Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Wallace and Gromit]

Voted most exciting race for 2012, with 33% of the vote. I think last year the Tour won with 64% of the vote. But hey, a win is a win, right?

I'm not sure of the relevance of this comment. Sky were there to win the Tour, not provide excitement.

I don't think even the most ardent Sky fan would claim this year's Tour was won excitingly, whereas even Evans' biggest detractor would happily admit that the stages where Schleck and Berto attacked from a long way out were very exciting.

The whole point of this thread is whether or not Sky were winning clean this year.

 

[Avoriaz]

Not evidence or intuition. But I saw what I saw in the days of USPS domination and I saw what I saw this year. And I have to tell you I was F***** depressed to the extent that I was almost giving up on this sport. I really thought that those days had gone.

The problem here is not a team riding on the front and dominating, but that USPS did it through illegal performance enhancing drugs. If you look back through the history of the sport - and it IS a team sport - then the strongest teams have often done this to win races. From Rik Van Looy's Red guard (flat and classics), the Panasonic wall in the classics etc right the way through. Some teams aren't strong enough to manage it (ADR were particularly poor ).

As a tactic it may be boring, but if it works it works. If it is done illegally a la USPS it is a different matter. That one team sets the pace, with reasonable climbers, means it has a game plan but does not absolutely indicate doping

 

[JimmyFingers]

I think we can both agree on one thing, though. If Sky truly are a clean team, they have done a completely fricking horrible job of showcasing that. So far their policy of publicising clean cycling has consisted of the following plan:
1) win races
2) ?
3) say it was clean

So a million miles from all the other teams...

 

[Froome19]

So a million miles from all the other teams...

Precisely what I thought when I saw that post.
That post could have fit into nearly any other team just as well.
What makes Sky stand out and what is the reason for all these haters is their dominance. It could be an indication of doping but only could be considered proof in alignment with other factors and in that, all teams actually have the same problem.

A similar example is with Katusha who have had their WT licence withheld due to their ethical aspects. What makes it such a farce is that Katusha seem to only be a scapegoat considering that their ethical aspects are certainly not much worse than teams like Astana or Lampre.

 

[The Hitch]

So a million miles from all the other teams...

Who said the other teams are clean. I certainly wouldn't accept anyone claiming euskaltel or lotto or lampre or bmc ( just random examples) are new breed anti.dopers any more than i accept sky when they claim that.

 

[blackcat]

^ fool me once...

 

[cineteq]

A similar example is with Katusha who have had their WT licence withheld due to their ethical aspects. What makes it such a farce is that Katusha seem to only be a scapegoat considering that their ethical aspects are certainly not much worse than teams like Astana or Lampre.

Double standards. Why not pick RSNT? Also it's ok for KAT to apply to a pro conti license, but not a WT's, what kind of message the UCI is sending here?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Who said the other teams are clean. I certainly wouldn't accept anyone claiming euskaltel or lotto or lampre or bmc ( just random examples) are new breed anti.dopers any more than i accept sky when they claim that.

I'm not saying they are but they will all certainly claim to be clean

 

[martinvickers]

Hahha! It's a sad day when the Spanish start calling you 'not normal'!

not so much sad, more ironical...

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Double standards. Why not pick RSNT? Also it's ok for KAT to apply to a pro conti license, but not a WT's, what kind of message the UCI is sending here?

We (the UCI) still hold the balance of power. Do NOT f--k with us.

 

[martinvickers]

Not evidence or intuition. But I saw what I saw in the days of USPS domination and I saw what I saw this year. And I have to tell you I was F***** depressed to the extent that I was almost giving up on this sport. I really thought that those days had gone.

I find italian catenaccio soul destroying. It's not in itself evidence of doping

I find All Black and Springbok 'power' rugby tedious.

Now I also happen to think that the Boks dope. Jury's out on England and AB.

And while I accept that doping would particularly help their 'style' - i don't think the style is inherently evidence of the doping - it's tactical, cultural and boring as hell - leaving aside my beloved ireland, I'll take welsh and french style any day.

But power rugby works, and it will be used, doping or not.

Sometime the conversations around USPS remind me of those around east german swimmers and athletes in the seventies and eighties. The East germans were doped up to their eyeballs - they actually managed to more or less turn one woman into a man completely (he's now married to another ex doping female!). The GDR was in many ways the scum of the earth. They made USPS look like boy scouts.

But they also did a pile of legit sports science - they led the world in it. Indeed much of what passes today in cycling and rowing and triathlon as cutting edge legit sports science, the GDR were doing decades ago.

