Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[thehog]

Wow, I make that about 5 pages of gloating since I was here, impressive work

Life is just unfair.

Don't worry Jimmy. Sky are in Tenerife unaware of the troubles.

The classics will be smashed to pieces.

You can gloate then.

 

[doperhopper]

Wiggo "My Time": "We need guys like Geert Leinders because on top of being a bloody good doctor with a heap of experience, guys like him...

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Now what? Will the book go to the "fiction" category, or they'll add errata leaflet with corrections like "bloody good doctor" => "good blood doctor".

 

[mattghg]

Interesting that both Landis and Rasmussen were both considered 'outsiders' once they were both banned. Having been put in this position they have nothing to lose and finally tell all.

I am curious how the consensus to let someone back into pro cycling is made. Basso, Vino and Valverde had no such problems. And, it is not as if Landis and Rasmussen had given up anything prior to being rejected out of sight. I guess with Rasmussen you could argue his age went against him...

This reminds me of a book review I read on Podium Cafe

http://www.podiumcafe.com/2012/10/3/3448776/the-scapegoat-by-verner-mller

Antonio Rigozzi, a Swiss lawyer who has acted for several riders in doping cases, had this to say on the issue:

"I have followed Michael Rasmussen's case closely. It is clear that the UCI puts pressure on teams not to sign him. There are no rules in cycling. It is a world where people in small offices decide the riders' future."

This - that people in small offices get to decide riders' futures, regardless of the stated rules - is one of the key themes of The Scapegoat.

 

[cineteq]

Dario Cioni finally states why Sir Wiggo won everything last year, it's time to leave him out of the clinic for good, no?

"Another thing is that Brad really did a year that was one-thousand percent for the bike, one-thousand percent committed. And that’s something people don’t see at home, or maybe don’t realize."

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...transparency-wiggins-and-winning-tours_277210

 

[JimmyFingers]

Life is just unfair.

Don't worry Jimmy. Sky are in Tenerife unaware of the troubles.

The classics will be smashed to pieces.

You can gloate then.

No, Sky are off the juice now, they've eradicated all links to the past and jettisoned Leinders like last night's curry, oof.

The classics teams will get smashed by OPQS up and down the Ardennes and the GT teams will zig-zag up the smallest hill, washed away by a resurgence of the continental squads, on the juice again because of the arms race started by Sky and Leinders' dodgy injections last year.

All because of Sky.

 

[Ferminal]

Wiggo "My Time": "We need guys like Geert Leinders because on top of being a bloody good doctor with a heap of experience, guys like him...

---

Now what? Will the book go to the "fiction" category, or they'll add errata leaflet with corrections like "bloody good doctor" => "good blood doctor".

You could argue that Leinders had some sort of revelation post-Rabo and pre-Sky whereby he completely shifted his attitude from being one of "I will dope riders to help them achieve their goals" to one of "doping is horrible and unacceptable, I need to communicate that to all riders on the team". This is essentially what JV expects from all of his "ex"-doper managers.

Even if that was not the case, it does not mean that Leinders at Sky means all their high performers were doping. Maybe Leinders was the lowest ranking staff member/had minimal contact with the key riders/knew they could win without doping.

As you can see, you need to be pretty creative in the narrative to explain away his role. But as I said earlier, it will probably not change anyone's core beliefs about Sky. If you don't believe they doped you will simply argue there's zero proof of Leinders doping anyone at Sky. If you already believed that Sky doped you will use it as more proof in your arguments.

For me it's probably gone from "I think Sky doped but do not know if Leinders was a part of that" to "I think Sky doped and Leinders was more than likely a part of it".

 

[mattghg]

You could argue that Leinders had some sort of revelation post-Rabo and pre-Sky whereby he completely shifted his attitude from being one of "I will dope riders to help them achieve their goals" to one of "doping is horrible and unacceptable, I need to communicate that to all riders on the team". This is essentially what JV expects from all of his "ex"-doper managers.

Or you could say that Leinders just went with the flow of whatever team he was working for. A team with a doping culture? Then he'll participate. A team with a clean culture? Then he'll work with that and tell them what they want to hear about his past.

Of course this is just speculation.

 

[Ferminal]

Or you could say that Leinders just went with the flow of whatever team he was working for. A team with a doping culture? Then he'll participate. A team with a clean culture? Then he'll work with that and tell them what they want to hear about his past.

Of course this is just speculation.

Perhaps, but I think even the road from organising/administering drugs and blood, to indifference, is a long one. For me he's now up there with say a Del Moral at USPS.

As a separate argument you could say that Sky 2010-2012 had too many "ex"-dopers to be considered a clean culture. Slipstream can get away with it because of the strong leadership but there was none of that at Sky until 6 months ago.

 

[JimmyFingers]

You could argue that Leinders had some sort of revelation post-Rabo and pre-Sky whereby he completely shifted his attitude from being one of "I will dope riders to help them achieve their goals" to one of "doping is horrible and unacceptable, I need to communicate that to all riders on the team". This is essentially what JV expects from all of his "ex"-doper managers.

Even if that was not the case, it does not mean that Leinders at Sky means all their high performers were doping. Maybe Leinders was the lowest ranking staff member/had minimal contact with the key riders/knew they could win without doping.

