Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[airstream]

Yet where is our man Vlad...

The young rider classification is subject to all sorts of distortions, what is relevant is his actual climbing/time trialing performance not some arbitrary "classification".

Saying about Karpets, you are pondering about a long perspective, but we don't know what will happen to Porte in a year or two. Karpets had a top-10 finish in the 2005 Giro and did very strong 2007 season. White jersey doesn't guarantee brilliant GT future, but it is a very good sign which is confirmed by good result almost always.

 

[airstream]

Whatever it is, Porte didn't have it

Based on what? On your not very friendly perception? The man rode his first GT in his 1st season in Pro Tour. The fact that he passed the mountains on the level of top-15 says a lot by itself.

 

[The Hitch]

Looking forward then to seeing Kevin Seeldraeyers tear up the tour this year and Paris nice the next.

 

[airstream]

Looking forward then to seeing Kevin Seeldraeyers tear up the tour this year and Paris nice the next.

What do you root for? Clean cycling? Then it would be logical to choose other rider for supporting. Fair distribution of doping? It is impossible in the sport. Doping edge always was a significant part of all successful riders.

 

[airstream]

Looking forward then to seeing Kevin Seeldraeyers tear up the tour this year and Paris nice the next.

Seeldrayers + Salmon. 2. 2 vs 20 MB winners for the last 13 years. Proportion in Porte's favor.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Based on what? On your not very friendly perception? The man rode his first GT in his 1st season in Pro Tour. The fact that he passed the mountains on the level of top-15 says a lot by itself.

Since he got a 12 minute 20 bonus on Mollema to win the White Porte should be on the podium of a GT pretty soon.

He was a nice TT talent, at SKY he became a climber. Seen that fairytale before, you clearly not?

Can't wait to see Cataldo's progress in TT'ing.

 

[airstream]

Since he got a 12 minute 20 bonus on Mollema to win the White Porte should be on the podium of a GT pretty soon.

He was a nice TT talent, at SKY he became a climber. Seen that fairytale before, you clearly not?

Can't wait to see Cataldo's progress in TT'ing.

No, I don't see miracles in it, considering circumstances of last Porte's season on Saxo. Anticlimber (an absolute non-climber) would fail in the mountains like a sprinter or a flat truck do it. Porte demonsrated a worthy climbing level and quite good recovery.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

No, I don't see miracles in it, considering circumstances of last Porte's season on Saxo. Anticlimber (an absolute non-climber) would fail in the mountains like a sprinter or a flat truck do it. Porte demonsrated a worthy climbing level and quite good recovery.

You fail to see what I am talking about, no surprise there.

Porte: TT
Mollema: climber

Both first GT's, Mollema whipped Ritchie's bottom every mountainstage, still can not TT, Porte suddenly knows how to do both. But please, do keep your eyes wide shut.

And please, take his 2011 season into account, or does that not suit your thesis?

 

[martinvickers]

Insiders such as Brailsford must have known ever since the (late) 2000s that Australia and Canada offer a rich pool of racers willing to use, or already using, PEDs, in an attempt to catch up with the European cycling elite. UCI have supported this common-wealth trend, I reckon, for instance by talking to local federations ensuring that there will be no positives.

Now, Snipes you know the USA and (most of)Ireland aren't in the commonwealth - you're going to have to rejig the theory there...tut, tut, that's basic stuff - i expect better conspiracy stuff from you...

 

[maltiv]

Hitch has totally debunked this amazing GT Giro ride. Porte was on the escapees who got a big advantage which he then lost huge time in the next 3 stages.

Stop repeating Porte has shown GT potential before Sky. He hasn't.

If you do a simple analysis where you take away the time Porte and other's gained from the large breakaway, Porte is still in top 10 overall though.

That being said, it would still have been a very unimpressive top 10, as he never was there on the mountain stages, even if he were quite consistent. But to say that someone who has been top 10 in a GT hasn't even shown potential in a GT is quite absurd imo.

