 

[SundayRider]

And that proves to me that it is not a reliable indicator. Just watch Pantani and Armstrong up Ventoux. I am by no means saying 2012 was clean just that I don't think comparing average speeds for the Tour is particulary helpful.

Yes individual sections of the race vary massively I agree. However surely over a 3 week race (and the doping techniques used offer such a big advantage) a squeaky clean winner would always be noticeably slower than a drug assisted winner.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Yes individual sections of the race vary massively I agree. However surely over a 3 week race (and the doping techniques used offer such a big advantage) a squeaky clean winner would always be noticeably slower than a drug assisted winner.

So assuming that in 1981 they were cleaner (no EPO) then during much of the Indurain era they were actually pretty clean?

 

[SundayRider]

So assuming that in 1981 they were cleaner (no EPO) then during much of the Indurain era they were actually pretty clean?

I wasn't making the point that average always indicates doping or not of course there will be conflicting statistics. Who was it that said "if the fans want the Tour to be at 40kmph then the riders need to 'prepare'." Or something along those lines anyway!

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

Hi all new member here, long time lurker.
Someone may have posted this link before but anywayhttp://www.bikeraceinfo.com/tdf/tdfstats.html

IMO the winners avg speeds simply aren't coming down enough (or at all) to suggest clean winners of the tour - given the effects that PED have.

Statistically there are too many variables to draw any major conclusions from the average speeds and you can pick out little anomolies all over the place. For instance the speed in 2012 was broadly similar to 1992, a period of twenty years. However 1992 was 4km faster than 1972.

You can look at this in two ways. Either they are on the same drugs as 1992 or that naturally given improvements in equipment, tactics, diet etc there should be a small incremental increase every year and there was a huge jump in 1992 from 1972 due to EPO and since there hasn't been any noticable increase in speed since 1992 they are not taking PEDs.

Depends on your point of view.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

I wasn't making the point that average always indicates doping or not of course there will be conflicting statistics. Who was it that said "if the fans want the Tour to be at 40kmph then the riders need to 'prepare'." Or something along those lines anyway!

I don't know? Brailsford said “If you want spectacular, jumping all over the place, at crazy speeds, let them dope."

Not at all what you are implying.

 

[JimmyFingers]

I don't know? Brailsford said “If you want spectacular, jumping all over the place, at crazy speeds, let them dope."

Not at all what you are implying.

Anquetil said something along those lines in the early days of drug testing, mid-sixties? Something like 'you want us to ride along at 15kph without drugs, or be entertained with us riding at 25kph with'

Its a story old as time

 

[Tom375]

I wasn't making the point that average always indicates doping or not of course there will be conflicting statistics. Who was it that said "if the fans want the Tour to be at 40kmph then the riders need to 'prepare'." Or something along those lines anyway!

I'm sure Hein is quoted somewhere as saying something along these lines in terms of best "entertainment" for "fans"

 

[SundayRider]

I'm sure Hein is quoted somewhere as saying something along these lines in terms of best "entertainment" for "fans"

Yes, I think that was the one I was thinking of.

 

[Weapons of @ss Destruction]

I shudder to think of Froome's response to this over the next 7 months, in the context of his "program";

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins-wants-to-go-for-tour-de-france-title-again

 

[Netserk]

I shudder to think of Froome's response to this over the next 7 months, in the context of his "program";

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins-wants-to-go-for-tour-de-france-title-again

Froome is going to feel the same team support as Alberto in '09, and totally crush his own team (riding away from them in the TTT), only to have non on the team to fetch bottles for him, so Sky essentially is an 8 man team from the start, and Froome goes Gadret style!

 

[Weapons of @ss Destruction]

Gadret style!

Is that anything like Gangnam style?

 

[Netserk]

Is that anything like Gangnam style?

More like one man team

 

[thehog]

More like one man team

Froome is going to have his bloodbag tipped down the sink before the final TT.

Wiggins is going to cut off his supply of AICAR. JB won't allow him stepping out.

Froome is dammed if he does, dammed he doesn't.

Froome-dawg needs to save some gear for his own special tactical supply.

 

[Weapons of @ss Destruction]

Froome-dawg needs to save some gear for his own special tactical supply.

Maybe he can hire the unemployed Cobra at bargain basement rates as a personal consultant to design a training plan for his 2013 season? (and perhaps also to babysit the temp on Froome's fridge to make sure his dinners are kept properly chilled)

 

[Netserk]

Froome is going to have his bloodbag tipped down the sink before the final TT.

Wiggins is going to cut off his supply of AICAR. JB won't allow him stepping out.

Froome is dammed if he does, dammed he doesn't.

Froome-dawg needs to save some gear for his own special tactical supply.

Indeed, but without supervision from the team, he might go full *** on the gear and solo away from the others in the TTT!

 

[Netserk]

*Getting in position for the snipe*

(10.000 so close!)

 

[thehog]

Indeed, but without supervision from the team, he might go full *** on the gear and solo away from the others in the TTT!

Indeed he will. The TTT will be a drag race. Wiggins and Froome solo'ing away from the rest of the team.

I'm looking forward to Froome-dawg trying to match Contador with 'jumping all over the place'.

 

[coinneach]

You could also look at Wiggins statement about the tour as consistent with what he's said before. Giro #1 priority, Tour = like to defend title but willing to back up Froome. This also gives Sky some back up to their team in case...

In 2011, they had no back up when Wiggins crashed
In 12 they had Cavendish, (whilst BMC had no back up plan if Evans didn't perform)
In 13 looks like they'll have Froome with Wiggins backing up.
They will need to sort out priorities well before the race though, and I doubt if it'll go without a hitch; especially seeing how they worked together at the Vuelta in 11 and tour in 12.
I kinda feel a bit sorry for Froome after what he's done for Wiggins...I wonder if there's more to it than this?

Like just about everything that happens with Sky, you can read it both ways!