Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[badboygolf16v]

yeah. they get to bank their 8 cortisone TUE's also

According to Peters, Geert thought it was wrong to issue cortisone TUEs.

The real reason Leinders left. Agitating for joining the MPCC..?

 

[mattghg]

According to Peters, Geert thought it was wrong to issue cortisone TUEs.

No. What Leinders objected to (according to Peters in Walsh's article) was the use of a TUE against the team's stated policy not to request them 'if a rider, suffering from asthma, got into trouble with pollen'. Apparently he objected to Peters not applying the team's rules evenly, not to the use of TUEs per se.

Also, I don't know if the TUE in question was for cortisone or something else.

 

[blackcat]

Now, does that mean automatically that Sky is doping and, more specifically, BC has some role in Sky's doping? No. Is it possible BC has some role protecting Sky? Absolutely. Is it likely? I don't know.

in the last decade doping in cycling has become a six degrees, heck, lets make it seven, seven degrees of Kevin Bacon and Pause-able de-liability.

if you want evidence of a threshold to deny someones liberty in a criminal court, that is a threshold too high and you get Armstrong. because the threshold effectively looks askance when someone does the landis levi withdrawal in the sanctity of your own home, and then re-infuse in the privacy of your hotel room where all mouse holes are duct-taped over.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

http://www.teammtnqhubeka.com/?news=ronde-van-drenthe-the-hardest-day-in-my-life

Our training philosophy is simple; “Train to the demands of the race”. This is why our athletes race with their SRM Training Systems, and why we spend significant time analyzing the data.

Why is this important? Well if you don’t know it, you won’t train it. If you don’t train it, you won’t have it when you need it. And then it’s “Kaboom – race over”! So, while doing fifty sprint efforts in a training session might sound like unnecessary self-flagellation to some, it just may be what our athletes needs to prepare for success in Europe.

Seems Pro Conti Teams like MTN also train as they race, did they just copy that from team SKY or is that marginal gains also a red herring?

http://www.biscuittinmedia.com/team-sky-srm-richie-porte-robo-racer/

But did you ride on feel or your SRM numbers? “I think I rode it on…to be honest? I rode it on feel and then I had a look at my SRM and it said close to 400 and that was it, job done I guess…” confessed Porte rather sheepishly.

5,9w/k/h
Of course again the believable number. No one in the car said to him 'Ritchie, you are on 6.5w/k, slow a bit down man! You are going to destroy Brad's time of last year, in shyte conditions'.

 

[JimmyFingers]

You hit on something that gets lost with the Sky program. Like USA Cycling/USPS, the national federation (BC) is the Sky program. Which, is nice when it comes time for anti-doping enforcement.

Now, does that mean automatically that Sky is doping and, more specifically, BC has some role in Sky's doping? No. Is it possible BC has some role protecting Sky? Absolutely. Is it likely? I don't know.

As posted in the MsR thread, Sky now has two classics leaders. Which is suspicious. Dropping in out of nowhere to clobber the field at MsR is really suspicious.

As I am still a cycling fan, Stannard's ride was part of a great race.

Unmarked strongman at the front of the field that went for it. He is also a strong rider when the conditions are like that. If you watched his pull at the worlds last year you would know he has a massive engine and is especially strong over 200k. No doubt it raises suspicions, but everything Sky does raising suspicions so I frankly don't give a damn: it was a stunning race, and Stannard's was the ride of the day. Definitely one of my favourite riders

 

[hrotha]

Of course, every individual case might be explained away in a believable manner. When you put them all together, though...

 

[JimmyFingers]

Of course, every individual case might be explained away in a believable manner. When you put them all together, though...

And yet you have EBH, or is he just an outlier? Oh wait, he's not on the programme....

It's amazing how people can look at Sky, watch them race and discern the inner workings of the team, or give prescient insights to how they are going to perform

 

[hrotha]

And yet you have EBH, or is he just an outlier? Oh wait, he's not on the programme....

It's amazing how people can look at Sky, watch them race and discern the inner workings of the team, or give prescient insights to how they are going to perform

No one has claimed to know. We take the scarce data available to us and analyze it. EBH may or may not be on the program. I'm inclined to think he isn't, but that's my opinion, not necessarily the opinion of all, or most, Sky cynics.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I think it might be a good time to remind people: when you are on or slightly off the front of the race, and there is noone in front of you, threatening your yellow jersey, you do not have to ride at your limit. You just have to dominate the guys behind you.

Just because Wiggins and Froome are not riding "implausible" numbers does not necessarily mean they can't.

Consider that in the final TT, Wiggins smashed everyone, including Froome, to the tune of 6.5W/kg for over an hour.

And whilst I agree you can't determine effort based on facial expression or body language, I think you need to consider Wiggins wasn't collapsing post-TT, but rather he was energetically punching his fist in an aggressive victory salute.