 

[Benotti69]

If you do a simple analysis where you take away the time Porte and other's gained from the large breakaway, Porte is still in top 10 overall though.

That being said, it would still have been a very unimpressive top 10, as he never was there on the mountain stages, even if he were quite consistent. But to say that someone who has been top 10 in a GT hasn't even shown potential in a GT is quite absurd imo.

Sean Kelly won P-N quite a few times but never was GT podium material till KAS organised a Vuelta victory like RCS gave one to Moser.

Porte aint GT quality till arriving at Sky.

 

[Benotti69]

Now, Snipes you know the USA and (most of)Ireland aren't in the commonwealth - you're going to have to rejig the theory there...tut, tut, that's basic stuff - i expect better conspiracy stuff from you...

MV, where does Sniper mention USA or Ireland in his post?

 

[airstream]

You fail to see what I am talking about, no surprise there.

Porte: TT
Mollema: climber

Both first GT's, Mollema whipped Ritchie's bottom every mountainstage, still can not TT, Porte suddenly knows how to do both. But please, do keep your eyes wide shut.

And please, take his 2011 season into account, or does that not suit your thesis?

It is just incomparable. Initially Mollema has a better organics and constitution to be a climber than Richie. Plus Mollema started the Giro being a climber. Porte handled the climbs like one big experiment he didn't know how he would get over them. What means couldn't climb? AGAIN, Porte rode mountain stages on the level of top 10-15, without considering his breakaway margin. Is that weak for a GT neophyte, given that killing route? Yes, I believe in Porte and I believe in Voeckler in 2011, remembering 2004. Because weak climbers will nevel be able to ride the mountains so strongly.

As to Mollema and Porte now, it is hard to say. Riders never improve consistently. One meets expectations and other doesn't. It is very unpredictable. We have a strong rider beating a mediocre field. I think, very likely PN victory would become a top of his career in many multi-day races. And to refuse him in his right to win it clean as all of you categorically do is wrong.

 

[Franklin]

Sean Kelly won P-N quite a few times but never was GT podium material till KAS organised a Vuelta victory like RCS gave one to Moser.

The historic facts belie that one. Not only did he finish fourth in the Vuelta two years before he won Paris Nice, his vuelta win was preceded by twice top 5 TdF and a podium spot in the Vuelta. In fact he only had 1 top ten aferwards ^^

Kelly's Vuelta win wasn't unexpected and certainly not orchestrated like Mosers. Sean was a genuine contender and on the short list for a TdF win.

 

[bianchigirl]

Fascinating watching the skybots tie themselves in knots proving that 'clean' riders can & should handily beat doped ones - rule book totally rewritten...

Ask any journo when they suspected Armstrong - 99 stage 9 then subsequent dominance of USPS mountain train - there was no 'evidence' beyond that of their own eyes. Fast forward to 2012/3 - sometimes you just have to trust what you see

 

[JimmyFingers]

I was encouraged by Porte's performance. Looking at it positively, I can't believe that Sky and probably most of the rest of the peloton are doping given the backdrop oif Padua,Puerto, the reasoned decision and the Rabobank fallout. If there is anything these teach you is that empire's crumble, even one's like Armstrong's.

I can't imagine riders thinking they can dope and get away with it these days. You may have success in the short term, but eventually the truth will out and someone will blab, or the police will catch up with you.

So I do think Sky are clean this season, and if they are performing like they did last season I will draw from that they were probably clean last season too.

I realise many will draw the opposite conclusion but seeing the team ride like that I found reassuring. So there.