USPS were doped to the eyeballs, a pack of cheating ****s lead by a functioning sociopath who all but killed a sport I love. But not EVERYTHING they did was non-legit - they also did legit stuff that was very effective - in effect, anything, legit or otherwise to get an edge.

And the 'train' tectic, boring as it is for romantics, is just legit. It just works. It worked before EPO. It worked before blood doping. EPO makes it work much better, USPS proved that - but that doesn't remove the effectiveness of a 'train' as a general tactic. PArticularly against a weakish peleton- and the 2012 Tour peleton was decidedly weak.

Think of all the dopers in LA's day. Many of them were on exactly the same kinds of drugs and techniques. Yet you couldn't possibly suggest Pantani used a train. He did all the "bouncing around, crazy attacking". Much more fun to watch. And he won far less than LA.

I loathe USPS, what it stood for. I hope Bruyneel rots in hell. and if Sky, for example are doping, I hope Brailsford joins him.

But USPS are in danger of becoming the 'Godwin's Law' of the Clinic. That everything they did is inherently evidence of doping. "they use a train tactic"=doping, so sky must dope. "They're anglo's"=doping, so sky must dope.

And that's just silly, after a while.

 

[The Hitch]

Precisely what I thought when I saw that post.
That post could have fit into nearly any other team just as well.
What makes Sky stand out and what is the reason for all these haters is their dominance. It could be an indication of doping but only could be considered proof in alignment with other factors and in that, all teams actually have the same problem.

A similar example is with Katusha who have had their WT licence withheld due to their ethical aspects. What makes it such a farce is that Katusha seem to only be a scapegoat considering that their ethical aspects are certainly not much worse than teams like Astana or Lampre.

There are 2 issues here.


1 is.are sky and all other.teams.clean or doping. I can only ultimately speak for myself but there doesn't seem to me to.be too big a faction of people.who think sky are the only team doping or who treat other teams with less suspicion than sky.


So asking why people attack sky specifically is a mute point because they aren't being treated differently at all.

The second issue is how the anti doping proclamations of sky and other teams are treated. Here there is a difference because sky and their fans themselves behave differently.
All teams claim to.be clean for obvious reasons, others try harder to portray themselves as such, but sky alone spread as proven fact, not just that the entire team is 100% clean but that they are leading the anti doping movement.

Sky portray themselves not just as a clean team but essentially the team that has defeated doping in cycling.

Their allies in the 4th estate take it to even.more.extreme levels. Wiggo biographer 1 Bill f from the guardian said the fact that 2 brits are now.leading the tour was proof that doping finally has been defeated. Wiggo biographer number 2 gallackar or whatever from the telegraph says that not only that wiggins and froome are clean but presents.some racial supremacy theory that brits are by the very nature morally and physically superior to other counties and were hence destined to dominate the sport once doping was.eliminated.

The claims sky and their fans make are pretty major. And require a little.more.proof than has been offered.

Why is ls challenging sky and their lack of evidence? Why isn't he doing the same for lampre ? Because lampre don't make these fantastic.claims.about having proven that sport can be clean.

And it is rich to.expect that people who truly are anti doping will just lie down when any team comes.in, tells everyone not.to.worry " we have your backs.now" " well take.it.from here" but offers the bare minimum in.actual.evidence and actually continues.to.back.many of the old.regime - mcquaid, lance etc.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I've only had a brief look, but I am pretty confident USPS only won the Tour regularly. If Sky repeat 2012, they are going to make USPS look like girl guides.

 

[martinvickers]

There are 2 issues here.


1 is.are sky and all other.teams.clean or doping. I can only ultimately speak for myself but there doesn't seem to me to.be too big a faction of people.who think sky are the only team doping or who treat other teams with less suspicion than sky.


So asking why people attack sky specifically is a mute point because they aren't being treated differently at all.

10,000 Clinic posts say something different.

The second issue is how the anti doping proclamations of sky and other teams are treated. Here there is a difference because sky and their fans themselves behave differently.
All teams claim to.be clean for obvious reasons, others try harder to portray themselves as such, but sky alone spread as proven fact, not just that the entire team is 100% clean but that they are leading the anti doping movement.

Em, Garmin, anyone? Garmin make far more PR of their anti-doping efforts. Which given the set up of the team is ientirely understandable. Sky are no different in terms of what they claim than say GreenEdge. Where are the 10,000 posts on GreenEdge?

Sky portray themselves not just as a clean team but essentially the team that has defeated doping in cycling.

Rather hyperbolic. Source?