 

[JimmyFingers]

No one has claimed to know. We take the scarce data available to us and analyze it. EBH may or may not be on the program. I'm inclined to think he isn't, but that's my opinion, not necessarily the opinion of all, or most, Sky cynics.

This I can accept and respect. My opinion is there isn't a programme, that if the riders are doping they are doing it on their own. If there was a programme it would be illogical not to have one of your star riders on it.

 

[JimmyFingers]

I think it might be a good time to remind people: when you are on or slightly off the front of the race, and there is noone in front of you, threatening your yellow jersey, you do not have to ride at your limit. You just have to dominate the guys behind you.

Just because Wiggins and Froome are not riding "implausible" numbers does not necessarily mean they can't.

Consider that in the final TT, Wiggins smashed everyone, including Froome, to the tune of 6.5W/kg for over an hour.

And whilst I agree you can't determine effort based on facial expression or body language, I think you need to consider Wiggins wasn't collapsing post-TT, but rather he was energetically punching his fist in an aggressive victory salute.

Really? I don't think you have consider that at all, a complete and utter red herring

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I agree with Nibbles: drop the radios and the PMs in the bus and race au naturale.

 

[hrotha]

This I can accept and respect. My opinion is there isn't a programme, that if the riders are doping they are doing it on their own. If there was a programme it would be illogical not to have one of your star riders on it.

Moncoutié was a star at Cofidis. A Tour winner hopeful.

 

[maltiv]

This I can accept and respect. My opinion is there isn't a programme, that if the riders are doping they are doing it on their own. If there was a programme it would be illogical not to have one of your star riders on it.

I see what you mean, but don't forget that even if there is a team-wide program, an individual can still choose to refuse...Moncoutie wasn't part of Cofidis doping program, for example. Sure, he didn't say anything either (he must have known), but that was probably because he was a shy person who didn't want that kind of attention, or maybe he just couldn't dare to say anything. He just wanted to ride his bike with no drama involved.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Moncoutié was a star at Cofidis. A Tour winner hopeful.

The exception rather than the rule though

 

[hrotha]

The exception rather than the rule though

How do we know? Moncoutie lived through an era of team-wide doping, in the most literal sense. That people who were deemed unwilling or unready to get on the program wouldn't be let on it, in an era when teams have to be a lot more careful about that kind of stuff, makes perfect sense.

By all accounts, Riis sent his star riders to Fuentes. And yet he didn't send Jaksche, who was a very important rider in the structure. Furthermore, no Sastre-Fuentes links have surfaced, which is odd if he was actually sent there. That to me suggests key riders at CSC were left to their own devices (with Riis's full knowledge, no doubt).

Consider Astana '09. Seven needles. Two missing: one for Leipheimer (who had withdrawn); the other for Contador, maybe? Being allowed to do his own thing independently from the team program? Armstrong not wanting him in?

Consider US Postal and how they introduced their riders to the program (Zabriskie, Barry).

Consider Illes Balears. They sent Mancebo to Fuentes, but apparently no one else.

 

[JimmyFingers]

That's it though: there is no real rhyme or reason to this, impossible to predict or discern anything but pure conjecture, particularly when based just on performance. As you say, 'scarce data' and historical examples is all we have to go on.

 

[SundayRider]

My hunch would be that Sky aren't team wide or team organised doping but more of a selective rider doping around the key races. Remember the first couple of LA's tour it was only him and a select few climbers that got the EPO.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

It's amazing how people can look at Sky, watch them race and discern the inner workings of the team, or give prescient insights to how they are going to perform

Its not only that Jimmy, it is also the info that keeps coming out.

Michael Rogers saying he was on his best numbers ever, better than when he was training with Sassi? Kerrison must be a magician then.
http://www.biscuittinmedia.com/tim-kerrison-training-wiggins/

In as much as Team Sky has taken rider support and preparation to new levels (previously, arguably, only the Italian Mapei team had got close), we thought it prudent to ask him to outline his job.

Not arrogant at all.

Many riders are riding with SRM Powermeters, so we can measure power, speed, heart rate, cadence, altitude, temperature, so there is plenty of information out there, although it’s not necessarily managed as well as it could be. And that’s always one of the challenges when technology advances and the amount of information you have access to grows, the challenge is what you do with all this information. So it took us a while to get on top of that as well.

It took trips to Tenerife to be exactly.

The number one reason we go there is that it’s a climbing camp, it happens to be at altitude and one of the things we expect to see is an acclimatization to the altitude because one of the demands of the Tour is that you have to be able to perform at altitude. So we don’t go there as an altitude training camp to stimulate red blood cell production, we go there to adapt to be able to perform at altitude. Then there’s just the effect you get from being at a training camp, you are very isolated, there’s nothing you can do there except train and recover. And finally there’s heat acclimatization, it’s generally a lot hotter than anywhere else in the rest of Europe and that’s something else you need to be able to cope with at the Tour and we know that was something that Brad struggled with during the 2012 Tour. He’s now, of our riders, one of the best ones at handling the heat.”

