Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

That they were. And obviously they didn't beat the best climbers, as you can't beat yourself up a hill.

They were also the best TT'ers Wallace. Ever seen that before?

 

[Gregory]

They were also the best TT'ers Wallace. Ever seen that before?

Contador 2009

 

[LaFlorecita]

If Sky beat the best climbers, it will be due to making bigger gains in TTs than losses made in the hills. Hardly a big surprise if it happens. Plenty of GT have been won by TTers who minimise losses in the hills.

Logically, Sky cannot beat the best climbers at climbing.

I think they can

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

They were also the best TT'ers Wallace. Ever seen that before?

Yes, but I think it more likely that Wiggo in particular will have to rely on his TT skills to offset losses to better climbers this year.

As has been said quite a few times, last year's Tour field was weak, had few non-dieselable climbs and plenty of TT miles, all of which favoured Wiggo, and not all of these will be repeated this year.

 

[airstream]

Froome will be the stronger climber in the Tour

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

I think they can

Quiz question #1: A group of riders race up a hill. One of them gets to the top first. Who is the best climber on this climb?

Quiz question #2: Who has beaten the best climber?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Quiz question #1: A group of riders race up a hill. One of them gets to the top first. Who is the best climber on this climb?

Quiz question #2: Who has beaten the best climber?

A1: The one who gets to the top first

A2: No one

the thing is we're not talking about "best climbers on a particular climb" but best climbers overall in the entire peloton.

 

[BYOP88]

Quiz question #1: A group of riders race up a hill. One of them gets to the top first. Who is the best climber on this climb?

Quiz question #2: Who has beaten the best climber?

1. Depends, do they have equal sprinting ability?

2. The publicity caravan, TV crews, people working on the race and spectators who are behind the finishing line, medical services/police, there's probably a few more too.

 

[The Hitch]

Contador 2009

Contador beat cancellara by 3 seconds in Annency, but cancellara beat him by 16 i think it was in Monaco so Cancellara was just about the better tter that year.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

The thing is we're not talking about "best climbers on a particular climb" but best climbers overall in the entire peloton.

"Best climber in the entire peloton" is subjective, unfortunately. If you get outclimbed in a particular significant race, then claims made on your behalf to be the best are necessarily highly questionable

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

1. Depends, do they have equal sprinting ability?

All other things equal, the rider with the best uphill sprint will be the better climber one would think.

 

[zigmeister]

According to this thread, Sky train should have been capable of controlling the race on the final climb. Fact is, they were attacked early and often, riders went up the road, Sky fell apart, Wiggins was isolated and relied on other riders to minimize the gaps.

According to Team Sky, that is the "exciting" racing of old that will win you nothing.

Except, it is exactly what happened today, Sky imploded, and only Wiggo who had the free ride on the wheels all the way up had anything left in the tank to keep the time deficit close.

The racing of old, is what will destroy Team Sky's entire gameplan.

Well, that is until Froome and Porte are on the front, and laying down 420w, and there is nothing you can do after an attack but fade back to the group because you imploded shortly thereafter...then yes, the tactic will hold for awhile.

 

[zalacain]

Also does anyone know when that event in Manchester is taking place?

On the seventh of Never

 

[zalacain]

They needed clearance from the govt in respect of market share of media/press ownership. Looked like it was going to be a white wash in News Corps favour then all the News of the World hacking, paying coppers for info, ditching email stuff came out and the govt thought it wouldn't make good press

So why did they let them off with barely a slap on the wrist last week?

 

[del1962]

So why did they let them off with barely a slap on the wrist last week?

I think sending some of their journos to jail is hardly letting them of with a slap of the wrist

As far as last week, it is probably a bad move, as a general rule you want less government control of press.

This is going well off topic though.

 

[Gregory]

Contador beat cancellara by 3 seconds in Annency, but cancellara beat him by 16 i think it was in Monaco so Cancellara was just about the better tter that year.

You're right

 

[DirtyWorks]

So why did they let them off with barely a slap on the wrist last week?

It's a win for everyone. The masses got their public airing, Government regulators look tough with a low-level perp-walk and the elite get to get back to being elite with a little slap on the wrist.

 

[LaFlorecita]

"Best climber in the entire peloton" is subjective, unfortunately. If you get outclimbed in a particular significant race, then claims made on your behalf to be the best are necessarily highly questionable

Is Jelle Vanendert a better climber than Evans, the Schlecks, Contador?

 

[wansteadimp]

It's a win for everyone. The masses got their public airing, Government regulators look tough with a low-level perp-walk and the elite get to get back to being elite with a little slap on the wrist.

Yep, except..... When Rebekah and Coulson are up in the dock the non-Murdoch press is going to go to town on call me Dave.

Surely the best climber in last years Tour was Voekler but his early loses and inability to tt ruled him out.

 

[the sceptic]

Voeckler is only the best the day after the rest days. He uses those days to warm down really well.

 

[Caruut]

He took 2 stages from breaks and a bunch of KoM points. Hardly the best climber.

 

[Avoriaz]

Based on time on mountain stages and medium mountain stages of last year's Tour de France, the result would be:

1. Froome
2. Wiggins @4"
3. Nibali @27"
4. Rolland @2'04"
5. Vandenbroeck @2'27"

Froome would have led nearly all the way (if only mountain stages included), though Scarponi would have worn the jersey after the Porrentruy stage. Voeckler got into some good breaks but lost a massive amount on Froome on the stage to La Toussuire (about 27 minutes), and then another 16 minutes on the final mountain stage. Even without these losses he was behind Froome

So, Froome was the best climber it would seem.

Course skewed a bit as some riders may deliberately lose time in order to be allowed to get into breaks (e.g. Voeckler), though no one would argue that (e.g. Voeckler) was the best climber

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Based on time on mountain stages and medium mountain stages of last year's Tour de France, the result would be:

1. Froome
2. Wiggins @4"
3. Nibali @27"
4. Rolland @2'04"
5. Vandenbroeck @2'27"

Froome would have led nearly all the way (if only mountain stages included), though Scarponi would have worn the jersey after the Porrentruy stage. Voeckler got into some good breaks but lost a massive amount on Froome on the stage to La Toussuire (about 27 minutes), and then another 16 minutes on the final mountain stage. Even without these losses he was behind Froome

So, Froome was the best climber it would seem.

Course skewed a bit as some riders may deliberately lose time in order to be allowed to get into breaks (e.g. Voeckler), though no one would argue that (e.g. Voeckler) was the best climber

It would have been good to see Froome attack Wiggo at the bottom of a long, final climb to see whether his greater explosive power would prevail against the Wiggins turbodiesel. Understandable why this never happened but a shame all the same.

 

[willbick]

Why would an 'explosive' climber attack from a long way out against a 'turbo diesel'? Makes no sense

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Why would an 'explosive' climber attack from a long way out against a 'turbo diesel'? Makes no sense

In the context of Froome vs Wiggins, if Froome had been let off the leash last year and allowed to race Wiggo, then as Wiggo had established TT superiority, Froome would have needed to take serious time out of Wiggo in the hills to win.

He wouldn't do this by marking Wiggo and outsprinting him at end to take 5 or 10 seconds. Even if he did this 5 or 6 times, he'd not make up the TT deficits. He'd have to attack from a long way out and hope the attack "stuck". Sometimes, you have to try something different, as Andy Schleck did in 2011. It didn't work, but he did at least give himself a chance.

There was more than one occasion last year when Froome rode away from Wiggo briefly, but due to team orders, we never got to see if he could press home that advantage or whether Wiggo would simply have TT'd his way back onto Froome's wheel.