Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Moose McKnuckles]

Did you see him attempt to take on Alberto on Sunday? He got a little aggressive there. Soon he’ll be chasing down Ag2R riders and taunting them.

The Froomba almost swept Kreuziger off the road.

Froome is a such a completely laughable fraud. Even Hincapie's win on Pla d'Adet was more plausible than this guy's BS career, and that "victory" was a hoot.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

As others have said....at this point, after 20 years of lying about doping, it's up to SKY to PROVE they ARE clean...

This is true in the Clinic, but the Clinic counts for very little in matters of any importance. In the real world the burden of proof is the other way round, so someone needs to come up with a positive test or a credible eye witness account or three, to prove to any meaningful degree that there is doping.

 

[Benotti69]

This is true in the Clinic, but the Clinic counts for very little in matters of any importance. In the real world the burden of proof is the other way round, so someone needs to come up with a positive test or a credible eye witness account or three, to prove to any meaningful degree that there is doping.

According to the amount of skybots in here it registers big in the matters of importance to Sky it would seem.

As to credible eye witness, we are watching it. After watching cycling over the last 25 years most fans can spot the doping at 250 metres to go.

 

[thehog]

This is true in the Clinic, but the Clinic counts for very little in matters of any importance. In the real world the burden of proof is the other way round, so someone needs to come up with a positive test or a credible eye witness account or three, to prove to any meaningful degree that there is doping.

No its not.

The burden of proof is only for criminal cases.

By the very fact there is a bio passport demonstrates that cyclists dope and they cannot be trusted to ride clean.

You have to measure their markers to ensure they don’t dope. The fact that 20 years of systemic doping has destroyed the sport despite insistence that its clean shows that doping is a still a big problem.

The entire Pro peloton is under suspicion. You know this.

There is no such thing as a “burden of proof” – where are you getting that from?!

 

[The Hitch]

Thats the way it works if you want to strip people of titles in courts, but in the world of discussion, you cant eliminate suspicion against riders the way Armstrong fans did for years just by camping out on the "never tested positive" sign.

And the they are doping argument is certainly stronger than the other side. Its the more likely scenario.

 

[peterst6906]

This is true in the Clinic, but the Clinic counts for very little in matters of any importance. In the real world the burden of proof is the other way round, so someone needs to come up with a positive test or a credible eye witness account or three, to prove to any meaningful degree that there is doping.

Perhaps at this point in the history of cycling, the burden of proof should be switched around.

However, the official process for proving doping aside, there is a lot more that teams can do to show they are clean, just like other companies adopt policies that go beyond legislative requirements because they feel it is the right thing to do morally and ethically.

Sky are definitely amongst the group of teams that irrespective of the systems in place, could (and probably should) set the bar higher in terms of transparency and openness in an attempt to help turn the very widely held view about doping in cycling around.

 

[thehog]

Perhaps at this point in the history of cycling, the burden of proof should be switched around.

However, the official process for proving doping aside, there is a lot more that teams can do to show they are clean, just like other companies adopt policies that go beyond legislative requirements because they feel it is the right thing to do morally and ethically.

Sky are definitely amongst the group of teams that irrespective of the systems in place, could (and probably should) set the bar higher in terms of transparency and openness in an attempt to help turn the very widely held view about doping in cycling around.

Plausible deniability.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Perhaps at this point in the history of cycling, the burden of proof should be switched around.

However, the official process for proving doping aside, there is a lot more that teams can do to show they are clean, just like other companies adopt policies that go beyond legislative requirements because they feel it is the right thing to do morally and ethically.

Sky are definitely amongst the group of teams that irrespective of the systems in place, could (and probably should) set the bar higher in terms of transparency and openness in an attempt to help turn the very widely held view about doping in cycling around.

