Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Bernie's eyesore]

Cataldo came 12th in the Giro so its hardly surprising that he was able to do a good job as fourth last man in the Sky train. If he had done a ride like Henao yesterday then I could understand the fuss but he did nothing of the sort. Also, he was at a completely unsuitable team last year for a rider of his type so it's not unreasonable that he should show some improvement now he is with Sky.

 

[thehog]

You're chasing shadows

You’re telling the story. He’s your boy. Apparently you remember the stage at the Vuetla well. But you can’t spell his name! Must have had some impact on you. LOL!

 

[JimmyFingers]

I recall Ballan winning a mountain stage at the Vuelta a few years ago. Cataldo finished that Vuelta in 51st place, almost 2 hours down on GC. Guys like that are allowed to get in breaks, regardless of it being the queen stage or not.

Ok but we're not debating whether he can win a GT or not, but whether he's a strong climber, and winning a queen stage, whether in a breakaway or not, is a strong indicator. I also suggest you factor in the nature of the Cuitu Negri, it was utterly brutal.

This was the fourth stage of a one week stage race. Sky were unimpressive in the TTT, weren't interested in the sprints so just kept put of trouble, then unleashed their climbing elite in the last 14k of a stage they otherwise did very little in. Cataldo finished the climb in 26th after setting a fierce pace early on and putting himself into the red.

It wasn't a super-human performance.

 

[sniper]

The point is if Walsh (with a strong Anti-doping history) can be corrupted by a trip paid for by Sky, why wouldn't any journalist be under the same suspicion ?

i just know that walsh has alrerady shown signs of being on the sky bandwagon even before he got the sky clubcard.
and it's interesting to ask why sky chose walsh. the whole concept of having a journo on board is in fact kimmage's idea (Garmin 2008) and kimmage wanted to do it last year with sky but was refused.

 

[JimmyFingers]

No, it doesn't mean he can't climb, but it means you're being dishonest with the way to put forth the data.

Dishonest? Show me the lie. I think people are trying to be dishonest questioning Cataldo's pedigree, clearly he's a talented rider with a worthy palmares, and thankfully there are posters like Hitch who are willing to acknowledge that.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Silly boy. Do you not remember the 2012 Vuelta? I seem to remember we had words often during it. I watched stage 16, I saw Cotaldo win on that monster hill, a very good talent. Doesn't suit your obfuscation of course.

Come on Jimmy, that was a let win, all over it. Crawling to the top.

I looked at his carreer stats and it seems I overvalued him. He always is at the backend of Mollema for example. Who dropped like a stone when Cataldo was pulling on the front of the peloton.

 

[thehog]

Come on Jimmy, that was a let win, all over it. Crawling to the top.

I looked at his carreer stats and it seems I overvalued him. He always is at the backend of Mollema for example. Who dropped like a stone when Cataldo was pulling on the front of the peloton.

Is there footage of the stage win? I want to see his form.

 

[hrotha]

Dishonest? Show me the lie. I think people are trying to be dishonest questioning Cataldo's pedigree, clearly he's a talented rider with a worthy palmares, and thankfully there are posters like Hitch who are willing to acknowledge that.

Yes, dishonest. By mentioning several times that he won the queen stage of the Vuelta, without mentioning he did so from a breakaway, you expect others to make certain inferences they wouldn't make if they had all the info.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Come on Jimmy, that was a let win, all over it. Crawling to the top.

I looked at his carreer stats and it seems I overvalued him. He always is at the backend of Mollema for example. Who dropped like a stone when Cataldo was pulling on the front of the peloton.

Well he distanced de Gendt to take that stage

 

[JimmyFingers]

Yes, dishonest. By mentioning several times that he won the queen stage of the Vuelta, without mentioning he did so from a breakaway, you expect others to make certain inferences they wouldn't make if they had all the info.

