Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Mellow Velo]

So.Chris froome. Who in.a year went from not even.being considered for.the tour de France to strongest rider in the race.

According to you if.lienders doesn't.confess to.doping sky, all questions surrounding that improvement disappear? And dodgers and portes performances too for that matter. Without.lienders those.performances cease to be eybrow raising and shame on anyone who dares think-" hang on..."

?

Let me just clarify my opinion.
I was assuming that a full and frank confession is brought about by this, or any subsequent investigation.

Of course, I understand if said confession did not fully implicate Sky, he would cease to be fundamental to the debate, from the negative standpoint.

Heads I win, tails, you lose sort of clinic coin.

 

[Joachim]

Feck sake, dangerous or not , though of course a concern is rather missing the point. Doping is theft , no if`s or buts.

The tone of certain posters is very much that of apologists.

Hate to use the cliché but Occam's razor any one?

The application of the principle often shifts the burden of proof in a discussion. The razor states that one should proceed to simpler theories until simplicity can be traded for greater explanatory power. The simplest available theory need not be most accurate. Philosophers also point out that the exact meaning of simplest may be nuanced.
By this understanding Sky/ BC have a bloody huge book of explaining to do and they are NOT doing so.
It looks like a duck, it walks like...even quacks like a duck...very high chance its a bloody duck...

You've misunderstood Occams razor, Darryl.

It's all about going for the fewest assumptions. Occams razor won't help you in your argument

Besides, you've not bothered to read back why we are discussing the safety of EPO. We know it's use in sport is cheating, that isn't what we are discussing. Nobody is being an apologist for anything.

Calm down,dear.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Still think those posts are stronger than someone who thinks that EPO is safe for no reason other than Bjarne Riis is alive. We did have riders dying in the 90s, we almost had Ricco die in the 00s, we have no idea what complications the cocktail of drugs that has been coursing through the veins of the peloton since 1990 will do to you down the line. Despite all this you say that Bjarne is healthy (how you know this I'm not so sure; are you his doctor maybe?) and therefore everything is hunky dory. I think I would be a lot happier if I was as naive as you.

and gianetti, lance, ugrumov etc etc etc

and I"m not saying it's save but some doping and injectiosn are definitely more healthier than riding cleanly. any docter I've heard about this agrees on that.

 

[Caruut]

@hrotha Do you know if there is a direct correlation between their deaths and EPO usage?

It's obviously awfully difficult to get people to come out and say someone who recently died young was a cheat, and they may not even consider him to be one (given the everyone was doing it line of moral reasoning). It's also most likely that everyone who knew that someone was on EPO had a pretty strong interest in not talking. There was also no test for EPO at the time, so even even someone doing an autopsy wanted to check for it, they couldn't have done so.

What we do know is that EPO causes issues with circulation where because the blood is so heavily oxygenated and the athletes are so well trained, when sleeping the heart would slow down to such a level that riders were at risk of cardiac failure when sleeping.

We also know that these types of deaths started occurring with alarming regularity along with the rise of EPO. This is what led to the introduction of the 50% rule - it was the best that could be done at the time and did seem to reduce the number of fatalities.

Given how serious the events taking place were - a bunch of young, otherwise healthy men dying - I think that if there was another explanation it would most likely have been found. The conclusion that the deaths are down to EPO is, I think, the only reasonable one you can come to.

 

[Caruut]

and gianetti, lance, ugrumov etc etc etc

and I"m not saying it's save but some doping and injectiosn are definitely more healthier than riding cleanly. any docter I've heard about this agrees on that.

Wait, didn't one of those guys have a few health issues? I'm sure I remember reading about one of them having cancer.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

I thought it was well known that EPO could lead to serious health issues

just as drinking milk has...

 

[Joachim]

@Caruut Yes, I agree, but the post of mine you quote was asking about deaths Hroths linked to occurring in the last ten years.