Given that they built their PR foundation on openness and cleanliness, I'd say that there's no probably about it. At this point, if they want their schtick to be taken seriously they NEED to be setting the bar higher in terms of transparency and openness. At least higher than they're doing (sticking their heads in the sand and refusing to talk to journos who want to ask tough questions).

 

[BroDeal]

Plausible deniability.

It is not very plausible. This is the team that did not want Kimmage anywhere near. It is led by a hypocrite that criticized Landis for rumors of him having a drinking problem when the rider himself actually has a drinking problem.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

This is true in the Clinic, but the Clinic counts for very little in matters of any importance. In the real world the burden of proof is the other way round, so someone needs to come up with a positive test or a credible eye witness account or three, to prove to any meaningful degree that there is doping.

So what are you here? Serious question, why?

If that standard is what you hold then why even visit here - just check the front page of CN every day, if there is no story about a Sky positive dope test then you can take comfort that they are clean. No need to consult made up graphs, VAM, or read people googling skills on 'Cotaldo'.

 

[Granville57]

This is true in the Clinic, but the Clinic counts for very little in matters of any importance.

But...but...but...this is The Clinic. So therefore...

 

[the sceptic]

So what are you here? Serious question, why?

If that standard is what you hold then why even visit here - just check the front page of CN every day, if there is no story about a Sky positive dope test then you can take comfort that they are clean. No need to consult made up graphs, VAM, or read people googling skills on 'Cotaldo'.

Exactly. Its like this forum is a magnet for all the skybots.

 

[thegrimpeur]

I agree that the most likely scenario here is that Sky is doping, but I would really like to know what people think about certain riders that hasn't really had that meteoric rise.

I'm a norwegian, so obviously I find it difficult to see EBH as a doper, especially since he has always shown immense, raw talent, while still not what you could call absolute world class. Lövqvist is another guy who has always seemed to have a clear stance against doping. Thoughts?

 

[the sceptic]

I agree that the most likely scenario here is that Sky is doping, but I would really like to know what people think about certain riders that hasn't really had that meteoric rise.

I'm a norwegian, so obviously I find it difficult to see EBH as a doper, especially since he has always shown immense, raw talent, while still not what you could call absolute world class. Lövqvist is another guy who has always seemed to have a clear stance against doping. Thoughts?

Funny that those two guys according to Bailsford a couple of years ago were the two most talented riders on the team. But the marginal gains dont seem to be working on them for some reason. Considering how much Wiggo, Froome-dawg, Porte etc have improved and how little EBH and TL have improved in comparison id say its likely they are not on the juice.

 

[BroDeal]

I agree that the most likely scenario here is that Sky is doping, but I would really like to know what people think about certain riders that hasn't really had that meteoric rise.

I'm a norwegian, so obviously I find it difficult to see EBH as a doper, especially since he has always shown immense, raw talent, while still not what you could call absolute world class. Lövqvist is another guy who has always seemed to have a clear stance against doping. Thoughts?

I don't think many teams run teamwide programs. It has not been that way for a long time. Instead there is a small group within a team that get program "A" while the rest of the team gets program "B". Even the doping docs and support is likely to be external to the team these days. Landis showed that a rider can arrange most of this stuff on his own. and the top Rabobank riders joined forces with each other to set up their own private system.

Sky's Gt team could be on one program while its classics team could be on another.

 

[Granville57]

Sky's Gt team could be on one program while its classics team could be on another.

One program for dominating uphill and on the flats; the other for dominating the flats and going uphill.

 

[Benotti69]

I agree that the most likely scenario here is that Sky is doping, but I would really like to know what people think about certain riders that hasn't really had that meteoric rise.

I'm a norwegian, so obviously I find it difficult to see EBH as a doper, especially since he has always shown immense, raw talent, while still not what you could call absolute world class. Lövqvist is another guy who has always seemed to have a clear stance against doping. Thoughts?

Who can tell? When it finally comes out about Sky ( see Festina, USPS, Op Puerto, T-Mobile, Rabo etc) we will know.

