Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[JimmyFingers]

So Ag2R are clean then?

 

[thehog]

So Ag2R are clean then?

Yes Jimmy. They're running a team wide systematic program hence why they destroyed the field at Paris-Nice.

Of course I know they had a positive.

Nice try.

You are blind Sir. Very blind.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Alright, starting to get a feel for this thread now.

I've seen a lot of people posting objective stuff (among the subjective, to be sure), but little attention to the objective points.

Oh, fanboys... I know how this ends...

 

[JimmyFingers]

Yes Jimmy. They're running a team wide systematic program hence why they destroyed the field at Paris-Nice.

Of course I know they had a positive.

Nice try.

You are blind Sir. Very blind.

So how rock solid is their ZTP against Sky's? You are vouching for the fact they're not systematically doping? So I can be confident AgR are clean as whistle? Which means by directly comparing their results to those of Team Sky is definitive proof. They didn't win at Paris-Nice which means whoever did must be dopers. In fact everyone that finished above them

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

La Planche des Belles Filles, 7. etappi | VAM 1850 m/h, 6,48 W/kg [16 minutes]
La Toussuire, 11. etappi | VAM 1461 m/h, 5,60 W/kg
Col de Peyresourde, 16. etappi | VAM 1611 m/h, 5,99 W/kg
Col de Peyresourde, 17. etappi | VAM 1599 m/h, 5,85 W/kg


The nearly 1-hour TT is a good indication of Brajkovic's Functional Threshold Power (FTP) of 358w (5.6 w/kg). FTP represents a rider's maximum sustainable power output for a 1-hour maximum effort. [link provided]

FGL, argue the numbers, not facile ad hominen remarks.

358 watts is NOT 5.6 w/kg for Brajkovic. It is at least 5.9 w/kg. The man weighed 60.5 kg in may 2012.

 

[mastersracer]

Me just guesses putting 1 minute 30 on Bugno was enough to seal the deal back then. The only possible threat could have come from Breukink, but helais, he and his team had some bad stored EPO the day before that TT.

Done deal. If you have any historical knowledge on cycling you would say the same.

IF you have any historical knowledge of cycling, you'd know deals are rarely sealed on stage 8 of a Tour. Indurain was over 2 minutes behind Greg after that stage and had a terrible stage 12, losing almost 7 minutes on that stage and was 5th on GC almost 5 minutes back. It was the brutal stage 13 a huge mountain stage where he gained all the time back. It only appears slow to people who don't know the difference between a 7.5 hour marathon over 4 1-HC climbs vs. the 2012 route.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Alright, starting to get a feel for this thread now.

I've seen a lot of people posting objective stuff (among the subjective, to be sure), but little attention to the objective points.

Oh, fanboys... I know how this ends...

I look forward to your subjective assessment of the objectivity in this thread

 

[ferryman]

He's stopped doping by joining a team with Contador run by Riis. Oh, wait a minute.

He's stopped something. The Sky train that he drove last year is now leaving him 2 kliks down the mountain and fook all help to Contador. Oh, wait a long minute

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

I look forward to your subjective assessment of the objectivity in this thread

There is no objectivity to this thread.

Since Sir Dave is so profoundly throwing out the subjective, and it's being tossed around so roundly, I'm gonna hold off for a bit.

Let me know when it comes back to reality, Jimmy.

Something objective from Sky would be nice. It's in their court, right?

 

[martinvickers]

The other teams are not declaring ZTD. The other teams didn't make a lot of noise about being clean then hire loads of dodgy people that they then needed to sack.

When it gets hard for ya Jimmy ya keep saying "the other teams, the other teams".

This is the Sky thread. We have threads on all the others and their doping too.

Surely by membership of the MPCC, that's exactly what they are doing?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

IF you have any historical knowledge of cycling, you'd know deals are rarely sealed on stage 8 of a Tour. Indurain was over 2 minutes behind Greg after that stage and had a terrible stage 12, losing almost 7 minutes on that stage and was 5th on GC almost 5 minutes back. It was the brutal stage 13 a huge mountain stage where he gained all the time back. It only appears slow to people who don't know the difference between a 7.5 hour marathon over 4 1-HC climbs vs. the 2012 route.

You really should look up the effects of EPO skymaster. Just like your maths you seem to be a little of. Never mind, we know this for some time.

At least I know Charly Mottet won that Tour, on breakaways.

But let us go back on topic, ur skyfriends.

 

[martinvickers]

My friend that is witless

Jimmy. Honestly. Ignore button. You'll thank me for it.

MV

 

[JimmyFingers]

There is no objectivity to this thread.

Since Sir Dave is so profoundly throwing out the subjective, and it's being tossed around so roundly, I'm gonna hold off for a bit.

Let me know when it comes back to reality, Jimmy.

Something objective from Sky would be nice. It's in their court, right?

And yet you're comfortable talking about objectivity and using the term 'fanboy' in the same post?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Jimmy. Honestly. Ignore button. You'll thank me for it.

MV

I make a policy of having no-one on ignore, I mainly go with a more ad-hoc policy of selective reading.

 

[martinvickers]

Really? You think I want the data? I wouldn't have any idea what to do with it. First plan would be to print it out, and start the papier mache - I want a pinata, b*tches!