I suggest you need to look up dishonest if you think I lied in any way. My point was that and other results in his palmares shows he is a strong climber. So he's not a strong climber, never has been, because he won from a break away? I personally would have thought people would know he won from a breakaway, and I certainly didn't leave that out to reinforce my point, just assumed it was a given. And what about coming 12th in the Giro?

 

[Catwhoorg]

i just know that walsh has alrerady shown signs of being on the sky bandwagon even before he got the sky clubcard.
and it's interesting to ask why sky chose walsh. the whole concept of having a journo on board is in fact kimmage's idea (Garmin 2008) and kimmage wanted to do it last year with sky but was refused.

IIRC it was 2011 (not last year). Kimmage really has a personality issue, and clashes with some folks. Thats the beginning and end of it in my mind. Wiggo especially just doesn't like the guy.


I do think about how I would run a truly clean team. One of my thoughts a couple of years ago, would be to pay for a UKADA representative to attend major training camps overseas.
Then of course comes the realization that such an offer would be taken as a 'bribe' or otherwise influencing the testing, such that the results couldn't be taken seriously.

Not just address back to you sniper, but if you were a clean team, how would you go about meeting those who don't believe you head on ?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Well he distanced de Gendt to take that stage

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xt...lgrande-pajares-cuitunigru_sport#.UT3qBqIbd20

Yes, he did, and that is all you can say. On the other hand, how much time did he loose on the Stelvio?

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xt...lgrande-pajares-cuitunigru_sport#.UT3qBqIbd20

Yes, he did, and that is all you can say. On the other hand, how much time did he loose on the Stelvio?

What's the relevance of that in relation to him doing a job as a domestique as fourth last man? I can't see it at all, sorry.

 

[JimmyFingers]

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xt...lgrande-pajares-cuitunigru_sport#.UT3qBqIbd20

Yes, he did, and that is all you can say. On the other hand, how much time did he loose on the Stelvio?

Are the Stelvio and Prati di Tivo similar climbs?

 

[JimmyFingers]

What's the relevance of that in relation to him doing a job as a domestique as fourth last man? I can't see it at all, sorry.

This +100. He did a job as part of a team, he didn't attack from the bottom of the slope and smash the entire field apart on his own. Again perspective is needed.

 

[Ferminal]

Are the Stelvio and Prati di Tivo similar climbs?

Far more similar than Prati di Tivo and Cuitu Negru.

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

My personal conclusion is that the blood passport is totally useless now. There are now readily available EPO precursor stimulants that can be taken twice weekly orally that riders wont even realize they are taking. Who needs a blood bag program. Motoman is out of a job. These oral EPO stimulants can be mixed in with the vitamin supplements... so everyone, everyone can now ride at 50% Hct without triggering any testing algorythms. On top of that I do believe Sky has some Aicar or weight loss/energy metabolism drug that maybe even acts synergistically with the EPO approach. None of these drugs are testable. So a pretty fool proof program actually. If only they could control the social media better. And that's where Walsh now seems to come in?

The only way UCI/WADA can save this mess is to immediately introduce retrospective sample testing with life long bans. And issue some press realeases on new testing methodologies in advanced development, however vague they may be...They have to act in the strongest possible way, and fast, before the classics season and the GTs kick off...

If these PEDs are untestable it begs the question why is it only Sky who are using them? It's not as if Valverde, Basso and Contador, to name but 3, wouldn't think to put an undetectable drug in their system.

It is obvious that Sky are doing something different to the other teams and if it is a team wide doping program history has told us that they are more than likely to be found out.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Far more similar than Prati di Tivo and Cuitu Negru.

So now I'm confused: is Cataldo a bad climber then?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

What's the relevance of that in relation to him doing a job as a domestique as fourth last man? I can't see it at all, sorry.

It is for me, since I overestimated Dario's abilities it seems.

But as you say, when the fourth - actually third - domestique drops Evans after going flatout and softwheels 50 seconds behind Evans across the finishline he has made some marginal gains in comparison to last year.