Just dont be surprised or shocked if they doped.

 

[MartinGT]

I agree that the most likely scenario here is that Sky is doping, but I would really like to know what people think about certain riders that hasn't really had that meteoric rise.

I'm a norwegian, so obviously I find it difficult to see EBH as a doper, especially since he has always shown immense, raw talent, while still not what you could call absolute world class. Lövqvist is another guy who has always seemed to have a clear stance against doping. Thoughts?

IMO EBH is clean and TL is too. If EBH started putting on performances like the Dawg, well, then its clear to me.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I agree that the most likely scenario here is that Sky is doping, but I would really like to know what people think about certain riders that hasn't really had that meteoric rise.

I'm a norwegian, so obviously I find it difficult to see EBH as a doper, especially since he has always shown immense, raw talent, while still not what you could call absolute world class. Lövqvist is another guy who has always seemed to have a clear stance against doping. Thoughts?

When you look back at Sky 2010, and look at them now they are unrecognizable. Thats when they spent their gazillions on talent (EBH, TL) and experience (Flecha, Barry) and they actually did alright in 2010 but as they didn't perform in the Tour that year failed their own much hyped arrival.

I saw EBH ride when he was with the Maxbo (sp?) team and it was obvious he was very good. He had a steady rise in HTC, so no - i dont see anything suspicious about him.

Sky have focused all efforts on GTs, they are now getting that dialed in - I would expect them to start looking at their Classic squad in the same way soon- not sure when EBHs contract is up, but it will be interesting to see if EBH will be renewed with Sky.

 

[MartinGT]

When you look back at Sky 2010, and look at them now they are unrecognizable. Thats when they spent their gazillions on talent (EBH, TL) and experience (Flecha, Barry) and they actually did alright in 2010 but as they didn't perform in the Tour that year failed their own much hyped arrival.

I saw EBH ride when he was with the Maxbo (sp?) team and it was obvious he was very good. He had a steady rise in HTC, so no - i dont see anything suspicious about him.

Sky have focused all efforts on GTs, they are now getting that dialed in - I would expect them to start looking at their Classic squad in the same way soon- not sure when EBHs contract is up, but it will be interesting to see if EBH will be renewed with Sky.

Depends if he gets with the programme, ala the Dawg

 

[thehog]

Depends if he gets with the programme, ala the Dawg

The Dawg program is only for the Dawg!

Never go full-dawg!

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

One program for dominating uphill and on the flats; the other for dominating the flats and going uphill.

Well, didnt the sir David say he wanted to be the Barcelona of cycling?

Pass and move, Bill Shankly is rolling around in his grave.
[or how do you translate that in English]

 

[uphillstruggle]

IMO EBH is clean and TL is too. If EBH started putting on performances like the Dawg, well, then its clear to me.

They are the two I have faith in. EBH has not really improved since his htc days and seems believable. Lokvist was better than Wiggo in 2010 (possibly both riding clean) then was basically ostracised from the team after 2010. Also TL tends to struggle in the last half of a GT after being able to keep up in the first week or so. Not ride just as fast in stage 20 as in stage 2 like the rest of them.

 

[Parrulo]

so many marginal gains and froome is yet to see the inside of a wind tunnel. . . .

https://twitter.com/inrng/status/311174090885066753

i imagine they are afraid he starts flying after they send him to a wind tunnel

 

[The Hitch]

so many marginal gains and froome is yet to see the inside of a wind tunnel. . . .

https://twitter.com/inrng/status/311174090885066753

i imagine they are afraid he starts flying after they send him to a wind tunnel

So the reasons Sky are so good are because they bring the talents up through the track programme and they have wind tunnels.

But their piece de resistance, the greatest of all miracles, who shows everyone in the peloton, they can be tdf winners too under the right team, - Chris Froome, did not come from the track, and does not use wind tunnels.

So, what is Sky's reason for him becoming so good again?