 

[Caruut]

and I"m not saying it's save but some doping and injectiosn are definitely more healthier than riding cleanly. any docter I've heard about this agrees on that.

Find me a quote from a doctor without a vested interest in people believing that doping is morally acceptable and I might stop thinking you're being ridiculous. Quoting a Fuentes, a Ferrari or anyone else involved in cycling is pointless because it proves nothing - of course those doctors involved with doping want us to believe they are saints and not corrupt, manipulative ****ers.

 

[Caruut]

@Caruut Yes, I agree, but the post of mine you quote was asking about deaths Hroths linked to occurring in the last ten years.

Ah yes, my bad. I think the 50% rule and subsequent testing have certainly reduced the danger, at least in the short term.

 

[ebandit]

outarageous

I'm glad so many here are comfortable with the fact that Dr. Lienders injected riders with EPO.

i think all here are actually outraged at these practices but remember were talking activity at rabobank

do you recall their zero tolerence policy then?

question is not if members are ouraged but if such practices have been carried out by team sky

 

[Caruut]

just as drinking milk has...

Yes, of course. Eating has killed people, just like shooting people has, so the only logical conclusion is to either ban both or ban neither.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

EPO's danger should be discussed in an EPO thread.

When is Brailsford doing his Manchester Q&A session? He threatened to answer all our questions then, but it's the start of the season and we've had nada.

Not a single thing.

 

[mastersracer]

Leinders is sketchy, but how exactly is the situation at Sky an outlier? There's dodgy DS's like Riis with riders like Contador, and even the 'reformed' teams like Garmin have Lim, who has been implicated by Floyd and Levi, worked with Armstrong on 'hydration.'

If links to personnel with sketchy pasts is enough for guilt, the entire cycling world would be guilty.

 

[Bexon30]

EPO's danger should be discussed in an EPO thread.

When is Brailsford doing his Manchester Q&A session? He threatened to answer all our questions then, but it's the start of the season and we've had nada.

Not a single thing.

There should be opportunity made by SKY as they love being transparent. So many questions...(that alone could start a thread!)
I am curious to why there's a lack of questions asked by the press. The Geert Leindeers thing is an absolute joke.

 

[thehog]

Leinders is sketchy, but how exactly is the situation at Sky an outlier? There's dodgy DS's like Riis with riders like Contador, and even the 'reformed' teams like Garmin have Lim, who has been implicated by Floyd and Levi, worked with Armstrong on 'hydration.'

If links to personnel with sketchy pasts is enough for guilt, the entire cycling world would be guilty.

Riis doped alone. He acted alone.

Leinders injected EPO into young cyclists blood streams using the privilege of being a Doctor.

Sketchy? Dekker was 21. A young man and was “influenced” by a medical practitioner by injecting EPO into his blood stream along with other harmful products.

That's sick.

 

[Bexon30]

There should be opportunity made by SKY as they love being transparent. So many questions...(that alone could start a thread!)
I am curious to why there's a lack of questions asked by the press. The Geert Leindeers thing is an absolute joke.

Also from a selfish viewpoint I would love to see Bradley asked directly about Geerts' time at sky on a live interview.

 

[Joachim]

Congratulations. You've just described doping at Rabobank. Again.

As this is the Sky thread, perhaps you should hop over the road to the Rabo thread and express your, clearly genuine, outrage over there

 

[sniper]

There should be opportunity made by SKY as they love being transparent. So many questions...(that alone could start a thread!)
I am curious to why there's a lack of questions asked by the press. The Geert Leindeers thing is an absolute joke.

A few useful comments I found in this piece, but it's an exception:

Team Sky reiterated their commitment to being clean after last summer's Tour, when asking all staff to sign a pledge confirming they had never been involved in doping.

Two riders, three coaches and a doctor have since left Team Sky after either admitting past doping or being implicated in USADA's dossier of evidence against Armstrong.