That must be why the Classic Squad was sent to Tenerife last month: Vlaanderen/Roubaix/Amstel/Liege are all at high altitude.

After our first year as a team in 2010 we sat down and had a look at everything – we didn’t have a fantastic Tour in 2010 – so we sat down and looked at the areas where Brad was strong and where he needed work and some of the key things was that he had always been strong in time trialling – of course he comes from a pursuiting background his TT was strong and the balance between his TT and climbing needed some work so we did a lot of work on his climbing and one of the elements that’s important there is his power to weight ratio so he’s changed a bit.

Uh, he improved huge on both, never seen before. From top ten TT to the undisputed numero one, yet improving on his climbing. Never seen before. Or, wait, we had that Texas dude, liked Tenerife as well.

 

[Galic Ho]

EBH needs to go to Garmin. They let riders earn cash and not be obliged to dope over there. FDJ might be a better option. Let him go on lone long breaks in boring flat stages at the Tour.

If EBH got on the Dawg program he'd be close to a Tour winner.

But the boy just doesn't want inject his own blood.

The Dawg mustn't be able to look him in the eye.

They need to cut him loose. If he's not going to borg it up then get someone who will. Like Stannard.

I thought Stannard was the Wiggins clone after looking at him during the Olympics. Junior Wiggins on paper. Then I saw the chart progression of his career. Note where he was on that. Froome level...okay a smidgen higher, but still garbage.

So when he didn't win, it was a good day. I don't like Sagan rubbing his victories in the faces of his competition but I'll take him any day over another Froome type guy. Brailsford should never have shown a journalist that chart. EVER. DUMB DUMB DUMB MOVE.

Still gotta give him credit. Finishing near the front in that weather when over half of OPQS were on a bus and Nibali couldn't get going...not for the feint of heart. Takes guts. But I am happy he didn't win. Give him time though. It'll happen. Was never going to beat Chavanel anyway despite what it may have looked like. Chavanel did most of the climb pacing...proof he is stronger.

 

[The Hitch]

The - why wouldn't they dope ebh argument cam easily be turned around into - why don't they marginal gains ebh. Afterall sky do aknowledge their riders undergo epic transformations after joining sky. Bailsford said he wants the training gains to be so large they match gains that can be acheived from doping. Why aren't these gain working on Hagen?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Its not only that Jimmy, it is also the info that keeps coming out.

Michael Rogers saying he was on his best numbers ever, better than when he was training with Sassi? Kerrison must be a magician then.
http://www.biscuittinmedia.com/tim-kerrison-training-wiggins/

Not arrogant at all.
It took trips to Tenerife to be exactly.
That must be why the Classic Squad was sent to Tenerife last month: Vlaanderen/Roubaix/Amstel/Liege are all at high altitude.

Uh, he improved huge on both, never seen before. From top ten TT to the undisputed numero one, yet improving on his climbing. Never seen before. Or, wait, we had that Texas dude, liked Tenerife as well.

Sooo, performance, scarce data and historical examples...please see the answer I gave above

 

[Galic Ho]

The - why wouldn't they dope ebh argument cam easily be turned around into - why don't they marginal gains ebh. Afterall sky do aknowledge their riders undergo epic transformations after joining sky. Bailsford said he wants the training gains to be so large they match gains that can be acheived from doping. Why aren't these gain working on Hagen?

He doesn't repeat 2011, I dare say he will go the way of Lovkvist and away from Sky. It's what happens to all the naturally crap and non hard working guys. Guys who were never ever good.

 

[JimmyFingers]

The - why wouldn't they dope ebh argument cam easily be turned around into - why don't they marginal gains ebh. Afterall sky do aknowledge their riders undergo epic transformations after joining sky. Bailsford said he wants the training gains to be so large they match gains that can be acheived from doping. Why aren't these gain working on Hagen?

Maybe he was doping pre-Sky and now he's off the sauce

That said, he's hardly gone to donkey status, has he? Yesterday's race is a outlier, given the conditions. His 2013 season has barely got going, he was superb at the Tour and third in the Worlds last year.

Stories of his demise may be a little premature

 

[hrotha]

Maybe he was doping pre-Sky and now he's off the sauce

That said, he's hardly gone to donkey status, has he? Yesterday's race is a outlier, given the conditions. His 2013 season has barely got going, he was superb at the Tour and third in the Worlds last year.

Stories of his demise may be a little premature

No one's saying EBH is crap. We're saying he hasn't improved much since his HTC days.