Don't be an idiot. Just release the data so there is some form of independent oversight vis a vis the BioPass the UCI keeps trumpeting.

The problem with that can already be seen in the various rows between Krebs, acoggan and wiggo. No amount of data release will shift people's position on this - they will continue, on all sides, to cherrypick the data that works for them.

Because the honest truth is that many people here don't believe Sky act in good faith. and that's fine, it's a respectable position. But some people here, frankly, don't act in good faith either.

They've been proven to be ineffective at monitoring AAFs, so how about someone independent gets on it. Maybe Ashenden, maybe @veloclinic, maybe Vayer, maybe AAF, maybe even WADA.

If your boys in black and blue have nothing to hide, then it should be a go, right?

Right?

No problem in theory - but I would argue that somebody other than ashenden would have to be found. I respect his work, but at the end, you can't both be an advocate and a judge.

 

[JimmyFingers]

The problem with that can already be seen in the various rows between Krebs, acoggan and wiggo. No amount of data release will shift people's position on this - they will continue, on all sides, to cherrypick the data that works for them.

Well put, that was precisely the sort of chaos I was alluding to

 

[martinvickers]

I make a policy of having no-one on ignore, I mainly go with a more ad-hoc policy of selective reading.

Yeah, I used to do that too. Ah those salad days when i was green of judgement...

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

The problem with that can already be seen in the various rows between Krebs, acoggan and wiggo. No amount of data release will shift people's position on this - they will continue, on all sides, to cherrypick the data that works for them.

Because the honest truth is that many people here don't believe Sky act in good faith. and that's fine, it's a respectable position. But some people here, frankly, don't act in good faith either.




No problem in theory - but I would argue that somebody other than ashenden would have to be found. I respect his work, but at the end, you can't both be an advocate and a judge.

This is the point. No analysis, no interpretation as to what's possible, no wattage, nothing.

Just consistent blood values. That's it. Fill a vial every two weeks, have it posted. Only blood.

We should talk to JV about this, since he's the vanguard.

I may be as ignorant as I've been told I am, but this seems simple.

Simple, right?

 

[martinvickers]

This is the point. No analysis, no interpretation as to what's possible, no wattage, nothing.

Just consistent blood values. That's it. Fill a vial every two weeks, have it posted. Only blood.

We should talk to JV about this, since he's the vanguard.

I may be as ignorant as I've been told I am, but this seems simple.

Simple, right?

I would love to think so, but honestly? no, i wouldn't trust clinic regulars on both sides to be honest about the numbers (and how pathetic is it that so much of this place is now basically a one story gang war).

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

I would love to think so, but honestly? no, i wouldn't trust clinic regulars on both sides to be honest about the numbers (and how pathetic is it that so much of this place is now basically a one story gang war).

Why in the h*ll would values/results go to the Clinic?

If that's not what you mean, then I'm assuming you're alluding to interpretation of the numbers.

F*ck that! Numbers are numbers. That's the whole idea. Track the base and high values for months on end, and then you get the profile.

With all the hemo-science being bounced around, I'm pretty sure there are some folks outside of the BioPass that can figure it out objectively.

Simple, right?

Post it, Magnificent Sir David Brailsford...

 

[mastersracer]

Why in the h*ll would values/results go to the Clinic?

If that's not what you mean, then I'm assuming you're alluding to interpretation of the numbers.

F*ck that! Numbers are numbers. That's the whole idea. Track the base and high values for months on end, and then you get the profile.

With all the hemo-science being bounced around, I'm pretty sure there are some folks outside of the BioPass that can figure it out objectively.

Simple, right?

Post it, Magnificent Sir David Brailsford...

There are threads on this forum you should examine before making posts like this. Wiggins, Ryder, and others.

 

[lemoogle]

Sorry this is farcical. What is 'official data'? Who here is the clinic uses it exactly? You? Show where you use 'official data' to prove any of your points.

And please show me where I 'keep using completely unofficial data' to prove mine? I very rarely if ever talk in numbers, I know I'm not qualified to remark on it.

Unlike you obviously. So pray, do tell all, I can't wait.

*sigh* you realise that what I meant was that if you're saying the clinic can't make sense of blood results then that should apply to you and watt/kg as well as your comments on how froome is within the limits of the natural.

Forgive me if the word "unofficial" was perhaps not the best in this case. It was only but one word in my whole poin.

Listen let's be honest here , we're all wasting our time, if sky posted their blood results today and they literally had EPO, Aicar or whatever else written on it you would still try and convince us we have no clue about anything and that sky are clean.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

There are threads on this forum you should examine before making posts like this. Wiggins, Ryder, and others.

Point me in the right direction...

Wasn't aware of explicit blood info being posted.

 

[MatParker117]

Ag2R have all the details of their anti doping policy on their website including recruitment. They have also opened a sports science university.

I guess JV would suggest they haven't recruited properly because they don't win



That's ZERO tolerance.

It's not PR like Sky. It's the rules.

http://www.cyclisme.ag2rlamondiale.fr/english/anti-doping/recruitment.asp

To be fair there was nothing concrete about Sky's staff until well after they were hired.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

To be fair there was nothing concrete about Sky's staff until well after they were hired.

I do believe that's sort of the point.

Zero Tolerance!