Their allies in the 4th estate take it to even.more.extreme levels. Wiggo biographer 1 Bill f from the guardian said the fact that 2 brits are now.leading the tour was proof that doping finally has been defeated. Wiggo biographer number 2 gallackar or whatever from the telegraph says that not only that wiggins and froome are clean but presents.some racial supremacy theory that brits are by the very nature morally and physically superior to other counties and were hence destined to dominate the sport once doping was.eliminated.

Here we go with the reverse racism bullsh!t again. tedious, hyperbolic, and frankly disingenuious.

Why is ls challenging sky and their lack of evidence? Why isn't he doing the same for lampre ? Because lampre don't make these fantastic.claims.about having proven that sport can be clean.

And it is rich to.expect that people who truly are anti doping will just lie down when any team comes.in, tells everyone not.to.worry " we have your backs.now" " well take.it.from here" but offers the bare minimum in.actual.evidence and actually continues.to.back.many of the old.regime - mcquaid, lance etc.

Where have Sky told anybody "we'll take it from here"?

Honestly, Sky really do enough stupid bullsh!t for real. You don't have to make up and exaggerate crap too.

 

[ebandit]

?

Sky portray themselves not just as a clean team but essentially the team that has defeated doping in cycling.

The claims sky and their fans make are pretty major. And require a little.more.proof than has been offered.

team sky have an anti doping policy.............i have heard no claims of
influincing other teams actions

what is so surprising about team sky's claim to be clean? back to the same
question...................it is for doubters to prove that sky are doping
not the other way around

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

Everybody just want to chill a bit here? Take it easy, folks......

Susan

 

[ebandit]

apocalypse now

Everybody just want to chill a bit here? Take it easy, folks......

Susan

sorry! susan i'm all in a panic over the end of the world later today..........
glad we have someone in control at the helm during this hour of need

 

[JimmyFingers]

10,000 Clinic posts say something different.

Em, Garmin, anyone? Garmin make far more PR of their anti-doping efforts. Which given the set up of the team is ientirely understandable. Sky are no different in terms of what they claim than say GreenEdge. Where are the 10,000 posts on GreenEdge?

Rather hyperbolic. Source?

Here we go with the reverse racism bullsh!t again. tedious, hyperbolic, and frankly disingenuious.

Where have Sky told anybody "we'll take it from here"?

Honestly, Sky really do enough stupid bullsh!t for real. You don't have to make up and exaggerate crap too.

Very solid response. There's a real danger here in a clinic that the 'anglophone' accusations have become so lazy and endemic here that they are are instead demonstrating the bias they're are supposed to attack.

 

[thehog]

Very solid response. There's a real danger here in a clinic that the 'anglophone' accusations have become so lazy and endemic here that they are are instead demonstrating the bias they're are supposed to attack.

Yes Jimmy it's like when you make statements like "...there are several Doctors with a far more dodgy reputation than Lienders" and then fail to name who these Doctors are.

You don't mind a wee bit of Sky-storm-stirring yourself.

You make the statement but fail on the evidence.

 

[workingclasshero]

Has it been covered here that Sky aren't abandoning Tenerife after all, they're sending Edvald Boa Hagen there sometime a couple of months into the new year.

So just sit back and watch Boasson Hagen, after having done one of the 'magical' Tenerife camps, go on to win a couple of the biggest classics out there.

 

[ebandit]

your kidding me?

You make the statement but fail on the evidence.

hoggie.............your joking? after pages of 'wiggo / ferrari connection'
.........'video proof of sky doping'............with zero evidence?

+ recent observations as to sporting qualities / entertainment value
but little talk for here in the clinic?

 

[Benotti69]

Very solid response. There's a real danger here in a clinic that the 'anglophone' accusations have become so lazy and endemic here that they are are instead demonstrating the bias they're are supposed to attack.

No doubt the Italians are *****ing in their forums about the Padova Investigation while Sky and Garmin made everyone look like a joke.

It is an anglo saxon forum. There are plenty of non anglo saxons posting, that you only appear in Sky related threads as is your wont shows how narrow your agenda is.

 

[Alphabet]

Where are the 10,000 posts on GreenEdge?

You'll just need to wait. They'll come once Jack Bobridge dominates the stage racing calendar and tops it off with a thumping victory in the Tour.

We've seen 4 previously decent to average riders elevate their levels unthinkably high in the space of about 18 months. I think we are entitled to question and discuss Sky's probable doping practices to death.

 

[JimmyFingers]

You make the statement but fail on the evidence.

Best line you ever wrote. Genius

 

[JimmyFingers]

It is an anglo saxon forum.

That's where I'm going wrong then: I'm a Celt