Are the Stelvio and Prati di Tivo similar climbs?

Jimmy, it was your claim he was such a great climber pointing at that Vuelta win. I merely want to point out he was nowhere to be seen on the Mortirolo/Stelvio.

 

[thehog]

So now I'm confused: is Cataldo a bad climber then?

Cataldo is not as good as Cotaldo

 

[dolophonic]

Ok but we're not debating whether he can win a GT or not, but whether he's a strong climber, and winning a queen stage, whether in a breakaway or not, is a strong indicator. I also suggest you factor in the nature of the Cuitu Negri, it was utterly brutal.

This was the fourth stage of a one week stage race. Sky were unimpressive in the TTT, weren't interested in the sprints so just kept put of trouble, then unleashed their climbing elite in the last 14k of a stage they otherwise did very little in. Cataldo finished the climb in 26th after setting a fierce pace early on and putting himself into the red.

It wasn't a super-human performance.

No but it was pretty dominating ! even you have to see the reality that they are easily controlling the peloton in two races.. no?

 

[mattghg]

what space?
why?
Sky pays Walsh a trip to Tenerife and Walsh is gonna do what exactly?

The same thing he's been doing FOR YEARS building up a deserved anti-doping reputation.

it's not kimmage. and for good reasons. they don't like kimmage.
they denied kimmage on the Tour last year, remember?

check kimmage's twitter, for instance.
unlike walsh he's not shoving his suspicion under the table.

sky are going for walsh, and I think that is a win-win situation.
i think walsh is on the bandwagon.
i hope he proves me wrong.

You mean, you hope he agress with you, otherwise he MUST be on the bandwagon. Yawn.

IIRC it was 2011 (not last year). Kimmage really has a personality issue, and clashes with some folks. Thats the beginning and end of it in my mind. Wiggo especially just doesn't like the guy.

This.

 

[sniper]

My personal conclusion is that the blood passport is totally useless now. There are now readily available EPO precursor stimulants that can be taken twice weekly orally that riders wont even realize they are taking. Who needs a blood bag program. Motoman is out of a job. These oral EPO stimulants can be mixed in with the vitamin supplements... so everyone, everyone can now ride at 50% Hct without triggering any testing algorythms. On top of that I do believe Sky has some Aicar or weight loss/energy metabolism drug that maybe even acts synergistically with the EPO approach. None of these drugs are testable. So a pretty fool proof program actually. If only they could control the social media better. And that's where Walsh now seems to come in?

plausible guess. expect very little critical sounds to come from walsh's feather.

The only way UCI/WADA can save this mess is to immediately introduce retrospective sample testing with life long bans. And issue some press realeases on new testing methodologies in advanced development, however vague they may be...They have to act in the strongest possible way, and fast, before the classics season and the GTs kick off...

UCI are enjoying how Rabobank and Lance are currently usurping all the media's attention. They won't feel a strong need to act now. All eyes on the past.

 

[sniper]

The same thing he's been doing FOR YEARS building up a deserved anti-doping reputation.

You mean, you hope he agress with you, otherwise he MUST be on the bandwagon. Yawn.

This.

walsh said he believes sky/wiggo are clean. that's a bias right there. objectively he can't know. as an anti-doping reporter he shouldn't say that.

of course they don't like kimmage. that's my whole point.

btw: you said 'watch this space'. what did you mean?

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

It is for me, since I overestimated Dario's abilities it seems.

But as you say, when the fourth - actually third - domestique drops Evans after going flatout and softwheels 50 seconds behind Evans across the finishline he has made some marginal gains in comparison to last year.
Jimmy, it was your claim he was such a great climber pointing at that Vuelta win. I merely want to point out he was nowhere to be seen on the Mortirolo/Stelvio.

Evans was51st yesterday beaten 7.44 minutes. Using his performance as a benchmark is 100% irrelevant.