As you can see, you need to be pretty creative in the narrative to explain away his role. But as I said earlier, it will probably not change anyone's core beliefs about Sky. If you don't believe they doped you will simply argue there's zero proof of Leinders doping anyone at Sky. If you already believed that Sky doped you will use it as more proof in your arguments.

For me it's probably gone from "I think Sky doped but do not know if Leinders was a part of that" to "I think Sky doped and Leinders was more than likely a part of it".

+1 a strong assessment of the current state of play. Clearly there's no justification for Leinders being at Sky at all, and I think Sky need to face questions over his role. It's clearly a subject Kimmage is all over, and presumably getting Walsh embedded was a preemptive move, knowing these revelations about Leinders were going to come out.

My own opinion remains largely unchanged, and I'll wait to see how things develop. I do think that if Sky have doped, then the clinic will get their pound of flesh because, in the current climate, they are going to find it very hard to keep a lid on it.

 

[thehog]

Dario Cioni finally states why Sir Wiggo won everything last year, it's time to leave him out of the clinic for good, no?

"Another thing is that Brad really did a year that was one-thousand percent for the bike, one-thousand percent committed. And that’s something people don’t see at home, or maybe don’t realize."

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...transparency-wiggins-and-winning-tours_277210

1000% committed generally involves a doping program.

Hard work wins it apprently. Viva la Tour.

 

[mattghg]

As a separate argument you could say that Sky 2010-2012 had too many "ex"-dopers to be considered a clean culture. Slipstream can get away with it because of the strong leadership but there was none of that at Sky until 6 months ago.

When and how do you think that Sky leadership became 'strong'?

 

[JimmyFingers]

When and how do you think that Sky leadership became 'strong'?

About thirty seconds after the USADA released its reasoned decision and they released they were up to their neck.

Must have been an interesting conversation:

Brailsford: Seany, didn't you used to ride with Armstrong?
Yates: Errr, yesth, of couple of timeth
Brailsford: and weren't you his DS?
Yates: where you going with thish David?

 

[thehog]

Wiggo "My Time": "We need guys like Geert Leinders because on top of being a bloody good doctor with a heap of experience, guys like him...

---

Now what? Will the book go to the "fiction" category, or they'll add errata leaflet with corrections like "bloody good doctor" => "good blood doctor".

I think it so you can sell $40 mugs like this. Cycling is clean has become very profitable.

 

[JimmyFingers]

http://www.rapha.cc/rapha-coffee-mug

If that's from Rapha then it's quality indeed

 

[SundayRider]

The way this is going, I can see a Sky implosion this year. The Telegraph ran the Rasmussen 'Leinders doped me story'.

 

[thehog]

http://www.rapha.cc/rapha-coffee-mug

If that's from Rapha then it's quality indeed

It's not......

 

[mattghg]

The way this is going, I can see a Sky implosion this year. The Telegraph ran the Rasmussen 'Leinders doped me story'.

But I thought the entire British media was part of a grand conspiracy to never ask any questions of Sky?

 

[JimmyFingers]

It's not......

Not from Rapha or Rapha isn't quality, because I was poking fun at Rapha

 

[thehog]

The way this is going, I can see a Sky implosion this year. The Telegraph ran the Rasmussen 'Leinders doped me story'.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...-at-the-heart-of-Rabobank-doping-culture.html

Michael Rasmussen accuses Dr Geert Leinders of being at the heart of Rabobank doping culture

Sky insist that Leinders conduct was above suspicion during his time working with them.

 

[SundayRider]

But I thought the entire British media was part of a grand conspiracy to never ask any questions of Sky?

Well the article said that Rasmussen was 'disgraced' and that Leinders 'worked part time for a brief period' at Sky.

 

[thehog]

Not from Rapha or Rapha isn't quality, because I was poking fun at Rapha

We agree.

Rapha is for knobs.

 

[thehog]

But I thought the entire British media was part of a grand conspiracy to never ask any questions of Sky?

Hi Jocieam.

 

[SundayRider]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...-at-the-heart-of-Rabobank-doping-culture.html

Michael Rasmussen accuses Dr Geert Leinders of being at the heart of Rabobank doping culture

I'm just shocked that Sky employed a guy who helped riders dope and avoid testing positive

 

[thehog]

I'm just shocked that Sky employed a guy who helped riders dope and avoid testing positive

I'm shocked as well. He injected young cyclists with EPO and set up a blood doping program.

But "we need guys like Dr. Lienders"....

 

[The Hitch]

As long as they aren't along the lines of 'where are the Skybots? What do they have to say for themselves?''

That was from.the hog. You going to.dismiss the entire 5 pages because of 1 or 2 posts from a troll?

Interesting that both Landis and Rasmussen were both considered 'outsiders' once they were both banned. Having been put in this position they have nothing to lose and finally tell all.

I am curious how the consensus to let someone back into pro cycling is made. Basso, Vino and Valverde had no such problems. And, it is not as if Landis and Rasmussen had given up anything prior to being rejected out of sight. I guess with Rasmussen you could argue his age went against him...

Landis won the tour. Rasmussen was about to win the tour. Ullrich won the tour. These guys don't come.back because they supposedly ruined the race which for many is the only one.

Contador won the tour but it was not blood doping, but a very small and weak substance, so he can still pretend he hasnt doped and others can pretend to believe him.