 

[bianchigirl]

Franklin, Kelly was never a real GC contender - he was always going to be the plucky nearly but not quite man over 3 weeks. Much as wiggins would have been had he not had his thousand days, leinders & a raft of dodgy Australian 'sports scientists'

 

[bianchigirl]

JF empires crumble if there's the will for that to happen - UCI won't want to investigate Sky, English speaking journos are on the new religion bandwagon & if a bskyb backed breakaway league takes off there'll be no touching them - besides, they'll have learned how to handle any rider being exposed in light of Armstrong

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

The historic facts belie that one. Not only did he finish fourth in the Vuelta two years before he won Paris Nice, his vuelta win was preceded by twice top 5 TdF and a podium spot in the Vuelta. In fact he only had 1 top ten aferwards ^^

Kelly's Vuelta win wasn't unexpected and certainly not orchestrated like Mosers. Sean was a genuine contender and on the short list for a TdF win.

Lol, do you remember that last TT in the Tour of 1984?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEUx5lItfng

Now, that was racing.

Note the commentary of LeMond on TT'ing and climbing...

 

[Franklin]

I was encouraged by Porte's performance. Looking at it positively, I can't believe that Sky and probably most of the rest of the peloton are doping given the backdrop oif Padua,Puerto, the reasoned decision and the Rabobank fallout. If there is anything these teach you is that empire's crumble, even one's like Armstrong's.

Yeah man... just like Festina, it was an instant end to doping.

Puerto was followed by absolutely the cleanest race TdF ever, where Floyd showed how scared he was. 2007 was even cleaner where Michael "Angel" Rasmussen was showing his pure powers.

I can't imagine riders thinking they can dope and get away with it these days. You may have success in the short term, but eventually the truth will out and someone will blab, or the police will catch up with you.

Yeah like Rasmussen who is now on his way to win a huge sum in court.

So I do think Sky are clean this season, and if they are performing like they did last season I will draw from that they were probably clean last season too.

Indeed, because you used logic and facts to come to that conclusion.

Oh snap, the logic you used has been shown to be flatout wrong in the above sections...

I realise many will draw the opposite conclusion but seeing the team ride like that I found reassuring. So there.

Yeah, like absolutely killing Denis "Mother Theresa" Mencov like he was having two flat tubes. Really reassuring

 

[Lanark]

I was encouraged by Porte's performance. Looking at it positively, I can't believe that Sky and probably most of the rest of the peloton are doping given the backdrop oif Padua,Puerto, the reasoned decision and the Rabobank fallout. If there is anything these teach you is that empire's crumble, even one's like Armstrong's.

Hahahahahahahahaha!

 

[JimmyFingers]

I didn't expect a chorus of agreement

 

[Franklin]

Franklin, Kelly was never a real GC contender - he was always going to be the plucky nearly but not quite man over 3 weeks. Much as wiggins would have been had he not had his thousand days, leinders & a raft of dodgy Australian 'sports scientists'

Sorry, I was a big cycling fan in those years who devoured every magazine. Sean was on the short list of contender in 84-89. Just for perspective, check out who ended above him in the 1984/1985 TdF's.

Tdf
1983 - 7
1984 - 5
1985 - 4

Vuelta
1985 - 9
1986 - 3
1987 - abandon when close to winning
1988 - win

Sean was a contender, even if we disregard his Vuelta win.

 

[JimmyFingers]

JF empires crumble if there's the will for that to happen - UCI won't want to investigate Sky, English speaking journos are on the new religion bandwagon & if a bskyb backed breakaway league takes off there'll be no touching them - besides, they'll have learned how to handle any rider being exposed in light of Armstrong

I hear and understand that, but I just can't see cycling surviving with things the way they are, there has to be a change both from within the peloton and by the governing body, and independent testing.

But even with things the way they are people are getting caught left, right and centre. People are having to admit to a career of doping, and totally undermining everything they have achieved. I can't imagine pros looking at the fallout and thinking they can get away with doping.It may not happen straight away but eventually they get caught. Even big Mig won't get away with it, when he looked home and dry.

 

[Franklin]

I didn't expect a chorus of agreement

I know, but really, even you should see that your logic is flawed?

I'm fine with you believing they are clean... but the logic you displayed here is bizarre.