Any T&R process would involve everyone from Team Sky sharing what they know about doping, from departed coach Sean Yates (a long-time close friend of Armstrong), departed doctor Geert Leinders (linked to a systematic doping programme at a former team) and departed coach and former rider Bobby Julich (who recently admitted past doping) to riders including Wiggins, widely seen as the poster boy for a new clean era.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ot...l-names-doping-accomplices.html#ixzz2IjZXsAEl
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[Joachim]

Riis doped alone. He acted alone.

Leinders injected EPO into young cyclists blood streams using the privilege of being a Doctor.

Sketchy? Dekker was 21. A young man and was “influenced” by a medical practitioner by injecting EPO into his blood stream along with other harmful products.

That's sick.

Congratulations. You've just described doping at Rabobank. Again.

As this is the Sky thread, perhaps you should hop over the road to the Rabo thread and express your, clearly genuine, outrage over there

 

[mastersracer]

Riis doped alone. He acted alone.

Leinders injected EPO into young cyclists blood streams using the privilege of being a Doctor.

Sketchy? Dekker was 21. A young man and was “influenced” by a medical practitioner by injecting EPO into his blood stream along with other harmful products.

That's sick.

BS. Dekker admits:

“I’d had problems all winter with my hip and then with the new team so at the end of 2007 I was feeling a lot of pressure. I wasn’t feeling myself in the team anymore. There was never any pressure from them though to use doping. I went out of my way to dope, I was responsible.”

 

[Joachim]

I don't think we'll be hearing much from the hog again tonight

 

[thehog]

BS. Dekker admits:

“I’d had problems all winter with my hip and then with the new team so at the end of 2007 I was feeling a lot of pressure. I wasn’t feeling myself in the team anymore. There was never any pressure from them though to use doping. I went out of my way to dope, I was responsible.”

Great selective quoting.

Dekker said that when he was caught.

Since then others from Rabobank have come out and explained what really went on.

Dekker now tells the full story:

“They should have told me to be patient and to stay clear of doping, but that wasn’t the case,” he said. “There was no dissenting voice. Doping was a way of life and a way of riding for many teammates, colleagues and me, too. Doping was part of the job – it’s hard, you train hard and you do everything for the bike.”

Its so sad many here are trying to defend Leinders. He's a medical Doctor. He injected EPO in to the blood streams of young riders.

And you think its funny?

Disgusting.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

So despite there being 'zero chance' of being exposed, he has been exposed even before the investigations have really gone public.

Betting on Rabo's doping doctor never being mentioned in two cases involving doping at Rabo is one hell of a gamble. It's certainly not zero chance. And he was one of the management as well.

I said "almost zero chance" - why did you deliberately leave that out?

And I was specific about the 2 cases, Rasmusssen & Humanplasma, where Leinders has not been mentioned.
So yes, I am correct in saying that if it was not for the media and De Rooj that there was "almost zero chance" of him being exposed through those investigations.

 

[mastersracer]

Great selective quoting.

Dekker said that when he was caught.

Since then others from Rabobank have come out and explained what really went on.

Dekker now tells the full story:



Its so sad many here are trying to defend Leinders. He's a medical Doctor. He injected EPO in to the blood streams of young riders.

And you think its funny?

Disgusting.

who said it was funny? Dekker made a choice. Armstrong made a choice. Some chose not to dope. No one said it was funny. No one said Leinders wasn't sketchy. But every team had one back then or a link to one. Were the same riders forced to go to Vienna?

Good work with the fake moral indignation and selective recall, but Riis did not act alone. Are you forgetting what Riis said to Hamilton? What about Moral and Matt White and Trent Lowe at Garmin? What about Lim and Floyd and Armstrong and Garmin? Your fixation with Leinders and Sky is blinding you...

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

BS. Dekker admits:

“I’d had problems all winter with my hip and then with the new team so at the end of 2007 I was feeling a lot of pressure. I wasn’t feeling myself in the team anymore. There was never any pressure from them though to use doping. I went out of my way to dope, I was responsible.”

let's see how thehog is going to save himself out of this one...